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Author Topic:   Hivespeak

Octopus posted 11-17-98 12:07 AM ET
Well, as I announced in "The Human Hive vs. The Morgan Conglomerate", I have recently converted to supporting the Human Hive. I started this thread so that Hive supporters, in traditional Hive fashion, can present a united front to all of the detractors out there.
So, my question for the rest of you Hive supporters (by the way, the rest of you non-Hive types need not apply -- although you'll probably post here anyway, since the Hive is the most maligned faction) is: what do we believe, and how do we explain it?
First, I've taken to refering to the Hive as "the Hive" or "the Human Hive", rather than "we" or "us", to indicate that the Hive is much more than the sum of its individual members. I also try to refer to benefits in the abstract, so good things about the Hive are enjoyed by "a member of the Hive" rather than by "me" or someone else specific (this also reinforces that there is no difference in worth between the individual members of the Hive). This sound a little pretentious? Maybe so, but I like to post in character . So, any comments or suggestions on how to talk about the Hive? Anyone got a better name for a member of the Hive than "member"? I've also been doing things like saying "so-called free societies" to point out that those benefits in other societies may be illusory, at best.
Now, on to policy: The only real policy objective I've identified for the Hive is "efficency" (granted, this covers a lot). Anyone got any others?
Responses to common objections:
1) "There are no civil liberties in the Hive". The response I've been giving has been "don't need 'em, don't want 'em". Basically, nobody in the Hive WANTS to protest the government, so these freedoms aren't missed.
2) "You have no individual initiative" The response I've been giving to this is that any idea that benefits the Hive as a whole will be encouraged, whereas in "free" societies only ideas that work in the narrowest of self-interest will be encouraged (i.e. nobody puts forth an idea that will make his neighbor a million dollars). Thus, the Hive ENCOURAGES individuals to express their initiative in the most useful way imaginable.
3) The Hive is just another dictatorship. Not so! The Hive is a new and glorious form of government, where each individual works in an optimal manner in a task for which they are optimally suited. Different people aren't given different benefits for doing different jobs. The Hive recongnizes that each person and each job are vital to the Hive as a whole. No member of the Hive is better than another, just different.
We need to present a united rhetorical front on these boards. We're vastly outnumbered (especially by those damned Spartans). So, what do the rest of you Hive-people think? (I know you're out there! ).

SnowFire posted 11-17-98 12:21 AM ET
"Basically, nobody in the Hive WANTS to protest the government."
And what if the government does something wrong? (or do you pretend that your government is infallible and never makes mistakes?) How will people let them know? How will redress be given?
"any idea that benefits the Hive as a whole will be encouraged."
How so? I come up with the super-duper vaccine that safeguards thousands of hivesters against deisease, and I get no recognition other than "good job?" How will people be rewarded to insure that happens?
Octopus posted 11-17-98 12:37 AM ET
The government will make mistakes, since governments invariably do. However, since those in the government will be ideally suited to their jobs, they will be the first to recognize mistakes, and the first to accept the advice or criticism of their fellow members.
The satisfaction of knowing that you have helped the Hive will be your reward. All members of the Hive contribute. Did the janitor who cleaned the equipment in your lab contribute to the betterment of the Hive? Yes. His reward is similar to your own, satisfaction in knowing that his work has contributing to the well-being of all, and facilitated the work of others. The arbitrary distinctions you wish to draw based on "accomplishment" are a result of the individual-ist brainwashing you have been subjected to. Discover enlightenment within the Hive.
The Hive is the future. Join now, before the tide of history washes you away.
Firehawk posted 11-17-98 12:58 AM ET
Read Seely's "Hive Supporters Post Here" thread for some good arguments. As for Hivespeak, some conventions were developed there. Capitalize liberally, especially when talking about We or Us or the Collective. Avoid at all costs the first person pronoun. You know: "I". Each member of the Hive is an Element. The Hive is the collection of these Elements, but it is also an entity in itself, an �berbeing.
-Firehawk
Element 16859
The Collective forever! It is the next step in the evolution of humanity!
