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Shining1 posted 11-30-98 10:50 PM ET
Episode 28 contains an interesting wee note, something along the lines of 'Sheng-ji answered lightly, and then picked up a towel and began padding his neck and arms. "Session over".'
This implies he worked up quite a sweat during the fight. Nothing wrong with that, except the most advanced martial arts, such as Tai'Chi (of which I would expect Yang, of chinese origin, to be familiar with) involve very little heavy movement and almost never leave you breathless or sweaty. (The trick is to apply force where you opponent is not resisting, i.e at right angles to their strong points. It's not easy, but it's impossible to counter it if you don't know how.)
Hence it could be argued that Yang's combat skills, while impressive, are at least a level below where they should be. Which is odd, for someone of his supposed dicipline.
[I guess he could have had an energetic warm up, but again this is a rarity for Tai'Chi types.]
DJ RRebel posted 12-01-98 05:08 AM ET
well, it did say that he practiced for 10000 hours ... LOL .. I don't know about you, but 10000 hours of anything would make me sweat !!!
Izer posted 12-01-98 10:10 AM ET
It depends _which_ style of martial arts he was demonstrating. It was in the faction-bio that he practiced several.
I train Ju-Jutsu which is mixed style, equal
parts aikido, shokotan and judo. And while aikido does not work up much of a sweat.
Both shokotan (karate) and judo _will_ leave
you heaving for breath within 5 minutes if your are going all out.
Actual combat would, martial arts films aside never last more than a fraction of that.
You do _not_ jump right back up after somebody lands a circle kick on you, you are
on your way to the hospital with several broken bones.
MikeH II posted 12-01-98 05:12 PM ET
Unfortunately realism often doesn't make for a good movie.
Shining1 posted 12-03-98 10:25 PM ET
Izer:
(My training is in Kung-Fu, with a view towards Tai'Chi rather than Shaolin).
I agree, going hard out in any style of combat will leave you breathless - personally, lack of fitness is my biggest flaw. But our Tai'Chi preparation is the most gentle, sensitive form of training imaginable - well, at least 90% of the time .
I'm not sure of your ethnicity, Izer (Ju-jitsu being a popular Japanese art), but with Yang being Chinese I had assumed from the beginning that he would be expert the Chinese arts, Tai'Chi or its future derivatives being the best of these. (It certainly blows away all the hard forms of combat, and I'm 100% serious about this. The only reason it hasn't been seriously adopted by the martial arts community is that it takes too long to learn - and you don't the contact or conditioning gained by other styles.)
The other factor is that Tai'Chi practioners DO tend to get the kind of respect that Yang receives from the crew - once you see them in action.
Brother Greg posted 12-03-98 10:34 PM ET
BTW, I'd like to state up front that I know very little about Martial Arts, but isn't Tai-chi more a relaxation technique than a martial art?
Yeah, I know it uses a lot of moves similar to MA, but it is all at, like, 1/20th the speed. I never knew it was actually a Martial Art per se...
Brother Greg.
Shining1 posted 12-03-98 11:13 PM ET
Brother Greg:
Yeah, 99% of Tai'Chi practioners use it purely as a form of relaxation. Which it is good for, although I much prefer yoga, in which you get to sit down occasionally.
Tai'Chi's slow movements come from the need to be extremely sensitive to your opponent's movement, and them to yours. Hence a philosophy of "smaller, slower, softer" is applied to movements - you don't want to give away your 'plan' to your opponent.
When applied to the so-called 'hard' martial arts, Tai'Chi wins because the practioner is so well atuned to detecting small movements in their opponent that any large movement, say a punch or kick, is easily read and avoided or countered.
Additionally, the slow movement comes about because the precise control needed to perform the movements properly limits the human brain's ability to do them at speed. Tai'Chi places special emphasis on the centre of gravity, and always keeping it under full control, allowing you to focus your strength way more effectively (and defend yourself, as this is what your opponent will target).
Naturally this takes an eternity to learn, approximately 15 years in a capable student under a good teacher. I certainly don't claim to have any of the above abilities. But, ultimately, it's a superior style because of these great demands on accuracy, balance, and sensitivity.
Mortis posted 12-04-98 02:09 AM ET
I thought Tai'Chi was a form of breathing used to make you live longer. Preserving the "life force" or Chi.
Shining1 posted 12-06-98 10:46 PM ET
As I understand it, the Chi is, roughly speaking your 'centre of being' (life-force is perhaps just a little too general a translation). That is, the centre of gravity, which is nicely located around the torso region (a bit lower for females), allowing all sorts of funky metaphysicial interpretations to be added. Basicially, it's the source of your strength, which involves both aspects of balance and blood flow.
So I guess that could be correct, in the sense that Tai'Chi may help to _promote_ good breathing, but the movements are equally as important, especially for the martial arts bit.
