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Author Topic:   How Firaxis should cripple the demo

Brother Greg posted 12-02-98 12:23 AM ET
Can't remember if this has been discussed before, but how does everyone reckon that Firaxis should cripple the demo?
Should it me a max no of turns?
Should it limit you to playing on one map?
Should it limit you to one faction only?
Should it limit the tech advances?
Should it not allow you to save/load games?
Or multiples of the above? Or something else completely?
Personally, I think it'll be a limit on the tech and the number of turns. And I think we can take it as a given that we won't get any movies for any secret projects or the like.
Thoughts?
Brother Greg.
Imran Siddiqui posted 12-02-98 12:44 AM ET
I think it should be a limit on turns and one map. You should see how far, technologically you can get, and you should be able to pick your faction to see how their benefits and detriments would work. Just my 2 cents (of course no one cares anyway, what I say).
Imran Siddiqui
Patriot
WAS posted 12-02-98 01:04 AM ET
Imran I disagree, we all care what you think. We are a bunch of sensitive, caring people.
My opinion is limited number of turns and one map, just like Imran said.
By the way, speaking of the demo, today is Dec 1. That means 14 days to go.
Octopus posted 12-02-98 01:16 AM ET
I think limiting the number of turns could be really annoying, especially if your grand strategy was going to pay off at turn n+1.
My prediction is a small map, which is not randomized, with limited science, and limited factions. By keeping a cap on science and the number of factions they can theoretically save on some graphics, so the demo can be smaller. By playing on a single fixed map we'll get a good feel for the game, but it won't be very replayable, so we'll all have to go out an buy the real thing (well, I know all of US will do that, but Firaxis needs to convince everybody ELSE to do it ). In addition, if they fix the map, they can only use a subset of all possible terrains, again saving graphic space (although probably not much...). If they pick the factions that they give us carefully enough (like Believers and Spartans) the game would probably be won or lost by the time you hit the limit. By limiting science, you also limit things like which city improvements you can build, what weapons and stuff you can use when designing your units, etc.
Or, maybe they'll just limit the number of turns .
Spoe posted 12-02-98 01:23 AM ET
Limit the number of turns. That's the answer to how to make ourselves stop playing when we need to...or not too long after...:P
Arnelos posted 12-02-98 01:30 AM ET
I don't know, as long as I can burry the Americans thread
Antiam posted 12-02-98 02:37 AM ET
My guess is that it will be a limited number of turns, based on a game already in progress. That way Firaxis can showcase many different parts of the game. Also, I expect some features to be disabled, ie vehicle workshop.
Antiam
DJ RRebel posted 12-02-98 02:48 AM ET
Limiting the number of turns will make using a large map useless !!! That's the only thing they'll need to do !!!
Andrew Kasantsev posted 12-02-98 03:51 AM ET
And some hacker would turn off that 'turn limit' in no time. Demo had to be really CRIPPLED - so, I think, one faction, one map, short techtree.
DJ RRebel posted 12-02-98 03:55 AM ET
Good point .. I didn't think of that !!!
Anyone have any idea how large the demo will be ???
Gord McLeod posted 12-02-98 05:32 AM ET
I hate turn-limited demos... oh well. It does make sense, I have to give it that. But I'd rather see the techs and maybe factions limited, and definitely have only one map to limit replayability. Maybe one map for solo play and one for multiplayer...
Gord McLeod posted 12-02-98 05:35 AM ET
Oh, one more idea - limit you even in an unlimited-turn demo, to winning through conquest only. (Sort of like Blood Lust in Civ2.) That way they can keep the secret of transcendence until the full game is released...
MikeH II posted 12-02-98 05:47 AM ET
I think limited turns, limited tech tree, one faction (Spartans).
Peke posted 12-02-98 05:59 AM ET
I'd say one small map, one faction and limited techtree.
Mortis posted 12-02-98 07:06 AM ET
Yes, indeed it was discused before. I say, look at the STARS! demo 80 turns, small map, limited techs. Just enough to get you started. Imperilisation Demo was great too. And only 20mb.
tOFfGI posted 12-02-98 02:36 PM ET
I say one faction, small tech tree, small, random map and no customisation of any kind would be sufficient.
