What segment of SMAC are you looking forward to most

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Author Topic:   What segment of SMAC are you looking forward to most

BigER posted 11-13-98 12:08 PM ET
Kind of a long Title. Sorry.
Anyway, the thing I am looking forward to most is the Technology tree. Will it be editable, will the technology be cool, what will the pictures be like(will there be pictures) I just loved the tech tree in Civ. I know there will be so much to absorb. But this will definetly be my favourite.
Roland posted 11-13-98 12:17 PM ET
Which aspects ? ALL!
Most of all: Edible costume factions
(so much for weird typos or bad english).
Yes, faction customizing is what I want!
DJ RRebel posted 11-13-98 01:05 PM ET
yups ... The tech tree was a powerful weapon if you could defend your reseach well enough and had alot of those blue beakers !!!
jsorense posted 11-13-98 01:36 PM ET
Since I do not plan to play much multiplayer, I am looking forward to the AI. How will it emulate the military/diplomatic characteristics of the different Factions?
CClark posted 11-13-98 01:36 PM ET
Personally, I'm looking forward to the diplomacy, if they really expand on it from previous games in the genre. MOO2 had more diplomacy than MOO. CivII had more than Civ (I'm assuming, heretical as it is, I haven't played CivII). So I'm hoping that the scope and number of options in SMAC beats everything else out there.
Apart from that, I'm looking forward to the Special Projects. I always found the Wonders of the World in Civ to be cool and I'm hoping that the Special Projects are along the same lines.
DJ RRebel posted 11-13-98 01:47 PM ET
CC .. go play CIV2 ... it rocks !!!
Diplomacy will be what you want in multiplay, now that we can communicate with each other freely !!!
That's one option in Civ2 I didn't like >>> The fact that you only had a couple of choices, and sometimes certain options didn't come up when you wanted them to !!!
MikeH II posted 11-13-98 01:57 PM ET
I've got to admit I prefered Civ, mainly because you could win by fighting more easily. Overall I have played Civ II more though probably.
DAT posted 11-13-98 03:07 PM ET
What I'm most looking forward to is getting lost in the game, totally losing track of the day and time.
Since I have never played a multiplayer game, I will also be very interested in how well the AI gives the illusion of actual players representing the other factions. Will it adapt to my strategies?
jfrazier posted 11-13-98 04:41 PM ET
diplomacy seems to be my interest. I have never been much with economics or technology, I know they are important. I like trade, alliances, diplomacy. One thing I tried to ask Firaxis was whether or not the AI would allow us to ally with an opponent for joint operations??? Could you imagine playing a CIv II game as some civilization and planning a joint attack on some other civilization???

I am definatly looking forward to the diplomacy. The politics could be very interesting as well. I have a sneaky feeling SMAC is about to go where no game has gone before as we turn into the last year of the century!
Jeff
Ceasar of the Stars
outlyr242 the rebirth posted 11-13-98 04:43 PM ET
Diplomacy and game-time customizable units. I think these aspects will make each time thropugh a more unique expierence.
jfrazier posted 11-13-98 04:44 PM ET
BigER:
wouldn't it be neat if SMAC had a more advance form of "meeting the council" something similar to Civ II??? Especially if you could actively interact with there suggestions??? THAT WOULD BE COOL!
Jeff
Ceasar of the Stars
CClark posted 11-13-98 04:49 PM ET
O242, I forgot about the desingable units. That was one of my favorite things in MOO2. Ranks up with the diplomacy as far as things I'm looking forward to.
Also, the native lifeforms. I'm hoping that there are more than just the mind worms. If there were a dozen or so, that would be really interesting.
BigER posted 11-13-98 06:01 PM ET
jfrazier you bring up some interesting points, Diplomacy in SMAC could be ground breaking. I remember a game that came out in the 70's called Diplomacy. It was played on a board with a map of the world(somewhat modified) and where the pieces where small blocks. You had two kinds short blocks and long blocks the long ones being the navies.