That's more or less what I know. If a chinese speaking person is around these forums, they might be able to give you a better answer.
DHE_X2 posted 12-06-98 10:57 PM ET
No offense to any martial artist, but a fat guy with a magnum and fairly good aim could probably whip a kung-fu master any day.
Shining1 posted 12-06-98 11:09 PM ET
Yes. Your point??
SnowFire posted 12-06-98 11:10 PM ET
But fat guys with magnums don't get hired by rich companies to make martial-arts movies. Watch a few of them and you can see how a few martial arts masters can take out armies of dumb gun wielding thugs.
P.S. If someone was out to kill you, yeah, martial arts won't help much. But if someone was out to rob you, they could. Most robbers don't shoot their victims on sight, which is how you would dispatch a person trained in martial arts. Instead they try and shake you down, and that's when you disarm them and break their legs. Not that I could do that, haing no physical skill at all, but my cousin could, someday (he takes Tae Kwon Do), hopefully.
Shining1 posted 12-06-98 11:20 PM ET
Snowfire: Disarming a gunman is not recommended, unless its a very stupid robber. The chances of something going wrong a quite high, and obviously the results can be very serious.
Knife attacks and any kind of grappling or unwanted holds (esp. choke holds - these are laughably easy to counter) can be dealt with, however. But the main thing is just the ability to be around 6'5'', 250lb males (note I do not use the word Men) without feeling anykind of physical intimidation.
Mortis posted 12-07-98 05:37 AM ET
The best thing is to do what I do. Just don't go outdoors, then no one will be putting a gun to your head.
Unless they break into your home. Which isn't likely.
Then again, my neighberhood had the 5th largest amount of breakings in the contry.
Mmmmm, I think I'll buy a gun.
DHE_X2 posted 12-07-98 08:08 PM ET
Where do you live, the Bronx? wait that'd be the first highest, my bad.
Shining1 posted 12-07-98 10:39 PM ET
Mortis: It's recommended that you don't keep firearms at home - statistically the chance of it being used against you is higher than the change of it being an effective deterent.
I hope you weren't being serious, is all...
DHE: I thought New York was getting better recently (Bronx=N.Y??). My pick would have been Chicargo or L.A or somewhere.
P.S: Criminologists blame the reduced crime in N.Y on the smaller number of young males around at the moment. They expect a kind of mini-crime explosion within the next four to seven years.
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Author	Topic: Yang's combat
Shining1	posted 11-30-98 10:50 PM ET Episode 28 contains an interesting wee note, something along the lines of 'Sheng-ji answered lightly, and then picked up a towel and began padding his neck and arms. "Session over".' This implies he worked up quite a sweat during the fight. Nothing wrong with that, except the most advanced martial arts, such as Tai'Chi (of which I would expect Yang, of chinese origin, to be familiar with) involve very little heavy movement and almost never leave you breathless or sweaty. (The trick is to apply force where you opponent is not resisting, i.e at right angles to their strong points. It's not easy, but it's impossible to counter it if you don't know how.) Hence it could be argued that Yang's combat skills, while impressive, are at least a level below where they should be. Which is odd, for someone of his supposed dicipline. [I guess he could have had an energetic warm up, but again this is a rarity for Tai'Chi types.]
DJ RRebel	posted 12-01-98 05:08 AM ET well, it did say that he practiced for 10000 hours ... LOL .. I don't know about you, but 10000 hours of anything would make me sweat !!!
Izer	posted 12-01-98 10:10 AM ET It depends _which_ style of martial arts he was demonstrating. It was in the faction-bio that he practiced several. I train Ju-Jutsu which is mixed style, equal parts aikido, shokotan and judo. And while aikido does not work up much of a sweat. Both shokotan (karate) and judo _will_ leave you heaving for breath within 5 minutes if your are going all out. Actual combat would, martial arts films aside never last more than a fraction of that. You do _not_ jump right back up after somebody lands a circle kick on you, you are on your way to the hospital with several broken bones.
MikeH II	posted 12-01-98 05:12 PM ET Unfortunately realism often doesn't make for a good movie.
Shining1	posted 12-03-98 10:25 PM ET Izer: (My training is in Kung-Fu, with a view towards Tai'Chi rather than Shaolin). I agree, going hard out in any style of combat will leave you breathless - personally, lack of fitness is my biggest flaw. But our Tai'Chi preparation is the most gentle, sensitive form of training imaginable - well, at least 90% of the time . I'm not sure of your ethnicity, Izer (Ju-jitsu being a popular Japanese art), but with Yang being Chinese I had assumed from the beginning that he would be expert the Chinese arts, Tai'Chi or its future derivatives being the best of these. (It certainly blows away all the hard forms of combat, and I'm 100% serious about this. The only reason it hasn't been seriously adopted by the martial arts community is that it takes too long to learn - and you don't the contact or conditioning gained by other styles.) The other factor is that Tai'Chi practioners DO tend to get the kind of respect that Yang receives from the crew - once you see them in action.