RM posted 12-02-98 03:44 PM ET
I'd say small tech tree, small map and no graphics, only text.
Imran Siddiqui posted 12-02-98 04:19 PM ET
I just think that one faction would suck!! Some of already have hatreds for a faction (me=Hive), and we also won't be able to be the faction we have been campaigning for. Give me Morgan, and the ability to be Santiago and Lal as well!!
Imran Siddiqui
Patriot
CClark posted 12-02-98 04:22 PM ET
If they do limited number of turns, by default it will keep the tech tree limited.
If it were up to me, I'd just do a turn limit, and a fixed map with only 2 or 3 terrains (okay, 4 if you count water). I'd also remove all special projects.
I wouldn't limit the faction you could play, I'd let people try all of them.
Talon posted 12-02-98 04:49 PM ET
I say limited turns and 4 factions(Hive,Spartans,Pk's,Morgan)
-Talon
TJ Hogan posted 12-02-98 05:38 PM ET
What ever they do I hope they keep the demo to a reasonable size. I don't want to try and download a 100mb + demo. About 20mb would be fine.
DHE_X2 posted 12-02-98 05:51 PM ET
I say small map, one for mplayer and one for single player, 3 factions (pk, morgan, spartan), NO turn limit, conquest only, small tech tree(5 advances, each area), all terrains, average Chironian wildlife, some events, and under 30mb
jfrazier posted 12-02-98 06:24 PM ET
The Demo will most likely consist of a limited time span. We will be able to do anything the normal game will include, accept there will be a time limit on the game. My sources indicate a 30 minute time limit. There are several demos that do this. Most recently noted, a SimCity 2000 demo.
Jeff
Ceasar of the Stars
The One And Only DarkStar posted 12-02-98 06:31 PM ET
Well I hope they wont cripple the demo too much, or after 2 days nobody will play it anymore...Who am I kidding everyone would play it even with a 1 turn limit...ok maybe not...but at least I hope they will make it entertaining enough to last until the real McCoy.
TOAODS
CClark posted 12-02-98 06:46 PM ET
Remeber, the purpose of the demo is to give people other than us a taste of the game to see if they want to buy it. The purpose of the demo isn't to give us something to tide us over until the final game ships. That's why I figure there will be a turn limit of 25 to 50 turns. Just enough to get you interested and show you a good portion of the game, but not so much that the whole game is spoiled. I doubt that you'll be able to play the whole thing to completion. I also doubt that you'll be able to play multiplayer, but I could be wrong on that one.
Brother Greg posted 12-02-98 06:53 PM ET
RM: for a second there I thought you were suggesting a text only game. lol...
Anyway, I tend to think they won't limit the Factions. They're trying to sell the game, and I don't think that limiting Factions would work too well. If one of the main points in the game is the different factions, it would be silly IMO to have only two or three. Imagine a Starcraft demo where you could only play the humans.
Size will probably be reasonable, though not too large. Thye'll have to put in help files (I think so anyway), but no movies Iw ouldn't think, unless it were a short trailer like the ones we can download now. So, maybe 30M or so. I don't mind, I'll even download it on my 28.8K modem.
Unless of course I have my brand spanking new Pentium II by then, with it's 56k modem. Speaking of which, must chase that up...
Brother Greg.
Brother Greg.
Brother Greg posted 12-02-98 06:54 PM ET
Damn, how'd that Brother Greg get in there twice? Grrr...
Brother Greg.
DarkLight posted 12-02-98 06:57 PM ET
My bet? I would have to say a limit on advances, a small map, only win through conquest, few diplomatic options, and absolutely NO idea of what happens when you win. Maybe, when you level everybody, they have a handy little black screen with a question mark and the message, "Want to see the REAL ending? Buy the whole game on XX/XX/XX!"
AUH20 posted 12-02-98 09:59 PM ET
Perhaps some short, scenarios. Like one for each faction.