Seely posted 11-17-98 01:05 AM ET
Finally, Hive supporters have kickstarted a number of posts-- we have been silenced for too long. I too stay in character on my posts-- read my responses on "The Spartan Problem" post to properly understand my philosophy on The Hive and why it will be a very powerful and Humanity-oriented faction.
I debunk all the theories that The Hive is a traditional despotic earth-type government. We expand consciousness beyond the self, to a collective good.
Please, Hive-haters, quit harping on the lack of individual freedoms and Hive members' tendencies to revolt based on lack of personal reward. These issues have already been disproven. Personal reward does not exist in The Hive-- you detractors continue to apply your own selfish beliefs to The Hive, forgetting that such selfishness does not exist within its borders. The members of The Hive have expanded their consciousness beyond the self-- every task performed is for Humanity. Rewards and credit aren't necessary, because all elements of The Hive see no point in them. In The Hive's way of thinking, there is no definition of "reward" or "credit". These are terms applied to selfish beings seeking only personal gain.
Individual freedoms are pointless. What Body can function if it's cells are all independent entities, striving to go in millions of directions at once? All elements of The Hive are there to ensure that the Body stays healthy and grows strong. The achievements of the Body are paramount, and are accomplished only through the diligence and efficiency of the elements. Individual freedoms are irrelevant and undefined in an element's mind.
Again, these issues have been addressed in the simplest sense possible. Detractors, please find new subjects/flaws to address.
Seely
Element 394303
Oh, and Octopus, I think the term "Element" is a good one to use when describing members of The Hive. I believe Talon or Firehawk used that term on previous posts.
Firehawk posted 11-17-98 01:08 AM ET
Sorry, Octopus, didn't see your original questions. We believe in the advancement of Humanity. The advancement of Humanity and the Collective specifically is all that matters.
<RAMBLE>
Individuality is pointless and inefficient. We recognize the true meaning of E Pluribus Unum. Although many bodies, we are one mind, one goal. Someday that will come true in reality, and until then we will support each other in a way that poor nonelements could not even understand. Such is the advantage of living in the Hive. For the first time ever, each of the Elements is not alone, but part of something greater. Nonelements are alone in the universe. The efficiency that comes with specialization and Collectivity makes Us the most powerful group of Humanity. Someday we will assimilate all, and there will be no more wars, no more conflict, no more privation, because we will all share the goal of the advancement of Humanity, and Humanity will take its rightful place in the universe!
</RAMBLE>
-Firehawk
Element 16859
Firehawk posted 11-17-98 01:11 AM ET
Welcome, Seely. One of Our most eloquent advocates has arrived. Beautiful analogy with the Body. It is a perfect description of the Hive. Take note, all you poor nonelements. Do you understand now?
-Firehawk
Element 16859
Octopus posted 11-17-98 01:29 AM ET
Here's my take on it: We're NOT the Borg. There are individuals within the Hive. That is what makes the Hive strong. Each individual has different talents which allows him or her to contribute in different ways. The Detractors immediately assume that since something is good for society it must necessarily be bad for the individual. Not true! In the Hive, the goals of the individual and the goals of society are aligned! What is good for the Hive is good for each member of the Hive, and what is truly good for each member of the Hive is good for the Hive as a whole. The Detractors assume that in order to prosper they must cheat and exploit their neighbors. In the Hive, the members recognize that they must work with their fellows to achieve TRUE prosperity. In Detractor societies, the man at the highest point on a sinking ship is looked upon with praise. In The Hive, the workers repairing the leak are honored.
I don't think collective consciousness is necessary, and may not even be desirable. There is an old saying, "two heads are better than one". The Hive takes that to the next level, countless heads all working in the same direction. Trying to "unite" the disparate minds of each member might be counterproductive to the overall goal.
I don't really like "element". I think it is a bit two antiseptic for my tastes. In nature, a hive is a structure buzzing with life, not a sterile construct. The Human Hive is the same thing. The contributions of the members make up the Hive. Each individual is to be honored and valued for his or her contribution. Individuality is not something to be feared or ridiculed, it is to be recognized for what it is: a distinction that makes sense in some contexts but not in others. Water is made up of molecules of H20. However, each individual molecule of water does not necessarily possess the qualities that we associate with water, such as fluidity. Talking about H20 has its place, but it is not the whole story when it comes to water. The same is true of the Hive. The Hive is made up of individuals, but the Hive is more than just many individuals.
