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Tolls posted 11-06-98 08:34 AM ET
I know I shouldn't do this, but I was so intrigued by Larry Boy's mention of many 12 foot fossils of men being found that I had to do a search on them. (This is leading on from the "potentially offensive topic" thread by the way)
I did a hunt on Kent Hovind, the creationist Larry mentioned, and found a mention of these 12 foot skeletons. Well, not quite. It turns out that Hovind, in his lectures, uses a "photo" of a discovery of an 11' 6" skeleton of a man from the mid-19th century. Only, this isn't a photo, it's a drawing. And neither Hovind, nor the person putting forward this idea most, Carl Baugh, can say for sure when and where this event occured...somewhere in Italy, sometime in the 1800s.
No search of any archives can find a source for this "photo", or the discovery, or any mention of 12 foot human fossils being found anywhere. Is this a conspiracy? Or is it simply a case of creationist misinformation?
Here's the Talk Origins page about the 12' fossil(s)...
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part2.html
I try and avoid using talk origins, but it's the easiest reference to find, and in this case the only one.
Silent Bob posted 11-06-98 03:46 PM ET
I've got to thank you for the website. I've been looking everywhere for any mention of the 12-foot skeletons and haven't had any luck. I couldn't find a thing which made it very difficult to reply to LB's statement.
The only comments I can make are the following:
1. I find it very difficult to believe that the entire community of archeologists would attempt to cover up a find as important as 12-foot skeletons just to support a theory regarding mans origin.
2. From what I understand about human and all animal growth, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, we all stop growing after a certain number of years. Many people tend to get shorter as they age due to lack of calcium and bone degeneration.
Larry Boy posted 11-07-98 02:23 AM ET
Thanks guys! There was some other info I read about it somewhere. You the man Tolls! Dr. Hovind has some information on the reason he believes people could grow that big in his 4th video. It has to do with double atmospheric pressure and some other factors. Sorry, gotta go. Thanks again! God Bless, Larry Boy
Kurn posted 11-07-98 05:33 AM ET
Thanks for the site Tolls!
Roland posted 11-09-98 05:26 AM ET
12 ft people and double atmospheric pressure ? Hmm... shouldn't that make for smaller people ?
Larry Boy, it's hard to tell whether you are cracking jokes or are serious about this...
Tolls posted 11-09-98 07:00 AM ET
Found some details of Dr Hovinds credentials...interesting stuff.
Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill [3].
Good, solid science credentials there.
Tolls posted 11-09-98 07:02 AM ET
[3] Steve Levikoff, Name It and Frame It? New Opportunities in Adult Education and How to Avoid Being Ripped Off by 'Christian' Degree Mills, 4th ed. (1995), available at <http://training.loyola.edu/cdld/nifi.html>, last accessed on June 24, 1998.
(Forgot the reference)
Zoetrope posted 11-09-98 08:43 AM ET
Since my primary school days in the 1960's I've heard rumors of giant hominids (manlike creatures) in the fossil record, with names such as Gigantopithecus, but not twelve feet tall, though maybe seven or eight?
Fossils of Homo Erectus average about 5 feet six or seven inches, so the average human being hasn't changed much in height for a million years, except when long years of malnutrition have stunted growth.
That however doesn't exclude the possibility
of exceptions, such as the eight or more
feet tall men that are alive today.
Also, the very tall hominids may be classified as a different species, unless it could be shown that they interbred with the more common size of hominid.
As for whether all animals stop growing after a certain age, no they don't all stop. Reptiles keep growing all the lives. Maybe stopping is a characteristic of mammals and birds?
Hmm, that's a puzzle, how can mammals and birds, with separate evolutionary pathways, both have growth restrictions, as well as warm blood, when their missing link, the reptiles, have neither?
Reminds me of the meaning of the word `evolution', which isn't what you probably think. Look up its derivation in the dictionary. It means the `turning out' of characteristics that were implicit in ancient ancestors.
Talking about family trees, did you know that we have about 70% of our genes in common with mosquitoes? What a difference a fraction makes!
Kind of makes you wonder just how different life on another planet, with zero percent of genes like ours, would look and behave? I suspect there are no hominids in other star systems, `science' fiction notwithstanding.
Tolls posted 11-09-98 09:00 AM ET
The question is did we separate from birds after we got warm blood or before?
Birds are probably descended from Dinosaurs...Thorapscids I think...I don't know about mammals off hand.
Tolls posted 11-09-98 09:07 AM ET
It looks like they've only found jaws of Gigantopithecus, from which they predict they could have been as much as 10 feet tall. It was, however, an ape rather than a homind, based on the jaw shape and teeth. This could all be changed, of course, if (when?) they find a more complete skull. The area in southern China where they were found is apparently quite good for fossils. Here's hoping. Every new fossil find helps shed some light on the past.
