posted 11-08-98 07:33 PM ET        

"I also believe that this really isn't the place for such a thread. Already people have been put off by some of the opinions stated here, and if we keep this up, even more people will be sickened by some of the views, and put off these forums.

I honestly appeal to you all to stop such discussions as this, and the religious debate (and don't even get me started on the evils of organised religion). There are Newsgroups set up for such things. Hey, if you want, set up a mailing list, and email everyone.

Personally, I don't want more people alienated by these discussions, and this is only going to provoke strong reactions from both sides of the fence.

That this posting should be the first to make 100 posts is a sad message in itself, and personally, I believe that we shouldn't be encouraging it.

I'd actually like Firaxis to close the whole thread. In fact I might just start up a petition..."

So, this is my petition to stop the thread. Add your names below, and we'll see what we can see. Don't argue over it, don't start the whole thing again. Just add your name, and whether you agree or not...

posted 11-08-98 08:03 PM ET            

Well, I suppose so. Maybe I am trying to force this discussion closed.

What I am really trying to do is to move it elsewhere (like the newsgroups). It doesn't belong here, and is annoying people to the point that they're leaving the forums.

While I am a strong advocator of freedom of speech, there is a time and a place for everything. I don't think this is the place for this discussion. My belief, I know, and yes, I am trying to force it onto others. Danged paradoxes in life. lol...

Mouthshaft, I wasn't referring to your post about science. I was just using it in my argument.

All I'm really trying to do I suppose is appeal to everyone, that this discussion is annoying people left, right and centre. I don't argue anyone's right to hold it. I do question whether it is good to hold it here. That's all.

posted 11-08-98 08:43 PM ET            

"A good debate is healthy. If people are being scared away from a debate because they disagree with some of the things being said, I think that says more about those who are scared away than it does about the debate. About the only thing that was really inflammatory about the original thread was the title (and the fact that the lines wouldn't wrap nicely). I think we all benefit by understanding the perspective of the other side on this, and there is a possibility that somebody would actually change their minds because of the reasoning presented on either side."

posted 11-08-98 08:57 PM ET            

"I support everyone's right to having sex too (as long as they're above age, consenting adults, yada, yada, yada). Doesn't mean they can have it in the park in the middle of the day, no?

As I said, there's a time and a place for everything. I think this isn't the place. I also respect your right to disagree with me though, so if enough people do, then hey, who am I to argue?

Maybe you should start up a petition to keep it on there. State your case, and see what sort of response we get."

(Okay, maybe we just leave it all here. And hey, go ahead and argue, whatever was I thinking... )

posted 11-08-98 09:53 PM ET            

Bring it on...

//Ced
(ducks behind a nearby counter, awaiting the onslaugth)

posted 11-08-98 11:52 PM ET            

I don't think the thread started on a good note, but I think all involved stand to gain for hearing opposing view points .. I understand that it may not be the best place for the discussion, but it did start here and I hope we can continue the discussion in a proper educational way .. the debate has been very rational and polite considering the topic !!!

SMAC has yet to be released, therefore it's safe to assume the topics of discussion will continue to waver off topic on a regular basis until the demo is released !!!

I will personally try not to offend anyone, but to end the topic outright seems a little extreme .. you are welcome to not participate .. I think judging from the outcome of the poll so far my point of view is supported more !!!

I understand that your intentions are good .. I won't go screeming freedom of speech ... cause that's not your point !!!

If you get an overwelming vote to stop discussing it, I'd stop posting those threads, but I don't think that'll happen .. besides, I'm sure the thread will burn out soon enough !!!

posted 11-09-98 12:02 AM ET            

We SMACers are a family. I personally have supported Firaxis from day, well, month one. I was one of the first people to post on their forums well over a year before Gettysburg came out and I can't recall any thread being shut down. I too think that we can handle it thus I oppose the motion. I don't know exactly how to spell this, but my vote is NEH! (-8

posted 11-09-98 02:40 AM ET            

I thought it was insane too until I took the time to actually investigate for myself !!!

As for those threads that were shut down, that was caused by those pesky nexii !!

And who are these people we've been turning off anyways ??? The only 2 people that I know of who have left were Zanny and YYYH ... and they've both been back since, so I guess they weren't all that offended !!!