Anyway the game was played in turns and you wrote orders for your armies, then all the orders were resolved at once. If their was a conflict moving into a country the armies bounced back. The really neat thing about this game was of course the diplomacy. You could get other armies to support your army (or navy) into a country(or water area). You could get other people to support you into these areas as well. So, the whole game centered around talking to other players and trying to get them to help you in your war effort. A pretty cool game really. It's only drawback was it's strengh. Multi player is what made it and also destoried it. Friends stabbing friends in the back, people ganging up on each other, etc.

Anyway my point is if you could add a diplomacy aspect to the game, you could have something very unique.
jfrazier posted 11-13-98 06:26 PM ET
BigER:
I remember that game. As a matter of fact, I recall some other old Avelone Hill games that are now coming out in CD form (although I am not sure they are as fun, but could have been made better). Remember that board game France 1940, where you had to play the Axis in trying to invade France within a certain amount of time? Also, Risk, and now, Axis & Allies is out with a CD game. I wonder if it is any good??? I read the Gamespot review on it and it sounded somewhat tempting.
Diplomacy could be a great draw for the loner player like myself. I happen to live in an area where people don't have much interest in true strategy games. If that council in Civ II could be enhanced in SMAC, wow!! whatch out. Could be fun. Also, I would like to be able to change my leader DURING A GAME. The thought of the old leader being deposed when the govt revolts or possibly being assasinated is appealing. What do you think?
Jeff
Ceasar of the Stars
The Thomas A Stobie posted 11-13-98 06:29 PM ET
I am looking forward to the multi-player play among good players. I wanted this in the original Civ I & Civ II, and look forward to see how Brian implements in SMAC.
Multi-player allows strategies to be born against an opponent that will react to them as opposed to an AI which has limited responses to what you do.
BigER posted 11-13-98 06:37 PM ET
jfrazier
I do indeed remember France 1940 and Risk and Axis and Allies. Although I hear the computer version is buggy-verify that there are patches out for it before you invest your dollars. Yes those were the days.
How about Third Reich, Global War, Junta, Panzer faust, Eastern front,Barbarosa, etc..
Man those bring back memories
Oh I almost forgot "The creature that ate Shaboygan" (sp)
BigER posted 11-13-98 06:41 PM ET
What else did you bring up...
Oh yes, Diplomacy in SMAC-for multiplay-it's a must. Although I must confess I prefer single player mode. I've had too many bad experiences playing on line. People tend to drop off when they start to lose! That sucks, you can really only be assured of playing a game all the way through if you are losing.
jfrazier posted 11-13-98 06:59 PM ET
BigER:
That is what I hate most about multiplayer online. I like a good AI. THe more versatile the AI, the more fun. I remember Barbarossa very well. One of my favorite games. I remember buying, at the time it was expensive, D-Day. That was a eight board game, took up half a living room! I mean, that game had all the units broken down into bicycle patallions, etc. A very interesting game. I remember when the games with large map sheets came out. World War II had the Japanese side of the war and included the conflict in China.
Big map sheet with a game called Russia, 1942 inwhich you tried establish a renewed offensive into southern Russia. It had all the detailed units and generals. That brings up another detail I would like SMAC to think about, and I have approached them: What about pieced identified as the leader? I mean, Napoleon had the Grande Armee and a special Guard? Stalin, Hitler, all the leaders of noteriety, had special units for protection. I can certainly see Santiago and Yang having special forces.
Another game I really enjoyed, and actually played just a year ago was Napoleon. Remember, all the major countries could be played on this two piece board game! Had all the generals in the conflict illustrated. I had a blast playing the Russian Campaign and using the Cossacks. Hey....maybe that is how to beat Santiago! Slow, frustrating, hit and run tactics, kind of like the Spainish did to Napoleon>>>..
Eric HalfBee posted 11-13-98 07:02 PM ET
The diplomacy and the indigenous life forms should be interesting.
However, the main thing I am looking forward to is the transcendence aspect. SMAC is the only computer game that I have seen that asks the philosophical question, what will we become? Are we condemned to remain savages, waging wars, using money etc. Or are we capable of becoming more. Playing SMAC should be like reading a good science fiction novel. One that makes you think about who we are, and who we are becoming.