Firehawk posted 11-17-98 02:05 AM ET
It appears that there are two distinct factions within the Human Hive. The Borg/Body/Collective, and Octopus. What are you, Seely?
Firehawk posted 11-17-98 02:18 AM ET
Stepping out of character for a moment: Oops, forgot my sig. And I need more posts anyway, to get back to member regulare. Alas now humdrum life is called, bye for tonight.
-Firehawk
Element 16859
of the Collective (to distinguish from Octopus' Hive�I have no quarrel with your view of the Hive, Octopus, and I don't think that mine is more right...it's just that I have my view and that's the way it is)
Seely posted 11-17-98 03:47 AM ET
Out of character for a moment--
I base my assumptions of the nature of The Hive on Yang's bio. His snippet of writing seems to indicate a transcendent mental state-- something that strives for a collective human consciousness. Also, I've based my beliefs on the collective consciousness on such "dystopian" sci-fi works as Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" and "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley. The power of the human mind to evolve beyond self is also well represented in Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End", an excellent work on the possible future of humanity. Octopus' theories on the nature of The Hive is actually probably closer to what the game will represent. Also, I do agree that all elements within The Hive will be tested for aptitude in respective areas of labor, be it research and development, chemistry, or simply sweeping floors. Eventually I could see genetic engineering appearing in The Hive, something akin to "Brave New World" were people were literally designed to work certain jobs, and mentally conditioned to receive a great sense of fulfillment in that job. However, this is against my belief that The Hive's elements will not require personal fulfillment, if they've achieved Yang's vision of an expanded mind that goes beyond body and self. Remember Yang's mental abilities, and his mastery of teaching others. This is important-- mental conditioning will be the mainstay of The Hive. Humanity must unlearn what it has learned. (To quote another great mind. )
While collective consciousness will not be an aspect of the game, I can see it as a goal Yang would envision, and I imagine that at least telepathy of some sort will show up in the game. Remember that Yang seeks to expand the human mind beyond its current feeble powers. That is not an unworthy goal, and most detractors of The Hive fail to see that, choosing instead to focus on freedoms taken away and mental chains, versus the True Vision of clarity of thought, purity of mind, and Collective Humanity.
So, I support Octopus' concept of workers' doing what they're optimal for, but not any sense of reward or celebration of individual achievements. IMO, that goes directly against Yang's vision. Any celebrations will be of The Hive's achievements, not any one element's achievements for The Hive.
Seely
Element 394303
Octopus posted 11-17-98 11:59 AM ET
"The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment" -- Sheng-ji Yang.
It is the goals which are transcendant, not the mind. The mind merely needs to be realigned to recognize those goals.
I don't believe that individual achievements will be celebrated, just that the individual contributions of people will be understood and appreciated. For example, Yang is uniquely qualified for his position, and he will be appreciated for that. Personal satisfaction in a job well done will be all the reward that Hive members need, but that doesn't mean people won't say things like "hey, good job!" or "nice going!" when somebody does their job well. That is what I mean be recognition and celebration of the individual. You would be saying something analagous to "you accomplish your task with great efficiency and skill, better than I could hope to do it, because you are better at your task than I am, just as I am better at my task than you are. I am grateful that you are also a member of the Hive, because you make us all stronger".
Oh well. If you guys like collective consciousness, I suppose we can put that on the table in a couple hundred years. Who says there can't be internal disagreements in the Hive?
jfrazier posted 11-17-98 02:04 PM ET
Octopus:
We need an alliance. As I mentioned in your other threads, imagine landing on that strange alien world. People disorganized, threats of terrain, wildlife, etc. Fear is a powerful trait. I see the Hive as the first "efficient" faction to operate on the planet. While Santiago is looking for enemies, we will be building defenses, organizing work details, stressing goals and plans, etc.
I am not saying the Hive is the long-term answer for hundreds of years, but it certainly is the shortterm answer.