"The Spartans have begun raids into our territory from a small island base. Several of our cities have fallen. Recapture the cities, and destroy the island base. You have x amount of turns to do so."
Dorg of CWAL posted 12-02-98 11:16 PM ET
Starcraft demo with only terrans? That's what it was
Brother Greg posted 12-02-98 11:29 PM ET
Um, er, damn. Bad example obviously. Teach me to quote demos I never actually played.
Brother Greg.
Imran Siddiqui posted 12-03-98 12:50 AM ET
Well, BG, remember Starcraft was more or less linear. You need all the factions to be available in the demo. They are what bring some character in the game. At first look the differences in factions is the main difference between this and other like games.
Imran Siddiqui
Patriot
"Sarcasm does not become you"
Gord McLeod posted 12-03-98 03:39 AM ET
Imran, the StarCraft demo only had one race,
the Terrans... they were all you could play,
in both single and multiplayer mode. In fact
you never even really saw the Protoss at all,
your opponents in the single player missions
were Zerg and Terran if I remember correctly.
Maybe not even Terran. =)
Steel_Dragon posted 12-03-98 03:52 AM ET
One Small Map maybe mostly oceon with three fractions at a time. This would kill repay value best still allow a little game.
Titan posted 12-03-98 05:08 PM ET
I think there will be only one or two playable faction, a small map and a limited number of turns. Since the number of turns would be limited, Firaxis wont have to limit the tech tree since we wont have time to discover all techs. Maybe there will be some otpions turned off. One thing I'm sure is that there will be enough feature in it to make us impatient to play the game.
PawtheUnstuk posted 12-04-98 10:29 PM ET
The basic criteria are:
Making the demo smaller.
Making sure people go buy the game.
Not making the game worse than it really will be after you buy it. (Except by destroying its replay value.)
Allowing people play it at least a couple of times before they have to go buy it, sicne your first game of a game like SMAC might be frustrating.
No map gnerator is definitily a good idea, in addition to anything else. It means you'll buy the game if you like it, but that you'll be able to play it several times before you have to. This is crucail, since the first time through a game like SMAC can be somewhat agitating.
No Multi-player, obviously. There is no reason for it in a Demo. You want to make people buy the game for something like this. This will make the game much smaller as well.
No Movies or Music (except perhaps for a MIDI), since the game needs to be downloadable.
Proabably limiting it to 3 or 4 and half or two-thirds tech is a reasonable idea. Otherwise, alot of people won't end up buying it who might otherwise.
Turn limiting is a horrible idea, it gets people mad quite quickly. Imagine, your in the middle of the game and it shuts down. Quite aggravating, unnesecary, and easily hacked out.
Limiting or Cutting various t hings to keep the size down mighit be a good idea.
The Demo should come with the story in a .txt file, since it is so excellent.

Download the worms 2 demo for an example of the idea Demo. It is fun to play and gives a good idea of the game, except you can only play it so many times before it gets old. Perfect.
By the way, how do you get the various smily characters?
Imran Siddiqui posted 12-05-98 12:55 AM ET
I know Gord, SC demo was only terrans, but that's ok for that game, it was a linear game. SMAC is an unlinear game (the anti-SC if you will)
Imran Siddiqui
SMAC enthusiasts
osric posted 12-05-98 02:43 AM ET
I respectfully disagree w/ a couple of your points unstuck:
1. the video will be will be splashy and attention grabbing. They've got to get us to save our holliday $$ for a couple of more weeks.
2. consequently not sure they'll keep it small enough to download in a reasonable amount of time. after too much wasted time Iigave up trying to find what they did to Sid's RR Tycoon while he's been away.
3. although it adds to the frustration level we probably can't play the demo to a satisfactory solution -- the point is to get us to buy the game. turn limiting would certainly do that.
think any of us wouldn't buy it, even if the demo was frustrating?
DHE_X2 posted 12-05-98 03:15 AM ET
depends if the cripples were frustrating or the actual gameplay.
osric posted 12-05-98 11:34 AM ET
I suspect we'd buy it even if the demo gameplay appeared to be bad.