Spoe posted 11-13-98 07:05 PM ET
For a quick game, I always liked Steve Jackson's Ogre series.
DHE_X2 posted 11-13-98 11:51 PM ET
Strategems that the AI uses. I hate it when I can figure out exactly how to beat an AI in half an hour. It really sucks, and I want a challenge, damnit! Also, the Multiplayer, and playing against some good strategists. Ought to be fun.
DCA posted 11-14-98 11:20 AM ET
Well, what I'm really hoping for is basically bigger-better-more Civ II, but with lots of diplomacy (& trade & intelligence etc) and some real military strategy (of which there is too little in the Civs, making the conquest approach sort of boring). The unit customization thingie should help. Also, I'd like to deploy forces in defensive positions all over my nation, actually defending the entire territory. This isn't really possible in Civ, as it requires excessive amounts of units and isn't worth it anyway (easier to just store a unit or two in the city, and then send it out to kill whoever's approaching).
DCA,
Here come the bells
DJ RRebel posted 11-14-98 11:34 AM ET
DAT ... I'm sure SMAC will be even more addicting than the Civs ... forget not knowing the date and time ... you're going to forget the month and year too !!!
As for the AI, don't get your hopes up too high .. even if the AI of this game will probably be the most advanced any of us will have seen to date, the complexity of programming it would take to make a truly human AI won't exist for at least another 10-20 years (more or less) ... I was dissapointed a bit in Civ2, when I realised (with the help of my spies) that my opponents weren't playing with the same rules as I was ... (the AI took alot of shortcut !!!) ... I realised that cities were much bigger then what they should have been, and that they supported way too many units than they should have !!!!
So that said, the AI will be challenging, but it still won't be comparable to a human opponant !!!! That's imposible at this stage ... the algoriths of a human mind at battle are just too complex to program at this stage, so they have to comprimize by letting the AI cheat a bit to give you a challenge !!! This isn't a bad thing in any way, it just makes it a little wierd a hard to predict simply because the AI sometimes doesn't do the most efficient things for itself !!!
DJ RRebel posted 11-14-98 11:40 AM ET
Jeff >>> Diplomacy will be far more advanced in this game than any other, but again, don't expect it to be drasticly different than in CIV2 !!! (with the exception of SMAC multiplay) !!! I remember that in Civ2, there was an option where you could trade world maps with other civs, I never got anyone to exchange with me ever ... even when I had discovered 75% of the world and the other civ only discovered about 10% maybe, more than half of which I had already discovered myself !!! Where was the advantage for the AI in that decision ???
Don't get me wrong though, SMAC diplomacy will be ahead of anything we've seen to date, but don't expect the AI to start planning in detail attack with you against another faction !!!
DJ RRebel posted 11-14-98 11:45 AM ET
Outlyr ... what's a thropugh ???
Jeff >> I'm sure SMAC will have its own advisors in this game, and I'm sure they will be more interactive than anything else we've seen, but again, (seems I keep going back to this point) keep in mind 1998 limits in technoligy, we won't be having a normal conversation with any of the advisors .. we should be able to ask them several pre-set questions though !!! (That is more than reasonably easy to do)
DJ RRebel posted 11-14-98 11:54 AM ET
CClark >>> Actually, the native life forms are one of the things I'm not looking forward to !!! It's one thing if you can only use them to your advantage, but if they start attacking you, then it becomes an uneven factor between you and the other factions !!! SMAC to me is about the race between 7 factions towards global dominance ... it's one thing for one of those faction to get in your way, that's expected, but if a native life form wipes out one or two of your first unit you build, you will be at a massive disadvange throughout the whole game, forced to play catchup with everyone else because of a random occurance !!!
BIGE >> You bring up a few good points with that Diplomacy game .. I wonder if people will to each game as a new start, or if we'll carry our grudges over with a particular person from game to game !!!