Jeff
Ceasar of the Stars
Antiam posted 11-17-98 04:28 PM ET
The Hive is similar, and may in fact be the precursor, to the Bene Gesserit from Dune. We exist to preserve humanity, not human beings, but humanity. We recognize the difference between man and the man-animal. If trapped an animal would chew through it's own leg to free itself, while a human would wait for the hunter to return and attempt to remove the threat to its kind. The Hive is a school, a government, a business, and a family. Furthermore, We realize the untapped power of the human mind, and strive to better ourselves. Soon the day will come when We will hold the Gom Jabbar to the Spartan's necks and show what animals they have become.
Bashar Antiam Jabbar
Octopus posted 11-18-98 03:11 AM ET
Jeff: Not the long term solution?! Are you mad?!?!?!?!
What do you think the Hive is all about? Are you a collectivist, or do you agree with me? (Or, horror of horrors, is there a Third Option?).
Borodino posted 11-18-98 08:18 PM ET
Octopus et al.:
There is always a third option.
Anyway, as to your element/member question, a suggestion from the old boards was "citizen", promoted as being sufficently non-Borgian without compromising the essential one-ness of the Hive.
Also, I disavow any connections with this faction. My message is simply that of an interested outsider.
Jeremy Allen Borodino
Minister of Extra-Factional Affairs
The Peacekeeping Forces
Octopus posted 11-18-98 11:15 PM ET
I considered citizen, or Citizen, but I didn't think it carried enough oomph. All of the factions are going to have citizens...
I was joking about a third option being scary. There have been only two proposals for what the Hive is all about, mine and the "collective" view, at least that I have seen on these boards to date.
Or, if I were to answer in character: Of course there is a third option. You could choose to die alone, regretting your decision to abandon the Hive when it was ready to accept you.
Octopus posted 11-19-98 01:29 AM ET
I don't want to interrupt the "This Day In History" thread with an out of place question, so I'll post it here and hope that BigER responds: Did you pick this thread out intentionally, or was it just the first Hive related thread you saw? Just curious
I must say that I share Frank17's suspicions about those detestable Spartans, though. You just can't trust 'em .
To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


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Author	Topic: Hivespeak
Octopus	posted 11-17-98 12:07 AM ET Well, as I announced in "The Human Hive vs. The Morgan Conglomerate", I have recently converted to supporting the Human Hive. I started this thread so that Hive supporters, in traditional Hive fashion, can present a united front to all of the detractors out there. So, my question for the rest of you Hive supporters (by the way, the rest of you non-Hive types need not apply -- although you'll probably post here anyway, since the Hive is the most maligned faction) is: what do we believe, and how do we explain it? First, I've taken to refering to the Hive as "the Hive" or "the Human Hive", rather than "we" or "us", to indicate that the Hive is much more than the sum of its individual members. I also try to refer to benefits in the abstract, so good things about the Hive are enjoyed by "a member of the Hive" rather than by "me" or someone else specific (this also reinforces that there is no difference in worth between the individual members of the Hive). This sound a little pretentious? Maybe so, but I like to post in character . So, any comments or suggestions on how to talk about the Hive? Anyone got a better name for a member of the Hive than "member"? I've also been doing things like saying "so-called free societies" to point out that those benefits in other societies may be illusory, at best. Now, on to policy: The only real policy objective I've identified for the Hive is "efficency" (granted, this covers a lot). Anyone got any others? Responses to common objections: 1) "There are no civil liberties in the Hive". The response I've been giving has been "don't need 'em, don't want 'em". Basically, nobody in the Hive WANTS to protest the government, so these freedoms aren't missed. 2) "You have no individual initiative" The response I've been giving to this is that any idea that benefits the Hive as a whole will be encouraged, whereas in "free" societies only ideas that work in the narrowest of self-interest will be encouraged (i.e. nobody puts forth an idea that will make his neighbor a million dollars). Thus, the Hive ENCOURAGES individuals to express their initiative in the most useful way imaginable. 3) The Hive is just another dictatorship. Not so! The Hive is a new and glorious form of government, where each individual works in an optimal manner in a task for which they are optimally suited. Different people aren't given different benefits for doing different jobs. The Hive recongnizes that each person and each job are vital to the Hive as a whole. No member of the Hive is better than another, just different. We need to present a united rhetorical front on these boards. We're vastly outnumbered (especially by those damned Spartans). So, what do the rest of you Hive-people think? (I know you're out there! ).