A perfect demo would entice and excite, but leave you without any sense of closure; A sense of needing to buy the game. I doubt there is anyone here who doesn't have that already (without the demo).
Marian posted 12-05-98 12:07 PM ET
I think that is exactly right
All of us wll by the game, even if we don't get a demo at all.
Ciao
Marian
Editor of the Alpha Centauri Zone
http://www.juhu.de/hartel/alpha
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 12-05-98 02:12 PM ET
Boy, how'd I miss this. Anyway, I'll add my 10 cents.
1.) There will be a tech limit. Probably the 5 early techs that the pc.ign preview gave us.
2.) You won't get all the diplomacy options as in the real game, to keep it simpler.
3.) There won't be a turn limit, but possibly a city limit. That means you can only build something like 15-20 bases in the demo. You can probably conquer a few more.
4.) There will be 2 factions. The Spartans & the PK's. That way they can try out conquest, & diplomacy
5.) The map will be smaller, maybe just one big continent that two factions duke it out over.
That's about all I can think they would do to cripple the demo. My 10 cents again.
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
Octopus posted 12-05-98 02:55 PM ET
YYYH: Don't options 2 and 4 sort of conflict?
"All of us wll by the game, even if we don't get a demo at all."
We're not the ones that Firaxis needs to convince. We're all going to buy the game. The people that the demo is targetted at are the people who aren't addicted already.
Having a turn-limited demo would be really bad, in my opinion. Having a game just stop on you is infuriating. Firaxis should want people to come away from the demo saying "Wow! That was great! I want MORE MORE MORE!" not "Dammit, they won't even let me play the demo the way I want! How can the real game be any fun?!". Limiting techs makes sense, limiting factions makes sense, limiting the map makes sense. These are "features" that can be easily extracted from the game. Having a turn limit will be like having a brick wall that everyone is encouraged to run into at full speed.
osric posted 12-06-98 02:52 AM ET
Remember to that they are on (behind?) a schedule. The demo has to:
1. Be easy to develop (quickly).
2. Be very bug free.
3. Probabally based on the real thing.
4. Not easily hacked into the real thing.
Selectively eliminating some of the integral elements would be difficult. Simple limits might be easy to do (# pieces, turns, cities, etc.) But as Y3H suggested removing parts of the diplomacy could very difficult to do well, quickly.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 12-06-98 11:53 AM ET
Octopus: I guess you're right about options 2 & 4. Ok, so they would keep all the diplomacy options, because I assume the PK's will be in there. As osric pointed out, they would be too hard to take out, & they're very busy on the real game, so the diplomacy options stay now.
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
Steel_Dragon posted 12-06-98 12:48 PM ET
I like the idea of no map generator and one maybe two vey small maps, like islands five or six cities big, that allows you play one or two games but nothing more, before becoming boring. Conquest of a New Worlds demo was like that it also had a turn limmit which was not cool
dushan posted 12-06-98 01:50 PM ET
Hey, why cripple it?
Maybe the guys at Firaxis have read the communism vs capitalism threads, thought long and hard and finally realised how rotten capitalism really is.
They embraced the wonderful ideals of communism and decided to be really nice to everyone else and just give SMAC away for free.
Alternatively, just limit the game to one map. Not sure about limiting the number of turns - I remember playing the demo of Imperialism, and although I liked the first few turns, I never bought it as I just didn't know what would it be like later on. If you think of civilisation, the begining of the game is very different to the end.
On the other hand I agree that they probably want to give away as little as possible.
I quite liked the idea of having a number of scenarios, from where you could play for n turns to have a taste of different parts of the game.
Also, note that Worms demo was practically fully playable (there was a limit on 'maps' and weapons, but not on number of turns as far as I remember) and I don't think they had any problems selling the game...
Octopus posted 12-06-98 02:15 PM ET
The greatest feature of SMAC is going to be the addictive "just one more turn" quality. Why put an "artificial" limit in the demo that will destroy that?
AUH20 posted 12-06-98 07:50 PM ET
I dunno. Brian's a pretty smart guy, he's a history major, he's not going to turn communist and give away the fruits of his labor, I bet.