I'm thinking that probably most people will have the fresh start approach at first, but if you have the same guy kick your butt 3 games in a row, that you'll start being not so diplomatic with him at the start of new games !!!
DJ RRebel posted 11-14-98 12:09 PM ET
Jeff >>> Your reference to Risk is a good point, all Civ and SMAC like game have their origins from the board game Risk whether people admit it or not ... that was one good game for its time .. looking back, it's patheticly weak compared to anything on the computer, but the priciples of Civ games all have root in RISK !!!
TAS >>> You are completely right, playing with someone else in multi will change the face of the game 10000000% ... there will be no comparison between a AI game and a multi-game ... in fact, I think it's almost safe to say that there will be two type of SMAC shipping in January !!!
Did anyone play Theater Europe on the C-64 ???
I remember really liking that one, but not having any launch codes, so I would always get flattened halfway through the game !!! Does anyone have the manual to this game still ??? I really would have liked to play that with the nuke codes !!
Jeff >>> I like your idea of having a leader... could also be used as a unit against civil unrest !!!
EricB, DCA & DHE ... I agree with your points 100% !!!
DAT posted 11-14-98 04:53 PM ET
DJ RRebel... I would rather have the game AI cheat as it did in Civ 2 (including a production build with "margins" for faster builds) than has been implemented in many of the RTS games. Take AoE or StarCraft, for example. It was designed into those game that the speed of the computer, and the ability of the AI to make decisions faster, and redirect units far more efficiently than a human player would be part of the AI's advantage in the game. Even the absence of a build queue in AoE was designed so that you would have to make time-critical choices. Do I micromanage this battler (or that battle, or the one over there) or do I return to my base camp and manage additional unit builds, upgrades, and so forth.
A very long-winded way of saying that I trust Sid and Brian implicitly with regarding to the AI "cheating" and look forward to a very immersive (I know it's overused, but that's just because so many other games want the reputation that SM games have received) experience. My wife and kids are even aware that when SMAC ships I will be "gone" for awhile!
One last thought--I think your estimate of 20 years to human-like AI is far too long with regard to multiplayer gaming. I've seen some good examples, and heard of others that are on the way.
Jimmy posted 11-14-98 10:37 PM ET
I am looking to everything in SMAC. But if I had to chose, I would say that I am most looking to the diplomacy and specifically the Planetary Council. In the preview, it says that you not just elect a planetary governor but that you can win the whole game but getting the 3/4 th votes and being elected governor of AC. This will let diplomatic player win the game.
DHE_X2 posted 11-15-98 03:03 AM ET
What, are there three ways of winning now? Transcendence, conquest, and 3/4 vote?
BigER posted 11-16-98 12:01 PM ET
DJ RRebel yes, there will be grudge games and I will be looking for YOU!
OK OK I'm just kidding.
I never let personal feelings interfear with playing smart. I've played tabletop games far too long person to person to let player physcology disrupt my strategies.
Anyway, multi play for me will be seldom if ever. I'm always on the road.
Jsorenson. There was another game I used to play that took up a whole pingpong table in my basement-it took five guys playing twice a week a month and a half to finish. Eastern front-it had partisans, bicycle troops, cav, etc as well. there must have been 10,000 counters in that game. I mean it was massive. I thought of this when you mentioned D-Day-it may have been made by the same company. Idon't remember, that was a long time ago.
BigER posted 11-16-98 12:02 PM ET
Opps, jsorense I misspelled your name, sorry.
DJ RRebel posted 12-19-98 06:30 AM ET
DAT >>> But in a true turn based game, there is no rushed time factor !!! So all those limitations are non-existant in Civ type games !!!
As for good AI, I was refering to the type where the leader of another faction can answer you in detail when you ask a question, basically, give you a "human-like" response !!! That my friend, is at least 20 years away, if not 50 !!! The amount of program code required to make adaptable algorithms to respond to conversation in a military-political-economic environment like SMAC would be nothing short of mindboggling !!!
BigE >>> How did your units get over the net ???
DJ RRebel posted 12-19-98 07:18 AM ET
BigE >>> I meant the Ping-Pong net, and not the Internet !!!
