posted 11-28-98 09:44 PM ET            

Me & Imran also have a planned Morgan-Spartan alliance. Good old military-industrial complex.

Au, Imran probably hasn't responded because he's at home for Thanksgiving break, I think. He might be back on Monday.

posted 11-29-98 12:58 AM ET            

When you getting back to school Imran, Sunday or Monday??

posted 11-29-98 07:28 PM ET            

UofP (common interest in maintaining peaceful external relations so we can focus on internal development and UofP can focus on research. Then later, with PK development and UofP research, combination would be quite powerful. The trick with both factions, as was the case in all other type games, to be at peace long enough to obtain a development/research edge over the other players. Thus, I feel the UofP and Peacekeepers make IDEAL allies, as they have similar interests in similar parts of the game.)

Gaians (would be great for the same reason as UofP. In addition, the Peacekeepers are probably the only faction the Gaians can get along with :-) ).

Other factions are possible, but I really don't see alliances with either the Hive or the Spartans being too probable.

When I start playing this multi-player (as the peacekeepers of course), I think I should imediately go for alliances with the UofP and/or Gaians. The three "development/research" factions should band together for mutual protection and to corner most of the good tech/societal advance/natural tech :-).

posted 11-29-98 07:31 PM ET            

DJRR the 7 facs means that probably there won't be any pre-set alliances initially, to heighten the possibility of treachery. While we would probably try to set up allicances similiar to these pre-sets, if the game turns weird, we may see a Spartan-Hive alliance or something odd like that (neccisity is the mother of bizarreness). And admit it YYYH, if you needed to in order to survive, you would ally with them. Even if you intended to turn on them later.

posted 11-29-98 07:54 PM ET            

BWHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! Aren't I funny?

No.

Damn.

Uh-oh. I'm having a converstation with myself.

Did you forget to take your medicine again, moron?

posted 11-29-98 07:56 PM ET            

A 6 way alliance to destroy the Hive will be acceptable. As long as the Spartans get to keep all the cities No, The Human Hive will be destroyed by me to early in the game to attempt an alliance

posted 11-29-98 08:21 PM ET            

The Morganites loathe the Hive for how it destroys human individuality, which the Morganites hold so dear.

The Gaians hate the Hive for how it would destroy the diversity of human life and human dignity.

The UofP hate the Hive for how it subjugates the individual intelect and keeps it away from the free pursuit of knowledge. The Hive destroys human individuality and human freedom, which the UofP holds dear.

The Believers hate the Hive for destroying religion and any semblance of human dignity or morality.

The Peacekeepers dislike the Hive for foolishly attempting to destroy all the parts of humanity which the peacekeeepers celibrate: our individuality, our dignity, our rights, and individual searches for knowledge and truth. The Hive imposes its view on all and stampts out all traces of the individual and his dignity.

So, all 6 factions have good reasons to want to get rid of the Hive (which would collapse on itself in reality since the whole idea upon which it is built is not compatable with human nature). We all view the Hive as our mutual enemy and no faction sees the Hive as its friend. So we do have a sense of unity, yes. Our unity comes through our respect for human freedom, dignity, and individuality. And our unity comes from our joint hatred for those who would wish to destroy the essense of humanity that we hold dear.

The other six factions, to an extent, are all "human" factions, despite some of their pessimistic views of human nature. Only the Hive is completely non-human in nature and thus garners the hatred of every other faction.

posted 11-29-98 08:49 PM ET            

Speak for yourself. You see humans as self-centered, greedy, egomaniacal, power-craving agents but that is not truly human nature. Humans are compassionate, cooperative, and understanding of each other. The view of humanity you put forward is a lie, meant to decieve the oppressed. If you can convince the oppressed to believe that they are as bad as the oppressors, then you will break their will to revolt against you. You wish everyone to believe that his desire to feed himself and his family, and provide for their safety and security, is acting on the same impulses that drive the elite to acquire for the sake of acquiring. That is just not so. Every man has certain basic needs in life, but once those are satisfied, he can show his true nature, and join his fellow man in friendship. The Hive exists as a refuge for these poor souls, a place where they can come and share in true brotherhood. The heartless, exploitative despots who run your societies need not apply.

posted 11-29-98 09:18 PM ET            

Kind of hard to assemble all by yourself, peacably or otherwise, eh AUH20? Sounds like a right that can only be exercised by a group to me...

posted 11-29-98 10:12 PM ET            

And they did a bang-up job on Earth, too. Why don't you and the rest of your faction pack up and head back? Planet will be better off without you...

Seriously, though, you confuse a desire for safety, security, and prosperity with pointless greed. Your inability to see the difference is the source of the strife you find in your society.

posted 11-29-98 10:49 PM ET            

Which factions do each faction they are most able to cooperate with and which factions doe each faction loathe?