Brother Greg	posted 12-03-98 10:34 PM ET BTW, I'd like to state up front that I know very little about Martial Arts, but isn't Tai-chi more a relaxation technique than a martial art? Yeah, I know it uses a lot of moves similar to MA, but it is all at, like, 1/20th the speed. I never knew it was actually a Martial Art per se... Brother Greg.
Shining1	posted 12-03-98 11:13 PM ET Brother Greg: Yeah, 99% of Tai'Chi practioners use it purely as a form of relaxation. Which it is good for, although I much prefer yoga, in which you get to sit down occasionally. Tai'Chi's slow movements come from the need to be extremely sensitive to your opponent's movement, and them to yours. Hence a philosophy of "smaller, slower, softer" is applied to movements - you don't want to give away your 'plan' to your opponent. When applied to the so-called 'hard' martial arts, Tai'Chi wins because the practioner is so well atuned to detecting small movements in their opponent that any large movement, say a punch or kick, is easily read and avoided or countered. Additionally, the slow movement comes about because the precise control needed to perform the movements properly limits the human brain's ability to do them at speed. Tai'Chi places special emphasis on the centre of gravity, and always keeping it under full control, allowing you to focus your strength way more effectively (and defend yourself, as this is what your opponent will target). Naturally this takes an eternity to learn, approximately 15 years in a capable student under a good teacher. I certainly don't claim to have any of the above abilities. But, ultimately, it's a superior style because of these great demands on accuracy, balance, and sensitivity.
Mortis	posted 12-04-98 02:09 AM ET I thought Tai'Chi was a form of breathing used to make you live longer. Preserving the "life force" or Chi.
Shining1	posted 12-06-98 10:46 PM ET As I understand it, the Chi is, roughly speaking your 'centre of being' (life-force is perhaps just a little too general a translation). That is, the centre of gravity, which is nicely located around the torso region (a bit lower for females), allowing all sorts of funky metaphysicial interpretations to be added. Basicially, it's the source of your strength, which involves both aspects of balance and blood flow. So I guess that could be correct, in the sense that Tai'Chi may help to _promote_ good breathing, but the movements are equally as important, especially for the martial arts bit. That's more or less what I know. If a chinese speaking person is around these forums, they might be able to give you a better answer.
DHE_X2	posted 12-06-98 10:57 PM ET No offense to any martial artist, but a fat guy with a magnum and fairly good aim could probably whip a kung-fu master any day.
Shining1	posted 12-06-98 11:09 PM ET Yes. Your point??
SnowFire	posted 12-06-98 11:10 PM ET But fat guys with magnums don't get hired by rich companies to make martial-arts movies. Watch a few of them and you can see how a few martial arts masters can take out armies of dumb gun wielding thugs. P.S. If someone was out to kill you, yeah, martial arts won't help much. But if someone was out to rob you, they could. Most robbers don't shoot their victims on sight, which is how you would dispatch a person trained in martial arts. Instead they try and shake you down, and that's when you disarm them and break their legs. Not that I could do that, haing no physical skill at all, but my cousin could, someday (he takes Tae Kwon Do), hopefully.
Shining1	posted 12-06-98 11:20 PM ET Snowfire: Disarming a gunman is not recommended, unless its a very stupid robber. The chances of something going wrong a quite high, and obviously the results can be very serious. Knife attacks and any kind of grappling or unwanted holds (esp. choke holds - these are laughably easy to counter) can be dealt with, however. But the main thing is just the ability to be around 6'5'', 250lb males (note I do not use the word Men) without feeling anykind of physical intimidation.
Mortis	posted 12-07-98 05:37 AM ET The best thing is to do what I do. Just don't go outdoors, then no one will be putting a gun to your head. Unless they break into your home. Which isn't likely. Then again, my neighberhood had the 5th largest amount of breakings in the contry. Mmmmm, I think I'll buy a gun.
DHE_X2	posted 12-07-98 08:08 PM ET Where do you live, the Bronx? wait that'd be the first highest, my bad.
Shining1	posted 12-07-98 10:39 PM ET Mortis: It's recommended that you don't keep firearms at home - statistically the chance of it being used against you is higher than the change of it being an effective deterent. I hope you weren't being serious, is all... DHE: I thought New York was getting better recently (Bronx=N.Y??). My pick would have been Chicargo or L.A or somewhere. P.S: Criminologists blame the reduced crime in N.Y on the smaller number of young males around at the moment. They expect a kind of mini-crime explosion within the next four to seven years.