Just thought I'd mention that, just in case !!!
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Author	Topic: What segment of SMAC are you looking forward to most
BigER	posted 11-13-98 12:08 PM ET Kind of a long Title. Sorry. Anyway, the thing I am looking forward to most is the Technology tree. Will it be editable, will the technology be cool, what will the pictures be like(will there be pictures) I just loved the tech tree in Civ. I know there will be so much to absorb. But this will definetly be my favourite.
Roland	posted 11-13-98 12:17 PM ET Which aspects ? ALL! Most of all: Edible costume factions (so much for weird typos or bad english). Yes, faction customizing is what I want!
DJ RRebel	posted 11-13-98 01:05 PM ET yups ... The tech tree was a powerful weapon if you could defend your reseach well enough and had alot of those blue beakers !!!
jsorense	posted 11-13-98 01:36 PM ET Since I do not plan to play much multiplayer, I am looking forward to the AI. How will it emulate the military/diplomatic characteristics of the different Factions?
CClark	posted 11-13-98 01:36 PM ET Personally, I'm looking forward to the diplomacy, if they really expand on it from previous games in the genre. MOO2 had more diplomacy than MOO. CivII had more than Civ (I'm assuming, heretical as it is, I haven't played CivII). So I'm hoping that the scope and number of options in SMAC beats everything else out there. Apart from that, I'm looking forward to the Special Projects. I always found the Wonders of the World in Civ to be cool and I'm hoping that the Special Projects are along the same lines.
DJ RRebel	posted 11-13-98 01:47 PM ET CC .. go play CIV2 ... it rocks !!! Diplomacy will be what you want in multiplay, now that we can communicate with each other freely !!! That's one option in Civ2 I didn't like >>> The fact that you only had a couple of choices, and sometimes certain options didn't come up when you wanted them to !!!
MikeH II	posted 11-13-98 01:57 PM ET I've got to admit I prefered Civ, mainly because you could win by fighting more easily. Overall I have played Civ II more though probably.
DAT	posted 11-13-98 03:07 PM ET What I'm most looking forward to is getting lost in the game, totally losing track of the day and time. Since I have never played a multiplayer game, I will also be very interested in how well the AI gives the illusion of actual players representing the other factions. Will it adapt to my strategies?
jfrazier	posted 11-13-98 04:41 PM ET diplomacy seems to be my interest. I have never been much with economics or technology, I know they are important. I like trade, alliances, diplomacy. One thing I tried to ask Firaxis was whether or not the AI would allow us to ally with an opponent for joint operations??? Could you imagine playing a CIv II game as some civilization and planning a joint attack on some other civilization??? I am definatly looking forward to the diplomacy. The politics could be very interesting as well. I have a sneaky feeling SMAC is about to go where no game has gone before as we turn into the last year of the century! Jeff Ceasar of the Stars
outlyr242 the rebirth	posted 11-13-98 04:43 PM ET Diplomacy and game-time customizable units. I think these aspects will make each time thropugh a more unique expierence.
jfrazier	posted 11-13-98 04:44 PM ET BigER: wouldn't it be neat if SMAC had a more advance form of "meeting the council" something similar to Civ II??? Especially if you could actively interact with there suggestions??? THAT WOULD BE COOL! Jeff Ceasar of the Stars
CClark	posted 11-13-98 04:49 PM ET O242, I forgot about the desingable units. That was one of my favorite things in MOO2. Ranks up with the diplomacy as far as things I'm looking forward to. Also, the native lifeforms. I'm hoping that there are more than just the mind worms. If there were a dozen or so, that would be really interesting.