"From each his ability, to each his ability."
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Author	Topic: How Firaxis should cripple the demo
Brother Greg	posted 12-02-98 12:23 AM ET Can't remember if this has been discussed before, but how does everyone reckon that Firaxis should cripple the demo? Should it me a max no of turns? Should it limit you to playing on one map? Should it limit you to one faction only? Should it limit the tech advances? Should it not allow you to save/load games? Or multiples of the above? Or something else completely? Personally, I think it'll be a limit on the tech and the number of turns. And I think we can take it as a given that we won't get any movies for any secret projects or the like. Thoughts? Brother Greg.
Imran Siddiqui	posted 12-02-98 12:44 AM ET I think it should be a limit on turns and one map. You should see how far, technologically you can get, and you should be able to pick your faction to see how their benefits and detriments would work. Just my 2 cents (of course no one cares anyway, what I say). Imran Siddiqui Patriot
WAS	posted 12-02-98 01:04 AM ET Imran I disagree, we all care what you think. We are a bunch of sensitive, caring people. My opinion is limited number of turns and one map, just like Imran said. By the way, speaking of the demo, today is Dec 1. That means 14 days to go.
Octopus	posted 12-02-98 01:16 AM ET I think limiting the number of turns could be really annoying, especially if your grand strategy was going to pay off at turn n+1. My prediction is a small map, which is not randomized, with limited science, and limited factions. By keeping a cap on science and the number of factions they can theoretically save on some graphics, so the demo can be smaller. By playing on a single fixed map we'll get a good feel for the game, but it won't be very replayable, so we'll all have to go out an buy the real thing (well, I know all of US will do that, but Firaxis needs to convince everybody ELSE to do it ). In addition, if they fix the map, they can only use a subset of all possible terrains, again saving graphic space (although probably not much...). If they pick the factions that they give us carefully enough (like Believers and Spartans) the game would probably be won or lost by the time you hit the limit. By limiting science, you also limit things like which city improvements you can build, what weapons and stuff you can use when designing your units, etc. Or, maybe they'll just limit the number of turns .
Spoe	posted 12-02-98 01:23 AM ET Limit the number of turns. That's the answer to how to make ourselves stop playing when we need to...or not too long after...:P
Arnelos	posted 12-02-98 01:30 AM ET I don't know, as long as I can burry the Americans thread
Antiam	posted 12-02-98 02:37 AM ET My guess is that it will be a limited number of turns, based on a game already in progress. That way Firaxis can showcase many different parts of the game. Also, I expect some features to be disabled, ie vehicle workshop. Antiam
DJ RRebel	posted 12-02-98 02:48 AM ET Limiting the number of turns will make using a large map useless !!! That's the only thing they'll need to do !!!
Andrew Kasantsev	posted 12-02-98 03:51 AM ET And some hacker would turn off that 'turn limit' in no time. Demo had to be really CRIPPLED - so, I think, one faction, one map, short techtree.
DJ RRebel	posted 12-02-98 03:55 AM ET Good point .. I didn't think of that !!! Anyone have any idea how large the demo will be ???
Gord McLeod	posted 12-02-98 05:32 AM ET I hate turn-limited demos... oh well. It does make sense, I have to give it that. But I'd rather see the techs and maybe factions limited, and definitely have only one map to limit replayability. Maybe one map for solo play and one for multiplayer...
Gord McLeod	posted 12-02-98 05:35 AM ET Oh, one more idea - limit you even in an unlimited-turn demo, to winning through conquest only. (Sort of like Blood Lust in Civ2.) That way they can keep the secret of transcendence until the full game is released...
MikeH II	posted 12-02-98 05:47 AM ET I think limited turns, limited tech tree, one faction (Spartans).
Peke	posted 12-02-98 05:59 AM ET I'd say one small map, one faction and limited techtree.
Mortis	posted 12-02-98 07:06 AM ET Yes, indeed it was discused before. I say, look at the STARS! demo 80 turns, small map, limited techs. Just enough to get you started. Imperilisation Demo was great too. And only 20mb.
tOFfGI	posted 12-02-98 02:36 PM ET I say one faction, small tech tree, small, random map and no customisation of any kind would be sufficient.