My thoughts:

WHO THEY ARE MOST LIKELY TO COOPERATE WITH:
Peacekeepers:
UofP, Gaians

Morganites:
UofP, Spartans, Peacekeepers

Spartans:
Morganites, UofP, Peacekeepers

Gaians:
Peacekeepers, Believers

Believers:
Gaians, Peacekeepers

UofP:
Peacekeepers, Morganites

Hive:
none (at least the Hive Octopus has described)

WHO THEY LOATHE MOST:

Peacekepers:
HIVE, Spartans

Morganites:
HIVE, Gaians

Spartans:
Hive, Gaians

Gaians:
Morganites, Hive

Believers:
HIVE, UofP

UofP:
HIVE, Believers

posted 11-29-98 11:10 PM ET            

Now, the hatred on these boards aside (help stop the hate! ) I don't think that all of the factions will be so anti-Hive. The Peacekeepers, UoP, and Gaians are likely to be far too socialist for the tastes of Morgan. The Spartans are very warlike, so the PKs will not get along with them very well. I personally don't see what the Gaians would have against the Hive. If the Hive turns out to be heavy polluters, that's one thing, but I don't think the Gaians have any philosophical opposition ot the Hive. I don't think that the UoP will necessarily dislike the Hive, either. I also don't think the PK's will be too anti-Hive, since the Hive is likely to be quite isolationist, and therefore not a bunch of troublemakers like the Spartans. The Spartans are likely to dislike the PKs, as well, since the Spartans don't like to be told what to do (just read the story!).

posted 11-29-98 11:29 PM ET            

Greed? Greed is but loving oneself overmuch, and not any other.

posted 11-29-98 11:46 PM ET            

"The ideals which have always shone before me and filled me with the joy of living are goodness, beauty, and truth. To make a goal of comfort or happiness has never appealed to me; a system of ethics built on this basis would be sufficient only for a herd of cattle."
-Albert Einstein

The peacekeepers have an inherently humanistic system of ethics.

"Humanism is a philosophy of joyous service for the greater good of all humanity, of application of new ideas of scientific progress
for the benefit of all."
-- Linus Pauling

posted 11-30-98 12:07 AM ET            

Still, even if the Hive is nice to the Enviorment, the fairly democratic Gaians would never feel comforable with the Hive.

And the UoP would, just like the Gaians, dislike the Hive's form of government, but not enough to have a huge vendetta against them (like the Believers and Morganites would).

Arnelos's chart is extremely correct (one dispute: The Spartans willing to co-operate with the PK's. While this would be the best for them, the PK's hate the Spartans, as mentioned lower in the chart. So some weird relations): The Hive would probably have an exciting and short life on Chiron. The UoP would have people batting down its door to be friends with them. The Spartans would have to play expert diplomatic pool to overcome their initial diplomatic disadvantage, but they could do it. Then would come a bizarre series of entangling alliances for survival more complex than in the decades before World War I, insured because any unallied faction would be a prime target for occupation by another alliance. You might end up with the Believers declaring war on the Morganites. The Morganites have an alliance with the UoP, who has an alliance with the PK's, who have an alliance with the Gaians, who have an alliance with the Believers. The PK's are now bound by 2 second hand alliances to enter a conflict on both sides! Or they could break both alliances and piss everyone off. Fun games of diplomacy.

posted 11-30-98 12:20 AM ET            

The pluralistic nature of peacekeeper society then allows for divergence of opinion amonst all those who can agree with peacekeeper thought. In addition, the peacekeepers really don't see the need for conquering all of the other factions since they recognize the various manners in which those factions are pursuing their own ideal of human potential (especially the UofP). Obviously, the peacekeeping faction might go about many of these things differently, but are capable of accepting the views of other factions. Thus the peacekeepers are much more able to both get along with other factions and to absorb the members of other factions (the Hive is going to have a big problem with this, since people devoted to non-Hive ideals are going to be real sticky about giving up their rights and individuality. In the end, the Hive will be forced to become a brutal police state whether its planners had seen it that way or not). This may be the reason the peacekeepers get inherent population bonuses. Perhaps the designers are working in the broader apeal of the peacekeeper ideology (afterall, capitalists, socialists, believers, atheists, industrialists, and environmentalists could all work and live in the peacekeeper community, where many of those groups would have a problem in other factions).

posted 11-30-98 12:43 AM ET            

Especially if we have leagues. Though I suppose it could be useful to have permanent alliances with some of the better players. Hmmm...

As for the whole Hive thing, I think the whole point of the hive is to do away with Greed. Thus I believe they will be the most opposed to the Morganites and the Spartans, both of which use greed as the basis of their faction.

I also believe that looking at the Hive as the Borg is fundamentally wrong. I see them as more the utopian Socialists (or is it communists, I always confuse the two). From each according to his abilities, to each, according to his needs.

I don't see them as suppressing individualism, more as supressing greed. Could be wrong, but I'll have to wait for the game to be sure...

posted 11-30-98 12:49 AM ET            

It's just you . Seriously, though, the Morganites (if Imran is to be believed) value greed above everything, so my comments definitely apply to them. To the extent that each of the other factions distance themselves from the Morgan philosophy, they distance themselves from the brunt of my attack. However, unless someone renounce that philosophy completely (i.e. joins the Hive) they are still implicated, just to a lesser extent.

