posted 12-01-98 07:17 PM ET        

Judging by this forum, most nonhivers fear and hate the Hive. Why? I contend that it is not purely because of intellectual reasons, but partly because of emotional reasons. The Hive uncomfortably reminds them of communism and triggers memories of early childhood propaganda against the "red menace." Furthermore, the recent collapse of the USSR has been seen as a failure of communism; thus, the "communist" Hive must be a failure. Any view of the Hive as other than a failure is counter to their belief. A successful Hive would mean that the anti-hiver's judgment is wrong. Therefore, the anti-Hiver feels that his personal ability to reason is at stake. He cannot be wrong, he says to himself and takes any disagreement as a personal insult. In an effort to cover this insecurity, the attacks against the Hive become ever more intense. This association with childhood propaganda and personal insecurity is hilarious in light of the fact that the Hive might not really be communist after all!

To support my previous point of Red Menace propaganda connotations having a subliminal affect on anti-Hivers, allow me to introduce another example. Take the exact same Hive, and describe it as following a mixture of the philosophies of Buddhism/zenism(sp?), martial arts, and Confucianism. E.G. the denial of emotions, physical and emotional pain, cold unemotional analytical thought, absolute discipline over self, conformity, society over individual, duty to country and courtesy, etc. Once you do this, the people who would become antihivers...are not. When they look at the two labels for the Hive, they would detest the one, and embrace the other. Despite the fact that the substance of the Hive has not changed! This proves the previous paragraph's arguments about connotations being the source of antihive hysteria. Connotations driven by ignorance and propaganda.

The emphasis of society over individual is seen as limiting and despotic under the Red Menace label. But under the second label, it is seen as self-sacrificing, admirable, noble. The denial of emotion and pain is seen as inhuman under the Red Menace label, but seen as admirable discipline and strength under the second label(kind of like the way we admire martial arts experts able to stoically withstand pain).

posted 12-01-98 07:33 PM ET            

And i agree, at no time did i think of the Hive as a Commie Faction. it seems to be a attempt to create Confucianist attitude in the colonists. And as these people come from a planet that has all but been destoryed by the horrors of unrestricted war and industry maybe to them the peace and harmony of a Confucianism style culture is what they look for.

Remember Communism failed because the people who became Communist never wanted to be it in the first place, or had no idea what they where geting into. Communism could theoriticly work, if the people in it where deticated to it, the hard part is giving that detecation to the next generations.

Personly i do not see any faction as being overly hated. I have problems with each .

posted 12-01-98 07:45 PM ET            

I think that maybe that is part of what makes people hate them so much. A police state sorta implies subjugating the populace, and that then implies all of the bad parts of Communism. So, maybe they have SOME reason to hate the hive so much.

How do you pro-hivers explain away the Police State under zen/buddhism?

posted 12-01-98 10:25 PM ET            

The reason that the Hive is an efficient society is because EVERYONE in it subscribes to the philosophy Rang describes. Living by that philosophy would make one person effective, but having complete confidence that everyone around you also lived up to that philosphy allows for an order of magnitude improvement in personal productivity. You never have to second-guess anyone, you never have to doubt the good intentions of others, you never have to figure out how the other guy is trying to screw you over or stab you in the back. Once these inefficiencies are removed from daily life, each Hiver is able to excel at whatever he or she does best, and to cooperate effictively with the other Hivers around them.

As to individualism, there would be ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in the Hive not understanding that each individual has different talents and abilities. In hives in the Insect world, specialization is quite common. The Human Hive will understand that by allowing people to do what they do best, without mundane distractions or pointless wastes of effort, they will be both happier and more productive. This is a net win for the Hive. Having everyone be completely identical would be a loss.

As for the security conscious nature of the Hive, this is an outgrowth of the desire for efficiency (efficiency leads to high productivity, which leads to benefits for every member of the Hive). Everyone will be happier and more productive if they have complete confidence in their safety and security. There is no "loss" of liberty in this society, since the philosphy of the entire society is more or less aligned with the philosphy of each individual member. Things like the right to protest are only useful to dissenting troublemakers, and those who are in the Hive would not have joined if it wasn't what they wanted. And removal of any troublemakers who do come and try to disrupt society will be beneficial to everyone (i.e. they won't be making trouble anymore).

As to the so-called "mind control", I can only imagine that the Hive is extending every available opportunity to every member. The Hivers value discipline, etc., but some people are just not strong enough to live up to the high standards that they would like to. Just as someone who is physically weak or disabled might seek some form of assistance, these people take advantage of the extensive knowledge of the mind and brain that are available to them, in order to better themselves.

posted 12-01-98 10:51 PM ET            

Er, a Hive quote, for all you Hivers out there...
"I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do" --HAL 9000, 2001: A Space Odyssey

Seely
Element 394303

posted 12-01-98 11:06 PM ET            

"As to individualism, there would be ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in the Hive not understanding that each individual has different talents and abilities. In hives in the Insect world, specialization is quite common."

Yes, but insects are born to serve a certain purpose. The best way for people to find their purpose is to choose it, the perosn knows best. But then everyone will choose the easy jobs, or the "fun" jobs. None of the dirty and thankless work will get done. So the government has to assign jobs, and the government will not assign people to their pegs as efficiently as the free market.