RM	posted 12-02-98 03:44 PM ET I'd say small tech tree, small map and no graphics, only text.
Imran Siddiqui	posted 12-02-98 04:19 PM ET I just think that one faction would suck!! Some of already have hatreds for a faction (me=Hive), and we also won't be able to be the faction we have been campaigning for. Give me Morgan, and the ability to be Santiago and Lal as well!! Imran Siddiqui Patriot
CClark	posted 12-02-98 04:22 PM ET If they do limited number of turns, by default it will keep the tech tree limited. If it were up to me, I'd just do a turn limit, and a fixed map with only 2 or 3 terrains (okay, 4 if you count water). I'd also remove all special projects. I wouldn't limit the faction you could play, I'd let people try all of them.
Talon	posted 12-02-98 04:49 PM ET I say limited turns and 4 factions(Hive,Spartans,Pk's,Morgan) -Talon
TJ Hogan	posted 12-02-98 05:38 PM ET What ever they do I hope they keep the demo to a reasonable size. I don't want to try and download a 100mb + demo. About 20mb would be fine.
DHE_X2	posted 12-02-98 05:51 PM ET I say small map, one for mplayer and one for single player, 3 factions (pk, morgan, spartan), NO turn limit, conquest only, small tech tree(5 advances, each area), all terrains, average Chironian wildlife, some events, and under 30mb
jfrazier	posted 12-02-98 06:24 PM ET The Demo will most likely consist of a limited time span. We will be able to do anything the normal game will include, accept there will be a time limit on the game. My sources indicate a 30 minute time limit. There are several demos that do this. Most recently noted, a SimCity 2000 demo. Jeff Ceasar of the Stars
The One And Only DarkStar	posted 12-02-98 06:31 PM ET Well I hope they wont cripple the demo too much, or after 2 days nobody will play it anymore...Who am I kidding everyone would play it even with a 1 turn limit...ok maybe not...but at least I hope they will make it entertaining enough to last until the real McCoy. TOAODS
CClark	posted 12-02-98 06:46 PM ET Remeber, the purpose of the demo is to give people other than us a taste of the game to see if they want to buy it. The purpose of the demo isn't to give us something to tide us over until the final game ships. That's why I figure there will be a turn limit of 25 to 50 turns. Just enough to get you interested and show you a good portion of the game, but not so much that the whole game is spoiled. I doubt that you'll be able to play the whole thing to completion. I also doubt that you'll be able to play multiplayer, but I could be wrong on that one.
Brother Greg	posted 12-02-98 06:53 PM ET RM: for a second there I thought you were suggesting a text only game. lol... Anyway, I tend to think they won't limit the Factions. They're trying to sell the game, and I don't think that limiting Factions would work too well. If one of the main points in the game is the different factions, it would be silly IMO to have only two or three. Imagine a Starcraft demo where you could only play the humans. Size will probably be reasonable, though not too large. Thye'll have to put in help files (I think so anyway), but no movies Iw ouldn't think, unless it were a short trailer like the ones we can download now. So, maybe 30M or so. I don't mind, I'll even download it on my 28.8K modem. Unless of course I have my brand spanking new Pentium II by then, with it's 56k modem. Speaking of which, must chase that up... Brother Greg. Brother Greg.
Brother Greg	posted 12-02-98 06:54 PM ET Damn, how'd that Brother Greg get in there twice? Grrr... Brother Greg.
DarkLight	posted 12-02-98 06:57 PM ET My bet? I would have to say a limit on advances, a small map, only win through conquest, few diplomatic options, and absolutely NO idea of what happens when you win. Maybe, when you level everybody, they have a handy little black screen with a question mark and the message, "Want to see the REAL ending? Buy the whole game on XX/XX/XX!"
AUH20	posted 12-02-98 09:59 PM ET Perhaps some short, scenarios. Like one for each faction. "The Spartans have begun raids into our territory from a small island base. Several of our cities have fallen. Recapture the cities, and destroy the island base. You have x amount of turns to do so."