And, as for those who do not believe in the Hive's philosophy, we don't want them. It is our goal to enlighten everyone, so they give up their misguided resistance to the Hive's way. If someone refuses to be enlightened, they would not benefit our society, and our society will not waste time or resources on them. However, our complete devotion to humanity compels us to show you the error of your ways, and give you every opportunity to seek the truth, and join the Hive.

posted 11-30-98 01:39 AM ET            

So if I formed a custom faction, it would have a science value choice, a free market, free market, and delibrative democracy. It wouldn't be a pure democracy, not even to the point of the US being a pure democracy because there would be no universal sufferage. There would be some sort of test citizens are recquired to take to vote. And as far as societal structure? Class differences are present-we ARE a free society. The wealthy are those who have earned their wealth-the poor the unskilled labor and those who squandered their wealth.

I still have trouble sympasizing with the Hive. "Atheistic Police State" and "Culture of Serfdom" sound pretty nasty to me. Also, I still maintain that only individuals can be free-the first amendement garuntees the right of individuals to assemble, and 99.9% of assemblies are going to have dischord within.

posted 11-30-98 01:59 AM ET            

So, AUH2O, in your society would you outlaw inheritance, since the person on the recieving end didn't "earn" it? (or, conversely, so children don't pay for their parents' financial blunders).

"There would be some sort of test citizens are recquired to take to vote."

Sounds to me like an invitation for somebody to rig the test so that only the "right" people voted.

posted 11-30-98 07:48 AM ET            

This anti-Hive thing is getting more and more like a witchhunt.
There are entirely too much attention on rights and too little on duties in the individual contra community debate. It might be that liberalism maximizes the scope of individual rights that can be held (most of which will only be exercised by those lucky few who have the dubious ability to outsmart the rest of us), but at which expense? The prize a truly liberalistic society pays is
the that the privileged are under no obligation to make provisions for those less fortunate in their society. The samaritan, driven by compassion is a endangered species here, since using your ressources for anything other than promotion of your own cause is putting yourself at a disadvantage competition-wise.
Though the inefficiency of large bureaucracies can make anyone sick to their stomach, at least here the problem is at system level: Bureaucracies inherently accumulates inefficiency with size, because the individual loses sight of the cause-effect chain in the bureaucracy as a whole and become selfish. Communism and other large-society ideologies biggest problem is a practical organizational one. However their biggest force is the fact that the very system is founded on duties before rights rather than the other way around. This seems to me to be the way to go if you have ambitions on mankinds behalf as well as on your own.
A liberalist society is fundamentally based on an each (wo)man for himself. The fundamental idea is pretty much like a pyramid games/organizations that have haunted western societies for decades now and almost provoked a civil war in Albania: You know that your fortune must somehow somewhere be based on somebody elses misfortune. You get around this by saying: "The unfortunate people are as free as me, have had the same chances as me and therefore are at their own fault for not getting as far as me. This gives me the right to use the ressources I've gained to whatever I deem reasonable.". Not a single word on intentions - right or wrong - and not a word about what duties are to be served in exchange for all that liberty. The ideology is fundamentally flawed, which IMO is more problematic and harder to work around in the long run than the practical difficulties of making big bureaucracies efficient (a problem that relly large companies are also facing, BTW)

So, though both individualism and collectivism (in a general sense) have their disadvantages, I'll stick to the latter one, because I fundamentally like my fellow man and would like a open and trust-based relationship with him, even if it means that I'll get disappointed once in a while.

posted 11-30-98 05:06 PM ET            

Spartans:
Morganites(both are renegades), Believers (Message that Santiago sent by to Miriam)

Hive:
UoP(Saratov's comments to Raymond), PK(both are extremely loyal to Garland's authority)

Morganites:
UoP(Morgan's bribery of Imran), Spartans(both are renegades)

Gaians:
Believers(one exiting the other's room at beginning of scene. I forget for what reason), Lal(amiable working relationship while monitoring ship at beginning of story)

UoP:
Hive(Saratov's comments to Raymond), Morganites(Morgan bribing Imran)

Grudges according to the story would be...

Spartans:
Almost everyone- Hive(Yang's Imprisonment), Gaians (Santiago's taking Diedre hostage), UoP (Saratov armed his men against the Spartans), PK(conflicting aims of war and peace)

Believers:
UoP(the conversation about faith), Hive (atheist)

UoP:
Gaians(dislikes Diedre usurping his authority in science division), Spartans(Saratov armed his men for the purpose of killing Spartans), Believers (faith conversation)

PK:
Spartans(conflicting aims of war/peace), UoP(Lal disliked Saratov's arming his men)

Gaians:
Morganites(conversation about the promise of a new planet), Spartans (Hydroponics bay fiasco)