SnowFire	posted 11-17-98 12:21 AM ET "Basically, nobody in the Hive WANTS to protest the government." And what if the government does something wrong? (or do you pretend that your government is infallible and never makes mistakes?) How will people let them know? How will redress be given? "any idea that benefits the Hive as a whole will be encouraged." How so? I come up with the super-duper vaccine that safeguards thousands of hivesters against deisease, and I get no recognition other than "good job?" How will people be rewarded to insure that happens?
Octopus	posted 11-17-98 12:37 AM ET The government will make mistakes, since governments invariably do. However, since those in the government will be ideally suited to their jobs, they will be the first to recognize mistakes, and the first to accept the advice or criticism of their fellow members. The satisfaction of knowing that you have helped the Hive will be your reward. All members of the Hive contribute. Did the janitor who cleaned the equipment in your lab contribute to the betterment of the Hive? Yes. His reward is similar to your own, satisfaction in knowing that his work has contributing to the well-being of all, and facilitated the work of others. The arbitrary distinctions you wish to draw based on "accomplishment" are a result of the individual-ist brainwashing you have been subjected to. Discover enlightenment within the Hive. The Hive is the future. Join now, before the tide of history washes you away.
Firehawk	posted 11-17-98 12:58 AM ET Read Seely's "Hive Supporters Post Here" thread for some good arguments. As for Hivespeak, some conventions were developed there. Capitalize liberally, especially when talking about We or Us or the Collective. Avoid at all costs the first person pronoun. You know: "I". Each member of the Hive is an Element. The Hive is the collection of these Elements, but it is also an entity in itself, an �berbeing. -Firehawk Element 16859 The Collective forever! It is the next step in the evolution of humanity!
Seely	posted 11-17-98 01:05 AM ET Finally, Hive supporters have kickstarted a number of posts-- we have been silenced for too long. I too stay in character on my posts-- read my responses on "The Spartan Problem" post to properly understand my philosophy on The Hive and why it will be a very powerful and Humanity-oriented faction. I debunk all the theories that The Hive is a traditional despotic earth-type government. We expand consciousness beyond the self, to a collective good. Please, Hive-haters, quit harping on the lack of individual freedoms and Hive members' tendencies to revolt based on lack of personal reward. These issues have already been disproven. Personal reward does not exist in The Hive-- you detractors continue to apply your own selfish beliefs to The Hive, forgetting that such selfishness does not exist within its borders. The members of The Hive have expanded their consciousness beyond the self-- every task performed is for Humanity. Rewards and credit aren't necessary, because all elements of The Hive see no point in them. In The Hive's way of thinking, there is no definition of "reward" or "credit". These are terms applied to selfish beings seeking only personal gain. Individual freedoms are pointless. What Body can function if it's cells are all independent entities, striving to go in millions of directions at once? All elements of The Hive are there to ensure that the Body stays healthy and grows strong. The achievements of the Body are paramount, and are accomplished only through the diligence and efficiency of the elements. Individual freedoms are irrelevant and undefined in an element's mind. Again, these issues have been addressed in the simplest sense possible. Detractors, please find new subjects/flaws to address. Seely Element 394303 Oh, and Octopus, I think the term "Element" is a good one to use when describing members of The Hive. I believe Talon or Firehawk used that term on previous posts.