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Author	Topic: 12 foot people
Tolls	posted 11-06-98 08:34 AM ET I know I shouldn't do this, but I was so intrigued by Larry Boy's mention of many 12 foot fossils of men being found that I had to do a search on them. (This is leading on from the "potentially offensive topic" thread by the way) I did a hunt on Kent Hovind, the creationist Larry mentioned, and found a mention of these 12 foot skeletons. Well, not quite. It turns out that Hovind, in his lectures, uses a "photo" of a discovery of an 11' 6" skeleton of a man from the mid-19th century. Only, this isn't a photo, it's a drawing. And neither Hovind, nor the person putting forward this idea most, Carl Baugh, can say for sure when and where this event occured...somewhere in Italy, sometime in the 1800s. No search of any archives can find a source for this "photo", or the discovery, or any mention of 12 foot human fossils being found anywhere. Is this a conspiracy? Or is it simply a case of creationist misinformation? Here's the Talk Origins page about the 12' fossil(s)... http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part2.html I try and avoid using talk origins, but it's the easiest reference to find, and in this case the only one.
Silent Bob	posted 11-06-98 03:46 PM ET I've got to thank you for the website. I've been looking everywhere for any mention of the 12-foot skeletons and haven't had any luck. I couldn't find a thing which made it very difficult to reply to LB's statement. The only comments I can make are the following: 1. I find it very difficult to believe that the entire community of archeologists would attempt to cover up a find as important as 12-foot skeletons just to support a theory regarding mans origin. 2. From what I understand about human and all animal growth, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, we all stop growing after a certain number of years. Many people tend to get shorter as they age due to lack of calcium and bone degeneration.
Larry Boy	posted 11-07-98 02:23 AM ET Thanks guys! There was some other info I read about it somewhere. You the man Tolls! Dr. Hovind has some information on the reason he believes people could grow that big in his 4th video. It has to do with double atmospheric pressure and some other factors. Sorry, gotta go. Thanks again! God Bless, Larry Boy
Kurn	posted 11-07-98 05:33 AM ET Thanks for the site Tolls!
Roland	posted 11-09-98 05:26 AM ET 12 ft people and double atmospheric pressure ? Hmm... shouldn't that make for smaller people ? Larry Boy, it's hard to tell whether you are cracking jokes or are serious about this...
Tolls	posted 11-09-98 07:00 AM ET Found some details of Dr Hovinds credentials...interesting stuff. Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill [3]. Good, solid science credentials there.
Tolls	posted 11-09-98 07:02 AM ET [3] Steve Levikoff, Name It and Frame It? New Opportunities in Adult Education and How to Avoid Being Ripped Off by 'Christian' Degree Mills, 4th ed. (1995), available at <http://training.loyola.edu/cdld/nifi.html>, last accessed on June 24, 1998. (Forgot the reference)
Zoetrope	posted 11-09-98 08:43 AM ET Since my primary school days in the 1960's I've heard rumors of giant hominids (manlike creatures) in the fossil record, with names such as Gigantopithecus, but not twelve feet tall, though maybe seven or eight? Fossils of Homo Erectus average about 5 feet six or seven inches, so the average human being hasn't changed much in height for a million years, except when long years of malnutrition have stunted growth. That however doesn't exclude the possibility of exceptions, such as the eight or more feet tall men that are alive today. Also, the very tall hominids may be classified as a different species, unless it could be shown that they interbred with the more common size of hominid. As for whether all animals stop growing after a certain age, no they don't all stop. Reptiles keep growing all the lives. Maybe stopping is a characteristic of mammals and birds? Hmm, that's a puzzle, how can mammals and birds, with separate evolutionary pathways, both have growth restrictions, as well as warm blood, when their missing link, the reptiles, have neither? Reminds me of the meaning of the word `evolution', which isn't what you probably think. Look up its derivation in the dictionary. It means the `turning out' of characteristics that were implicit in ancient ancestors. Talking about family trees, did you know that we have about 70% of our genes in common with mosquitoes? What a difference a fraction makes! Kind of makes you wonder just how different life on another planet, with zero percent of genes like ours, would look and behave? I suspect there are no hominids in other star systems, `science' fiction notwithstanding.
Tolls	posted 11-09-98 09:00 AM ET The question is did we separate from birds after we got warm blood or before? Birds are probably descended from Dinosaurs...Thorapscids I think...I don't know about mammals off hand.
Tolls	posted 11-09-98 09:07 AM ET It looks like they've only found jaws of Gigantopithecus, from which they predict they could have been as much as 10 feet tall. It was, however, an ape rather than a homind, based on the jaw shape and teeth. This could all be changed, of course, if (when?) they find a more complete skull. The area in southern China where they were found is apparently quite good for fossils. Here's hoping. Every new fossil find helps shed some light on the past.