Dorg of CWAL	posted 12-02-98 11:16 PM ET Starcraft demo with only terrans? That's what it was
Brother Greg	posted 12-02-98 11:29 PM ET Um, er, damn. Bad example obviously. Teach me to quote demos I never actually played. Brother Greg.
Imran Siddiqui	posted 12-03-98 12:50 AM ET Well, BG, remember Starcraft was more or less linear. You need all the factions to be available in the demo. They are what bring some character in the game. At first look the differences in factions is the main difference between this and other like games. Imran Siddiqui Patriot "Sarcasm does not become you"
Gord McLeod	posted 12-03-98 03:39 AM ET Imran, the StarCraft demo only had one race, the Terrans... they were all you could play, in both single and multiplayer mode. In fact you never even really saw the Protoss at all, your opponents in the single player missions were Zerg and Terran if I remember correctly. Maybe not even Terran. =)
Steel_Dragon	posted 12-03-98 03:52 AM ET One Small Map maybe mostly oceon with three fractions at a time. This would kill repay value best still allow a little game.
Titan	posted 12-03-98 05:08 PM ET I think there will be only one or two playable faction, a small map and a limited number of turns. Since the number of turns would be limited, Firaxis wont have to limit the tech tree since we wont have time to discover all techs. Maybe there will be some otpions turned off. One thing I'm sure is that there will be enough feature in it to make us impatient to play the game.
PawtheUnstuk	posted 12-04-98 10:29 PM ET The basic criteria are: Making the demo smaller. Making sure people go buy the game. Not making the game worse than it really will be after you buy it. (Except by destroying its replay value.) Allowing people play it at least a couple of times before they have to go buy it, sicne your first game of a game like SMAC might be frustrating. No map gnerator is definitily a good idea, in addition to anything else. It means you'll buy the game if you like it, but that you'll be able to play it several times before you have to. This is crucail, since the first time through a game like SMAC can be somewhat agitating. No Multi-player, obviously. There is no reason for it in a Demo. You want to make people buy the game for something like this. This will make the game much smaller as well. No Movies or Music (except perhaps for a MIDI), since the game needs to be downloadable. Proabably limiting it to 3 or 4 and half or two-thirds tech is a reasonable idea. Otherwise, alot of people won't end up buying it who might otherwise. Turn limiting is a horrible idea, it gets people mad quite quickly. Imagine, your in the middle of the game and it shuts down. Quite aggravating, unnesecary, and easily hacked out. Limiting or Cutting various t hings to keep the size down mighit be a good idea. The Demo should come with the story in a .txt file, since it is so excellent. Download the worms 2 demo for an example of the idea Demo. It is fun to play and gives a good idea of the game, except you can only play it so many times before it gets old. Perfect. By the way, how do you get the various smily characters?
Imran Siddiqui	posted 12-05-98 12:55 AM ET I know Gord, SC demo was only terrans, but that's ok for that game, it was a linear game. SMAC is an unlinear game (the anti-SC if you will) Imran Siddiqui SMAC enthusiasts
osric	posted 12-05-98 02:43 AM ET I respectfully disagree w/ a couple of your points unstuck: 1. the video will be will be splashy and attention grabbing. They've got to get us to save our holliday $$ for a couple of more weeks. 2. consequently not sure they'll keep it small enough to download in a reasonable amount of time. after too much wasted time Iigave up trying to find what they did to Sid's RR Tycoon while he's been away. 3. although it adds to the frustration level we probably can't play the demo to a satisfactory solution -- the point is to get us to buy the game. turn limiting would certainly do that. think any of us wouldn't buy it, even if the demo was frustrating?
DHE_X2	posted 12-05-98 03:15 AM ET depends if the cripples were frustrating or the actual gameplay.
osric	posted 12-05-98 11:34 AM ET I suspect we'd buy it even if the demo gameplay appeared to be bad. A perfect demo would entice and excite, but leave you without any sense of closure; A sense of needing to buy the game. I doubt there is anyone here who doesn't have that already (without the demo).