Oh yeah .. there was someone else who left because his parents thought he would do better in school if he didn't have the internet !!! But that's it !!!

You guys are way oer reacting !!! If anything the forum has grown !!!

In the first week .. (not even a full week yet) .. of this new forum, we've almost hit 15% of the number of posts that the all the old forums had combined .. so your arguments are completely unfounded !!!

I think that because of the level of intellectual stimulation in here we have more participation !!! For every one person who gets scared off, we have 10 who join !!! ( If we even really did lose anyone)

I mean look at BG .. he still actually posted in the abortion & religion thread after he started this thread .. how can we posibly take this thread seriously ???

I think that by trying to suppress it, you're actually drawing more attention to it !!! You're shooting yourself in the foot for something you don't even wholeheartedly believe in !!! lol

If you don't want to discuss global issues, don't ... that's your perogative !!!

I don't think anyone has actually been offended here ... granted there were maybe 2 or 3 posts out of the 140 posts so far that went over the line, but that could also be said about any other thread !!!

I think the people who should have been offended the most were actually the ones who participated the most !!!

I so blatantly think Larry is wrong, but I grow as a human being by being able to understand his point of view !!! He presented his case well and intellegently, and for that I am thankful !!! (Thanks Larry ) .. and I am a better person for it, as is he probably !!!

SMAC is a game where politics and diplomacy will be in abundance, if you can't take the issues in this forum how could you possibly hope to survive the oppressive view of a spartan (or whatever faction you hate) faction in the deplomacy meeting to be held once a year on SMAC ???

I would wholy agree with you if this were a Barney forum or something like that ... but it's not ... it's a forum for a politically based game .. therefore it should come as no surprise that political views are discussed !!!

I truly think we're all better off for it, but if you don't, you're welcome to feel that way !!!

posted 11-09-98 07:40 PM ET            

I'm not worried about the Forum growing, or the addition or reduction of people posting. I am worried about any people that may be mortally offended by some of the over the top posts. You may not be worried about individuals, but I am. If even one person is turned away, that's one person too many.

The needs of the individual above the needs of the many. One of the foundations of the American system, yes?

Yes, I am drawing more attention to it. EXACTLY what I wanted to do. If there's a crime, do you hush it up, or bring the injustice to people's attention? So, not shooting myself in the foot at all. You just don't understand me.

As for taking SMAC in it's entirity, and ANY topic being relevant: why do you think Sid left slavery out of Colonisation? Because it is not political to have it in. I sure as hell guarentee abortion won't be in SMAC. And thus it has no place in these forums.

Granted, 90%+ of topics are off-topic (so to speak), and I for one don't want them all closed. I just don't think that one of the most heated and controversial topics today has a place on this board.

As for anyone who can play the game being able to reason it out. What a crock. Children 8 years and up (possibly younger for all I know) have been able to play it, connect to the internet, and read these forums. You want to subject an 8 year old to that trash? I don't. That should be up to the parents, not you or me.

Thus my (seemingly vain) attempt to get that BS off these forums. And yes, I did continue to post, and will continue to do so until they are removed (though they seemingly won't be). To contradict some of the BS people are posting there. To get a contrary point of view accross. To combat the "holier than thou" attitudes of some who would force their poinions on us.

In short, a battle worth fighting, no matter the fact I think it is repulsive. True soldiers do not shirk from the heat of battle. Hmm, sounds a little pompous, doesn't it?

HOWEVER, it seems that quite a few people don't agree with me. Seems to be roughly split down the middle (though I am not pedantic enough to count exact numbers), so maybe we shouldn't close them down.

However, I still believe in the needs of the few before the wants of the many, and I still think children should be shielded from this stuff. What of the parent who downloads software to keep their child from such trash, only for their child to find it in a supposedly "safe" games forum. Is there anywhere safe?

But, unless the silent masses suddenly rise up and agree with me, I can't see it happening. Maybe not even then. My opinion is not necessarily right, as it is just that, an opinion. Everyone has the right to form their own opinion, and I encourage them to do so. Maybe I shouldn't be encouring the topics being closed. Maybe everyone has the right to post what they want, where they want.

But would everyone agree that some if someone came on, posting that "Hitler was right, just he didn't do a good enough job", would you all agree that that should be left there? (And believe you me, that view in no way expresses my beliefs, and my sincere appologies if that statement hurts anyone.)