Firehawk	posted 11-17-98 01:08 AM ET Sorry, Octopus, didn't see your original questions. We believe in the advancement of Humanity. The advancement of Humanity and the Collective specifically is all that matters. <RAMBLE> Individuality is pointless and inefficient. We recognize the true meaning of E Pluribus Unum. Although many bodies, we are one mind, one goal. Someday that will come true in reality, and until then we will support each other in a way that poor nonelements could not even understand. Such is the advantage of living in the Hive. For the first time ever, each of the Elements is not alone, but part of something greater. Nonelements are alone in the universe. The efficiency that comes with specialization and Collectivity makes Us the most powerful group of Humanity. Someday we will assimilate all, and there will be no more wars, no more conflict, no more privation, because we will all share the goal of the advancement of Humanity, and Humanity will take its rightful place in the universe! </RAMBLE> -Firehawk Element 16859
Firehawk	posted 11-17-98 01:11 AM ET Welcome, Seely. One of Our most eloquent advocates has arrived. Beautiful analogy with the Body. It is a perfect description of the Hive. Take note, all you poor nonelements. Do you understand now? -Firehawk Element 16859
Octopus	posted 11-17-98 01:29 AM ET Here's my take on it: We're NOT the Borg. There are individuals within the Hive. That is what makes the Hive strong. Each individual has different talents which allows him or her to contribute in different ways. The Detractors immediately assume that since something is good for society it must necessarily be bad for the individual. Not true! In the Hive, the goals of the individual and the goals of society are aligned! What is good for the Hive is good for each member of the Hive, and what is truly good for each member of the Hive is good for the Hive as a whole. The Detractors assume that in order to prosper they must cheat and exploit their neighbors. In the Hive, the members recognize that they must work with their fellows to achieve TRUE prosperity. In Detractor societies, the man at the highest point on a sinking ship is looked upon with praise. In The Hive, the workers repairing the leak are honored. I don't think collective consciousness is necessary, and may not even be desirable. There is an old saying, "two heads are better than one". The Hive takes that to the next level, countless heads all working in the same direction. Trying to "unite" the disparate minds of each member might be counterproductive to the overall goal. I don't really like "element". I think it is a bit two antiseptic for my tastes. In nature, a hive is a structure buzzing with life, not a sterile construct. The Human Hive is the same thing. The contributions of the members make up the Hive. Each individual is to be honored and valued for his or her contribution. Individuality is not something to be feared or ridiculed, it is to be recognized for what it is: a distinction that makes sense in some contexts but not in others. Water is made up of molecules of H20. However, each individual molecule of water does not necessarily possess the qualities that we associate with water, such as fluidity. Talking about H20 has its place, but it is not the whole story when it comes to water. The same is true of the Hive. The Hive is made up of individuals, but the Hive is more than just many individuals.
Firehawk	posted 11-17-98 02:05 AM ET It appears that there are two distinct factions within the Human Hive. The Borg/Body/Collective, and Octopus. What are you, Seely?
Firehawk	posted 11-17-98 02:18 AM ET Stepping out of character for a moment: Oops, forgot my sig. And I need more posts anyway, to get back to member regulare. Alas now humdrum life is called, bye for tonight. -Firehawk Element 16859 of the Collective (to distinguish from Octopus' Hive�I have no quarrel with your view of the Hive, Octopus, and I don't think that mine is more right...it's just that I have my view and that's the way it is)
Seely	posted 11-17-98 03:47 AM ET Out of character for a moment-- I base my assumptions of the nature of The Hive on Yang's bio. His snippet of writing seems to indicate a transcendent mental state-- something that strives for a collective human consciousness. Also, I've based my beliefs on the collective consciousness on such "dystopian" sci-fi works as Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" and "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley. The power of the human mind to evolve beyond self is also well represented in Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End", an excellent work on the possible future of humanity. Octopus' theories on the nature of The Hive is actually probably closer to what the game will represent. Also, I do agree that all elements within The Hive will be tested for aptitude in respective areas of labor, be it research and development, chemistry, or simply sweeping floors. Eventually I could see genetic engineering appearing in The Hive, something akin to "Brave New World" were people were literally designed to work certain jobs, and mentally conditioned to receive a great sense of fulfillment in that job. However, this is against my belief that The Hive's elements will not require