BigER	posted 11-13-98 06:01 PM ET jfrazier you bring up some interesting points, Diplomacy in SMAC could be ground breaking. I remember a game that came out in the 70's called Diplomacy. It was played on a board with a map of the world(somewhat modified) and where the pieces where small blocks. You had two kinds short blocks and long blocks the long ones being the navies. Anyway the game was played in turns and you wrote orders for your armies, then all the orders were resolved at once. If their was a conflict moving into a country the armies bounced back. The really neat thing about this game was of course the diplomacy. You could get other armies to support your army (or navy) into a country(or water area). You could get other people to support you into these areas as well. So, the whole game centered around talking to other players and trying to get them to help you in your war effort. A pretty cool game really. It's only drawback was it's strengh. Multi player is what made it and also destoried it. Friends stabbing friends in the back, people ganging up on each other, etc. Anyway my point is if you could add a diplomacy aspect to the game, you could have something very unique.
jfrazier	posted 11-13-98 06:26 PM ET BigER: I remember that game. As a matter of fact, I recall some other old Avelone Hill games that are now coming out in CD form (although I am not sure they are as fun, but could have been made better). Remember that board game France 1940, where you had to play the Axis in trying to invade France within a certain amount of time? Also, Risk, and now, Axis & Allies is out with a CD game. I wonder if it is any good??? I read the Gamespot review on it and it sounded somewhat tempting. Diplomacy could be a great draw for the loner player like myself. I happen to live in an area where people don't have much interest in true strategy games. If that council in Civ II could be enhanced in SMAC, wow!! whatch out. Could be fun. Also, I would like to be able to change my leader DURING A GAME. The thought of the old leader being deposed when the govt revolts or possibly being assasinated is appealing. What do you think? Jeff Ceasar of the Stars
The Thomas A Stobie	posted 11-13-98 06:29 PM ET I am looking forward to the multi-player play among good players. I wanted this in the original Civ I & Civ II, and look forward to see how Brian implements in SMAC. Multi-player allows strategies to be born against an opponent that will react to them as opposed to an AI which has limited responses to what you do.
BigER	posted 11-13-98 06:37 PM ET jfrazier I do indeed remember France 1940 and Risk and Axis and Allies. Although I hear the computer version is buggy-verify that there are patches out for it before you invest your dollars. Yes those were the days. How about Third Reich, Global War, Junta, Panzer faust, Eastern front,Barbarosa, etc.. Man those bring back memories Oh I almost forgot "The creature that ate Shaboygan" (sp)
BigER	posted 11-13-98 06:41 PM ET What else did you bring up... Oh yes, Diplomacy in SMAC-for multiplay-it's a must. Although I must confess I prefer single player mode. I've had too many bad experiences playing on line. People tend to drop off when they start to lose! That sucks, you can really only be assured of playing a game all the way through if you are losing.
jfrazier	posted 11-13-98 06:59 PM ET BigER: That is what I hate most about multiplayer online. I like a good AI. THe more versatile the AI, the more fun. I remember Barbarossa very well. One of my favorite games. I remember buying, at the time it was expensive, D-Day. That was a eight board game, took up half a living room! I mean, that game had all the units broken down into bicycle patallions, etc. A very interesting game. I remember when the games with large map sheets came out. World War II had the Japanese side of the war and included the conflict in China. Big map sheet with a game called Russia, 1942 inwhich you tried establish a renewed offensive into southern Russia. It had all the detailed units and generals. That brings up another detail I would like SMAC to think about, and I have approached them: What about pieced identified as the leader? I mean, Napoleon had the Grande Armee and a special Guard? Stalin, Hitler, all the leaders of noteriety, had special units for protection. I can certainly see Santiago and Yang having special forces. Another game I really enjoyed, and actually played just a year ago was Napoleon. Remember, all the major countries could be played on this two piece board game! Had all the generals in the conflict illustrated. I had a blast playing the Russian Campaign and using the Cossacks. Hey....maybe that is how to beat Santiago! Slow, frustrating, hit and run tactics, kind of like the Spainish did to Napoleon>>>..
Eric HalfBee	posted 11-13-98 07:02 PM ET The diplomacy and the indigenous life forms should be interesting. However, the main thing I am looking forward to is the transcendence aspect. SMAC is the only computer game that I have seen that asks the philosophical question, what will we become? Are we condemned to remain savages, waging wars, using money etc. Or are we capable of becoming more. Playing SMAC should be like reading a good science fiction novel. One that makes you think about who we are, and who we are becoming.