And I place some of the comments in the abortion thread in the same context.

Anyway, I'll shut up now, I have said my piece. I think it is sad that some don't agree with me, but there you go, life wasn't made to be easy. Otherwise, we'd never even have such contentious debates.

posted 11-09-98 08:02 PM ET            

Now, I do not agree that the topics should be closed. I have not posted to, nor read from, the abortion threads because I am not interested in discussing that issue here.

If there is material that is personally offensive to you, the correct response is to email the webmaster (Mike Ely) and ask for the post to be removed/edited (I have done this). If enough people do that or Firaxis agrees that a particular post is offensive, then I am sure they will respond. Otherwise, please consider this a community with varying interests in a society with many issues worth discussing.

posted 11-09-98 08:11 PM ET            

What? I don't get 3 votes? Damn democracy...

posted 11-09-98 08:30 PM ET            

Anyway, this seems to me to more of an anarchy than a democracy. There is no majority rule; people talk about what they want. When Red Dog and Domk started being annoying in the old forums, all we could do was to state our opinion and hope they'd stop. They did - we don't need no moderators.

If anybody wants to praise Hitler (and, of course, make a complete moron of him/herself in the process), go ahead. I'll laugh at you, no problem. And, yes, leaving slavery out of Colonization was quite stupid. Hushing up our grim past doesn't make it go away.

posted 11-09-98 09:56 PM ET            

DCA: Slavery would really have no purpose in Colonization, well maybe trading purposes, but he left it out so he wouldn;t offend anyone. Everything you do, no matter how good or bad it is, is going to be opposed by someone. Just take the second to last Seinfeld episode for example(The Peurto Rican parade), Kramer accidently lit a Peurto Rican flag on fire, with his cigar, but put the flame out. Some PR's still got offended by it, & wasted the night of the fianl episode of Seinfeld protesting it from across the street. Pretty dumb IMO, but that's what you get, & some people would of surely hated Sid if he had add slaves.

I hate political correctness. Reminds me of the news program here scrutinizing a college coach(forget which University) for telling his players (& I quote.)"You played like a bunch of girls!!". The news said, it wasn;t only an insult to the boys, but to girls as well. I wanted to puke where I stood when I heard that, it angers me that some people have nothing better to do for society then yell at other people for not being perfect all the time. They're not perfect either, & I just wanna bag one of those over-protective mothers one day!!

People up in Mass are also pretty dumb, in a town somewhere up there, it's against the law to mow your lawn after 5PM!!! My God!! Who was stupid enough to dream that one up!! I know when I mow our lawn, I do it at atleast 7PM, no one in my family could do the lawn before 5PM, it would never get cut, & of course the town would give us a fine. I'm glad I live in CT sometimes, though the gas prices are outrageous.

Im done now, sorry people.

posted 11-09-98 10:32 PM ET            

I however ingore the that thead like the plauge.

posted 11-10-98 02:20 AM ET            

Thread Title: not merely offensive, but downright psychotic. I had to question what I was doing back here if this was going to be the standard of arguement. THIS GOES TOO FAR.

Lack of Relevance: abortion, slavery, fascism, genocide, etc, have no place in computer games, even on the scale of Civilization.

posted 11-10-98 08:37 AM ET            

Ruthless: No abortion, bigpopulation growth, but a lower health average.

posted 11-10-98 09:17 AM ET            

Religion is an endless debate and we all have our opinion.

Abortion might be big in America, but supprice supprice life outside exits and it's been proven Also in this issue e all have our opinion.

posted 11-10-98 11:22 AM ET            

Firstly, I'm Canadian and not American !!!

How do you feel about news flashes of president clinton that interupt shows that your children (just imagine you have some) are watching ??? Would you boycott the TV station ??? I think you're taking a bit of an extreme position .. I haven't seem anyone post that they were offended ... not even hint that they were !!!

You should see the trash 8 year old kids on the internet see !!! lol .. This is candy compared to some things they see !!! Honestly, if a parent is concerned, they souldn't let their kids on the internet at that age ... I don't have kids, so I don't know what kind of blocking technology exists, but I'm sure the parents could chose certain words to block out sites if they contain those words !!! (I'm assuning that's how it works) ..