personal fulfillment, if they've achieved Yang's vision of an expanded mind that goes beyond body and self. Remember Yang's mental abilities, and his mastery of teaching others. This is important-- mental conditioning will be the mainstay of The Hive. Humanity must unlearn what it has learned. (To quote another great mind. ) While collective consciousness will not be an aspect of the game, I can see it as a goal Yang would envision, and I imagine that at least telepathy of some sort will show up in the game. Remember that Yang seeks to expand the human mind beyond its current feeble powers. That is not an unworthy goal, and most detractors of The Hive fail to see that, choosing instead to focus on freedoms taken away and mental chains, versus the True Vision of clarity of thought, purity of mind, and Collective Humanity. So, I support Octopus' concept of workers' doing what they're optimal for, but not any sense of reward or celebration of individual achievements. IMO, that goes directly against Yang's vision. Any celebrations will be of The Hive's achievements, not any one element's achievements for The Hive. Seely Element 394303
Octopus	posted 11-17-98 11:59 AM ET "The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment" -- Sheng-ji Yang. It is the goals which are transcendant, not the mind. The mind merely needs to be realigned to recognize those goals. I don't believe that individual achievements will be celebrated, just that the individual contributions of people will be understood and appreciated. For example, Yang is uniquely qualified for his position, and he will be appreciated for that. Personal satisfaction in a job well done will be all the reward that Hive members need, but that doesn't mean people won't say things like "hey, good job!" or "nice going!" when somebody does their job well. That is what I mean be recognition and celebration of the individual. You would be saying something analagous to "you accomplish your task with great efficiency and skill, better than I could hope to do it, because you are better at your task than I am, just as I am better at my task than you are. I am grateful that you are also a member of the Hive, because you make us all stronger". Oh well. If you guys like collective consciousness, I suppose we can put that on the table in a couple hundred years. Who says there can't be internal disagreements in the Hive?
jfrazier	posted 11-17-98 02:04 PM ET Octopus: We need an alliance. As I mentioned in your other threads, imagine landing on that strange alien world. People disorganized, threats of terrain, wildlife, etc. Fear is a powerful trait. I see the Hive as the first "efficient" faction to operate on the planet. While Santiago is looking for enemies, we will be building defenses, organizing work details, stressing goals and plans, etc. I am not saying the Hive is the long-term answer for hundreds of years, but it certainly is the shortterm answer. Jeff Ceasar of the Stars
Antiam	posted 11-17-98 04:28 PM ET The Hive is similar, and may in fact be the precursor, to the Bene Gesserit from Dune. We exist to preserve humanity, not human beings, but humanity. We recognize the difference between man and the man-animal. If trapped an animal would chew through it's own leg to free itself, while a human would wait for the hunter to return and attempt to remove the threat to its kind. The Hive is a school, a government, a business, and a family. Furthermore, We realize the untapped power of the human mind, and strive to better ourselves. Soon the day will come when We will hold the Gom Jabbar to the Spartan's necks and show what animals they have become. Bashar Antiam Jabbar
Octopus	posted 11-18-98 03:11 AM ET Jeff: Not the long term solution?! Are you mad?!?!?!?! What do you think the Hive is all about? Are you a collectivist, or do you agree with me? (Or, horror of horrors, is there a Third Option?).
Borodino	posted 11-18-98 08:18 PM ET Octopus et al.: There is always a third option. Anyway, as to your element/member question, a suggestion from the old boards was "citizen", promoted as being sufficently non-Borgian without compromising the essential one-ness of the Hive. Also, I disavow any connections with this faction. My message is simply that of an interested outsider. Jeremy Allen Borodino Minister of Extra-Factional Affairs The Peacekeeping Forces
Octopus	posted 11-18-98 11:15 PM ET I considered citizen, or Citizen, but I didn't think it carried enough oomph. All of the factions are going to have citizens... I was joking about a third option being scary. There have been only two proposals for what the Hive is all about, mine and the "collective" view, at least that I have seen on these boards to date. Or, if I were to answer in character: Of course there is a third option. You could choose to die alone, regretting your decision to abandon the Hive when it was ready to accept you.
Octopus	posted 11-19-98 01:29 AM ET I don't want to interrupt the "This Day In History" thread with an out of place question, so I'll post it here and hope that BigER responds: Did you pick this thread out intentionally, or was it just the first Hive related thread you saw? Just curious I must say that I share Frank17's suspicions about those detestable Spartans, though. You just can't trust 'em .