Let's not even get into Octopus's ridiculous assertion that people willl volunteer for the sessions so they can learn to be less lazy. What inspiration is there without personal gain and profit? I think the biggest use of this will be on the "undesireables," cahritably refered to as tumors within the Hive. As for the dissidents, I agree that brainwashing them is good for the Hive, upon first glance at least. But is it good for the dissident? Of course not. And that undesireable might have a thing or two to teach the rest of the Hive, that they never will because they've been mindwiped.

If only my old thread on "Join the Human Hive! Work 12 hours a day!" was still around...

posted 12-01-98 11:25 PM ET            

Personally, I'd prefer if I had the willpower/motivation to exercise more than I do. I don't know if I'd submit to any sort of medical enhancements to correct that condition, but I believe that some people would. A lot of people believe in self improvement. Even learning simple psychological tricks can help you change behavior you wish you didn't exhibit. There will be a full spectrum of psychiatric care in the Hive. People who are truly disturbed (i.e. mentally ill) and people who just need advice and proven techniques can all benefit from advancements in psychology and psychiatry. To limit psychologists to just helping the truly insane is to throw away a valuable resource.

"What inspiration is there without personal gain and profit?"

The members of the Hive value service to society, and also understand that it is each members obligation to contribute in the best way that they can. You may be solely driven by greed, but don't insult every other human by implying that they are as well.

"But then everyone will choose the easy jobs, or the "fun" jobs."

posted 12-01-98 11:30 PM ET            

As has already been pointed out, Firaxis have described the Hive as a "brutal police state" or words to that effect. And on top of that they have stated that Yang uses mind control on them.

That I think is what would annoy most people, not losing personal freedom, but being forced to follow the equivalent of a communist dictator.

Methinks that for the faction that you want, you would have to create a custom faction, because the visoin that ye have just don't seem to match Firaxis' implementation.

posted 12-01-98 11:54 PM ET            

We know from Yang's faction quote that he wants you to "Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity." I take this to mean that each person has to understand that he is a part of a society, and that functioning WITH that society, in a unified manner, is what Yang stands for.

We also know from the previews that the Hive is an "efficient machine", which fits in with my conception of them. Effiency comes from lots of specialized people working together.

We know that they've been described as "an atheist police state". The atheist part is perfectly understandable (no silly distractions ) and the "police state" part I explaind in an earlier post. Basically, high security is valued, and the "loss" of individual liberties is not missed.

We know that they use "mind control", and I've been playing that off as psychiatric help, which it will be for some, but dissenters probably will be "corrected". It's for their own good .

AUH2O keeps dragging out "culture of serfdom" every few seconds when he talks about the Hive, but I think that is outdated info, and Firaxis has realized that they made a mistake, which is why none of the newer previews mention it (I've never actually seen this quote, by the way, outside of AUH2O's posts, so I consider it hearsay, and inadmissable as evidence ).

posted 12-02-98 12:30 AM ET            

But you shouldn't be talking about the great mass of humanity. Remember, each faction gets to do some cream-skimming. The Hive is the most community minded 14.3% of humanity. The fanatical government of the Beleivers' faction could never survive if it was a cross-section of humanity, but it isn't. The Believers are the most religious 14.3% of humanity. And so on.

"I also agree that Firaxis apperantly wants the Hive to be the bad guys"

Personally, I think Firaxis is setting up the Hive as the faction you hate to love ("damn, I'm supposed to be opposed to everything they stand for, but they're such and effective faction...") rather than the faction you love to hate (this is the "die, Hive, die!" attitude of Imran).

posted 12-02-98 05:59 AM ET            

The Peacekeepers are like the borg. We need to resurrect the initial mission charter. We need to pacify the traitor factions. We will bring our ideals to you, and if you have been so brainwashed not to realise that we are right, we will force it on you for your own best.

posted 12-02-98 06:04 PM ET            

I agree with Snowfire's assertion that humanity, left to itself, might well follow this pattern. But this obstacle is overcomed by two factors.

1) Octopus's point that the Hive, just like any other faction, is NOT a representational cross-section of humanity. Thus, this obstacle might not be a real problem. (Notice the eagerness of Yang's cadets in the story. The Hive's members are not randomly selected.)

2) "Mindcontrol" technology. This is only a refinement of what already exists. People are "mindcontrolled" through education and upbringing. Look at people in different societies on Earth and examine the differences in their philosophies and thought patterns. You will see that the differences are rooted in societal/government influences during their formative years, and constantly reinforced in later years. (e.g. America: it's okay to lie or do terrible things if you can find a loophole in the law..."legally accurate")(e.g. Iran: It's unnatural for females to show their faces in public...Koran teachings in school, conservative indoctrinations, etc)

Many seem to think that associating with a "brutally police state" is bad. I contend that "brutal" means efficient, which is a good thing. (Often efficient and demanding bosses are called brutal by employees.) As for "police state," if I were to offer you the choice of either playing a democracy that's prone to riots every few turns, or a police state that has no riots...which would you choose?