And speaking of children 8 and up, I think they probably have the most to gain from listening to both sides of a good debate .. I know at the age of 8, I would have learned alot from this sort of debate !!!

As for your opinion, it is yours, and I respect your right to have it .. really .. but I don't agree with it ... although, I do agree with you that a line should be drawn somewhere .. you're right in that, I guess I'd put my line a little further out than you !!! That's all !!!

LOL .. just reading your hitler think now !!! I guess I saw it coming .. so again, yes there should be a line drawn, but who is it up to to define where it be drawn ??? (It funny that in trying to make your point, you posted the most offencive remark yet !!!)

Anyways, you should have seen some of the vulgarity on the fisrt day of this new forum .. I'm astonished you didn't say anything about people saying hctib (backwards) among other nasties !!!

CEO .. you make a good point .. there is a thread about homosexuality .. now to me, that's more ofencive to some than abortions ... and I haven't bothered looking in there as far as I remember .. it's just that simple .. besides, if kids want to find out about abortions, it much be super easy on the net .. and we aren't even talking about it in detail, we're expressing our view on the matter !!!

CEO .. you should take a look at the thread in question before you pass judgement on it .. I think your running to Mike Ely would have been the best thing to do if you had read for yourself the thread and found it offencive .. but how were you offended if you didn't read it ???

I thought I'd be offended too when I went in there, but I was surprised at the maturity of the posts .. on both sides !!!

YYYH ... I mentioned that you were one of the people who had left, but NOT because of the thread in question !!!

Shinning1 .. I agree with you that the firsat title: "people who think abortion doctors should be shot" was uncalled for, it wasn't me who named it that .. but that's why I renamed it "abortions and religion II", so people would have a good idea what was in it before they subject themselves to the actual subject matter !!!

Steel .. I think people could be more offended talking about God than abortion .. it's all a question of values and opinions, and everybodies are different !!! The fact that the vote in here is just about 50-50 just goes to prove my point !!! If the vote were 90% in favor of closing it, I would probably stop posting myself, but the fact is that it isn't .. in fact most, if not all the votes in favor of closing the thread were by people who actually weren't even offended and participated themselves ... they just thought the thread should have been closed because the thought other people MIGHT get offended !!!

YYYH ... excellent points !!!

JB .. I wouldn't have any objection to changing the title of the original !!! (Only the title)

TofGiT ... (I think, what does it stand for anyways ??) .. You bring up a good question and point .. but please bring it up in the abortion & religion thread !!!

Jeje ... we're not making you read anything !!! .. you read what you like by choice I hope !!!

posted 11-10-98 11:23 AM ET            

"Ruthless: No abortion, bigpopulation growth, but a lower health average.

Idealistic: Free abortion, fewer babies born, but all healthy and taken care of."

We can take care of the entire population of the planet now! The only reason why we don't is because no one in the states wants to give up their sporty SUV in order to feed the hungry. In other words, most people don't give a rats ass. Besides, we're already moving into NEGATIVE population growth in the Western World. Remember that 2.5 kids/couple? Well, axe the .5, we're down to 2. Japan and Europe are less than that. The only problems are in underdeveloped countries. The U.S. can handle a MUCH higher population. Sorry, that argument sinks like a lead balloon.

posted 11-10-98 01:32 PM ET            

Bad title: Yeh I will argee that does need to be change.

I have seen my threads closed before and it drove me to another site, where the people cause me to stop posting on the web.

I say it again I like debating with gammers, their my kind of people. Even if I will not debate that issue I don't what any censorship unless someone is being offence to another user, not for the disciosion of a offence topic.

posted 11-10-98 03:21 PM ET            

BG - I can see your point and I'm tempted to agree with you. On the other side, while there's nothing more worthwil to discuss, why not? Anyway - what's the point of a vote? If a majority of the people won't post, the thread will sooner or later die.

What is really ironic is that this suggestion turned into such a beautiful off-topic discussion. If we are allowed to discuss this, why not abortion? :-)

How about a new thread to discuss whether we should close threads that propose closing other threads? :-)

Dushan

posted 11-11-98 11:09 AM ET            

CEO ... I hope it wasn't anything I said !!!

Regardless .. I hope you confronted the person first !!! Actually, never mind .. I don't know what was said so I can't judge !!!