Spoe	posted 11-13-98 07:05 PM ET For a quick game, I always liked Steve Jackson's Ogre series.
DHE_X2	posted 11-13-98 11:51 PM ET Strategems that the AI uses. I hate it when I can figure out exactly how to beat an AI in half an hour. It really sucks, and I want a challenge, damnit! Also, the Multiplayer, and playing against some good strategists. Ought to be fun.
DCA	posted 11-14-98 11:20 AM ET Well, what I'm really hoping for is basically bigger-better-more Civ II, but with lots of diplomacy (& trade & intelligence etc) and some real military strategy (of which there is too little in the Civs, making the conquest approach sort of boring). The unit customization thingie should help. Also, I'd like to deploy forces in defensive positions all over my nation, actually defending the entire territory. This isn't really possible in Civ, as it requires excessive amounts of units and isn't worth it anyway (easier to just store a unit or two in the city, and then send it out to kill whoever's approaching). DCA, Here come the bells
DJ RRebel	posted 11-14-98 11:34 AM ET DAT ... I'm sure SMAC will be even more addicting than the Civs ... forget not knowing the date and time ... you're going to forget the month and year too !!! As for the AI, don't get your hopes up too high .. even if the AI of this game will probably be the most advanced any of us will have seen to date, the complexity of programming it would take to make a truly human AI won't exist for at least another 10-20 years (more or less) ... I was dissapointed a bit in Civ2, when I realised (with the help of my spies) that my opponents weren't playing with the same rules as I was ... (the AI took alot of shortcut !!!) ... I realised that cities were much bigger then what they should have been, and that they supported way too many units than they should have !!!! So that said, the AI will be challenging, but it still won't be comparable to a human opponant !!!! That's imposible at this stage ... the algoriths of a human mind at battle are just too complex to program at this stage, so they have to comprimize by letting the AI cheat a bit to give you a challenge !!! This isn't a bad thing in any way, it just makes it a little wierd a hard to predict simply because the AI sometimes doesn't do the most efficient things for itself !!!
DJ RRebel	posted 11-14-98 11:40 AM ET Jeff >>> Diplomacy will be far more advanced in this game than any other, but again, don't expect it to be drasticly different than in CIV2 !!! (with the exception of SMAC multiplay) !!! I remember that in Civ2, there was an option where you could trade world maps with other civs, I never got anyone to exchange with me ever ... even when I had discovered 75% of the world and the other civ only discovered about 10% maybe, more than half of which I had already discovered myself !!! Where was the advantage for the AI in that decision ??? Don't get me wrong though, SMAC diplomacy will be ahead of anything we've seen to date, but don't expect the AI to start planning in detail attack with you against another faction !!!
DJ RRebel	posted 11-14-98 11:45 AM ET Outlyr ... what's a thropugh ??? Jeff >> I'm sure SMAC will have its own advisors in this game, and I'm sure they will be more interactive than anything else we've seen, but again, (seems I keep going back to this point) keep in mind 1998 limits in technoligy, we won't be having a normal conversation with any of the advisors .. we should be able to ask them several pre-set questions though !!! (That is more than reasonably easy to do)
DJ RRebel	posted 11-14-98 11:54 AM ET CClark >>> Actually, the native life forms are one of the things I'm not looking forward to !!! It's one thing if you can only use them to your advantage, but if they start attacking you, then it becomes an uneven factor between you and the other factions !!! SMAC to me is about the race between 7 factions towards global dominance ... it's one thing for one of those faction to get in your way, that's expected, but if a native life form wipes out one or two of your first unit you build, you will be at a massive disadvange throughout the whole game, forced to play catchup with everyone else because of a random occurance !!! BIGE >> You bring up a few good points with that Diplomacy game .. I wonder if people will to each game as a new start, or if we'll carry our grudges over with a particular person from game to game !!! I'm thinking that probably most people will have the fresh start approach at first, but if you have the same guy kick your butt 3 games in a row, that you'll start being not so diplomatic with him at the start of new games !!!