Marian	posted 12-05-98 12:07 PM ET I think that is exactly right All of us wll by the game, even if we don't get a demo at all. Ciao Marian Editor of the Alpha Centauri Zone http://www.juhu.de/hartel/alpha
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey	posted 12-05-98 02:12 PM ET Boy, how'd I miss this. Anyway, I'll add my 10 cents. 1.) There will be a tech limit. Probably the 5 early techs that the pc.ign preview gave us. 2.) You won't get all the diplomacy options as in the real game, to keep it simpler. 3.) There won't be a turn limit, but possibly a city limit. That means you can only build something like 15-20 bases in the demo. You can probably conquer a few more. 4.) There will be 2 factions. The Spartans & the PK's. That way they can try out conquest, & diplomacy 5.) The map will be smaller, maybe just one big continent that two factions duke it out over. That's about all I can think they would do to cripple the demo. My 10 cents again. Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general, YYYH
Octopus	posted 12-05-98 02:55 PM ET YYYH: Don't options 2 and 4 sort of conflict? "All of us wll by the game, even if we don't get a demo at all." We're not the ones that Firaxis needs to convince. We're all going to buy the game. The people that the demo is targetted at are the people who aren't addicted already. Having a turn-limited demo would be really bad, in my opinion. Having a game just stop on you is infuriating. Firaxis should want people to come away from the demo saying "Wow! That was great! I want MORE MORE MORE!" not "Dammit, they won't even let me play the demo the way I want! How can the real game be any fun?!". Limiting techs makes sense, limiting factions makes sense, limiting the map makes sense. These are "features" that can be easily extracted from the game. Having a turn limit will be like having a brick wall that everyone is encouraged to run into at full speed.
osric	posted 12-06-98 02:52 AM ET Remember to that they are on (behind?) a schedule. The demo has to: 1. Be easy to develop (quickly). 2. Be very bug free. 3. Probabally based on the real thing. 4. Not easily hacked into the real thing. Selectively eliminating some of the integral elements would be difficult. Simple limits might be easy to do (# pieces, turns, cities, etc.) But as Y3H suggested removing parts of the diplomacy could very difficult to do well, quickly.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey	posted 12-06-98 11:53 AM ET Octopus: I guess you're right about options 2 & 4. Ok, so they would keep all the diplomacy options, because I assume the PK's will be in there. As osric pointed out, they would be too hard to take out, & they're very busy on the real game, so the diplomacy options stay now. Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general, YYYH
Steel_Dragon	posted 12-06-98 12:48 PM ET I like the idea of no map generator and one maybe two vey small maps, like islands five or six cities big, that allows you play one or two games but nothing more, before becoming boring. Conquest of a New Worlds demo was like that it also had a turn limmit which was not cool
dushan	posted 12-06-98 01:50 PM ET Hey, why cripple it? Maybe the guys at Firaxis have read the communism vs capitalism threads, thought long and hard and finally realised how rotten capitalism really is. They embraced the wonderful ideals of communism and decided to be really nice to everyone else and just give SMAC away for free. Alternatively, just limit the game to one map. Not sure about limiting the number of turns - I remember playing the demo of Imperialism, and although I liked the first few turns, I never bought it as I just didn't know what would it be like later on. If you think of civilisation, the begining of the game is very different to the end. On the other hand I agree that they probably want to give away as little as possible. I quite liked the idea of having a number of scenarios, from where you could play for n turns to have a taste of different parts of the game. Also, note that Worms demo was practically fully playable (there was a limit on 'maps' and weapons, but not on number of turns as far as I remember) and I don't think they had any problems selling the game...
Octopus	posted 12-06-98 02:15 PM ET The greatest feature of SMAC is going to be the addictive "just one more turn" quality. Why put an "artificial" limit in the demo that will destroy that?
AUH20	posted 12-06-98 07:50 PM ET I dunno. Brian's a pretty smart guy, he's a history major, he's not going to turn communist and give away the fruits of his labor, I bet. "From each his ability, to each his ability."