DJ RRebel	posted 11-14-98 12:09 PM ET Jeff >>> Your reference to Risk is a good point, all Civ and SMAC like game have their origins from the board game Risk whether people admit it or not ... that was one good game for its time .. looking back, it's patheticly weak compared to anything on the computer, but the priciples of Civ games all have root in RISK !!! TAS >>> You are completely right, playing with someone else in multi will change the face of the game 10000000% ... there will be no comparison between a AI game and a multi-game ... in fact, I think it's almost safe to say that there will be two type of SMAC shipping in January !!! Did anyone play Theater Europe on the C-64 ??? I remember really liking that one, but not having any launch codes, so I would always get flattened halfway through the game !!! Does anyone have the manual to this game still ??? I really would have liked to play that with the nuke codes !! Jeff >>> I like your idea of having a leader... could also be used as a unit against civil unrest !!! EricB, DCA & DHE ... I agree with your points 100% !!!
DAT	posted 11-14-98 04:53 PM ET DJ RRebel... I would rather have the game AI cheat as it did in Civ 2 (including a production build with "margins" for faster builds) than has been implemented in many of the RTS games. Take AoE or StarCraft, for example. It was designed into those game that the speed of the computer, and the ability of the AI to make decisions faster, and redirect units far more efficiently than a human player would be part of the AI's advantage in the game. Even the absence of a build queue in AoE was designed so that you would have to make time-critical choices. Do I micromanage this battler (or that battle, or the one over there) or do I return to my base camp and manage additional unit builds, upgrades, and so forth. A very long-winded way of saying that I trust Sid and Brian implicitly with regarding to the AI "cheating" and look forward to a very immersive (I know it's overused, but that's just because so many other games want the reputation that SM games have received) experience. My wife and kids are even aware that when SMAC ships I will be "gone" for awhile! One last thought--I think your estimate of 20 years to human-like AI is far too long with regard to multiplayer gaming. I've seen some good examples, and heard of others that are on the way.
Jimmy	posted 11-14-98 10:37 PM ET I am looking to everything in SMAC. But if I had to chose, I would say that I am most looking to the diplomacy and specifically the Planetary Council. In the preview, it says that you not just elect a planetary governor but that you can win the whole game but getting the 3/4 th votes and being elected governor of AC. This will let diplomatic player win the game.
DHE_X2	posted 11-15-98 03:03 AM ET What, are there three ways of winning now? Transcendence, conquest, and 3/4 vote?
BigER	posted 11-16-98 12:01 PM ET DJ RRebel yes, there will be grudge games and I will be looking for YOU! OK OK I'm just kidding. I never let personal feelings interfear with playing smart. I've played tabletop games far too long person to person to let player physcology disrupt my strategies. Anyway, multi play for me will be seldom if ever. I'm always on the road. Jsorenson. There was another game I used to play that took up a whole pingpong table in my basement-it took five guys playing twice a week a month and a half to finish. Eastern front-it had partisans, bicycle troops, cav, etc as well. there must have been 10,000 counters in that game. I mean it was massive. I thought of this when you mentioned D-Day-it may have been made by the same company. Idon't remember, that was a long time ago.
BigER	posted 11-16-98 12:02 PM ET Opps, jsorense I misspelled your name, sorry.
DJ RRebel	posted 12-19-98 06:30 AM ET DAT >>> But in a true turn based game, there is no rushed time factor !!! So all those limitations are non-existant in Civ type games !!! As for good AI, I was refering to the type where the leader of another faction can answer you in detail when you ask a question, basically, give you a "human-like" response !!! That my friend, is at least 20 years away, if not 50 !!! The amount of program code required to make adaptable algorithms to respond to conversation in a military-political-economic environment like SMAC would be nothing short of mindboggling !!! BigE >>> How did your units get over the net ???
DJ RRebel	posted 12-19-98 07:18 AM ET BigE >>> I meant the Ping-Pong net, and not the Internet !!! Just thought I'd mention that, just in case !!!