Does anyone really like the Believers?

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Author Topic:   Does anyone really like the Believers?

rtoledo7 posted 07-14-99 12:36 AM ET
Umm, from what I've seen, the Belivers seem to be a pretty useless faction. I don't know if its because I haven't ventured to play the game on a difficulty level higher than Talent, and I ussually play on a huge map. They take too long to build up their tech, so the other players take out your +25% attack advantage out with superior weaponry. From the limited experience I've had with the game, it seems its best to use UOP. Use Democracy and Free Market, with a pact with the Morganites, during building phases, and Police State when attacking, and you have no problem in dominating the flow of the game. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm new at this. Someone please give me some input.
Hamlet posted 07-14-99 05:53 AM ET
I haven't had much success playing as the Believers and I don't much like them anyway.
Miriam is just so irritating.
However, I believe that it can be done if you know how to play with her. Alas, I have not the expertise to win with the Believers.
I prefer to stick with my beloved Peacekeepers.
As I said in another post somewhere, the main problem with the Believers is this:
Believer Laser Squad vs UN Shard Marines
ooooh...they've got a 25% Belief bonus. Well...at least they'll die happy :-) R.I.P.
Walk with Lal ol'Boy
Rakeesh posted 07-14-99 08:36 AM ET
The believers are just a heaven's gate wannabe club. I really, truely hate them. They're the first think I try to kill... or at least get most of their bases. Right along with those spartans. The faction I created is called the 'Athenians' so.. its a little poetic.
5thbusiness posted 07-14-99 08:35 PM ET
I'm not proud of it, but my highest SMAC score (98%) is in a game playing the believers on a small planet. I built the
weather paradigm straight away, trippled my land mass, built solar collectors up the wazoo, traded tech with impunity and stayed on the offensive at all times; making treaties only with folks who were not in my line of fire or when I needed a breather. It was a blood bath (Diedre of all people landed a planet buster on me) and not the most cerebral game I've ever played, but it was fun.
I can understand people having their favorite factions, it's only natural that folks would develop preferences based on their own personalities and playing styles. I have a little more trouble understanding why people would bash one faction or another.
I have to say that part of the fun of this game, for me anyway, is stepping into character when playing a faction leader.
Miriam is an absolute riot when you get into character with her. Which other faction leader can you act totally belligerent with and pretend to be fighting the good fight? Yang is so nakedly agressive that you can't believably play him like that. Santiago is fun in a similar way to Miriam, because she's so paranoid that a stiff breeze from your direction is just cause for her to pronounce vendetta. But, Miriam's evangelical streak makes her (in my opinion)more dangerous and frankly more crazy than Santiago. I find that the leader you choose imposes more than just numeric/calculative parameters on the play, but more complex behavioral restrictions as well. For example: when I'm playing Lal, a leader I enjoy a great deal, I never use planet busters. It's not something a humanitarian would do. Miriam, on the other hand, could very easily plant a few craters in the name of the Lord if properly motivated.
So the short answer is no, I don't dislike Miriam or the Believers. Try playing her when your feeling cranky, indignant and superior, that will get you into the groove of the character. See if it makes a difference.
ZyXEL posted 07-15-99 02:23 AM ET
I don't play with Miriam, but try to make peace as soon I see her. Well, Miriam and Santiago should swich places: Santiago is a joke (noone beats my choppers ), and Miriam is worthy foe, especially when she's feeling 'high' and 'God is with her'.
Conclusion: don't let Miriam to live too long, she could make you sorry.

�oki
-UoP-
ZyXEL posted 07-15-99 02:26 AM ET
By the way:
Her weak tech is conpensated with her probe teams (until H/S Algorithm )
�oki
Misho posted 07-15-99 06:11 PM ET
I really hate that bitch sister Miriam.
I mean I can't never have peace with her.
She's always demanding huge money even when she desperatly loses.
She's really sick (like all phanathics) and I have to get rid of her at the first moment.
Once I loaned her about 700 credits, and she didn't return 'cos we went into war.
I hate the look of her bases, the are all like some gothic castles of the horror.
By the way, my highest score was 65 %.
That's pretty low, I know, but I didn't play much. Now I'll play more.
I usually play Gaians, I move easely in xenofungus areas.
5thbusiness posted 07-15-99 07:24 PM ET
The 98 was a fluke, total beginners luck. I've tried to match that score a number of times with factions much more in sync with my own style (Lal, the University) and never got closer than the mid 80's.
Hamlet posted 07-16-99 04:52 AM ET
5th Business: I'm impressed. Believers are to me the hardest faction to play with. I only seem able to play well with the PKs, with my highest score at 123% with transendence.
I love your 'personality' interpretation ...and I agree. It does enhance the gaming experience. I've had it for two weeks and already I'm hooked :-)
"And then all Hell broke loose"- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Neo Zakharov posted 07-17-99 01:10 PM ET
Heh... not really. Miriam always is breathing down my neck, and she refuses to be nice. And since I'm the University almost all the time, she always breaks treaties with me. A pact with her lasts aound 2 seconds, average. VERY irritating.
Anyway, her benefits stink, especially since she can't get new ones easily...
JayPegg posted 07-17-99 04:21 PM ET
What levels are you guys playing at? 98%? 65%? These are your highest scores? No insult intended, but these are rather low...
just wondering, don't feel insulted
~kelso
ps. then again I have being for 5 months now
5thbusiness posted 07-19-99 06:02 PM ET
No offense taken. I've had the game about as long as you have (4 months) but do not get to play very often, so I still consider myself a beginner. I know people are capable of much better scores than what I've done. I just find a little humor in the fact that my best score is with a nut case faction most people, based on this sample, venemously dislike.
JayPegg posted 07-20-99 09:44 AM ET
5th~
My high score is spartan transcend(?!), I just thought that was funny because people don't think to use them like that...
~kelso
remarking at how well 5th took that
ps. try the transcend build for high scores. Just build up your tech and military all through the game, and when your done with tech attack everybody. Hold off the transcend while you build up pop/tran thoughts. Easy score of 4000 there.
sandworm posted 07-20-99 01:41 PM ET
Zyxel's right, The believers probes rock and more than make up for the poor research. Just probe the techs out of your enemies, which will probably be everybody. Its more difficult to Transcend as the believers than other factions, but any of the other victory conditions are just as easily attainable.
Inix posted 07-20-99 02:45 PM ET
The coolest thing i can c with the belivers is thier probe abilities (if they have fundy they dont even need HSA!). U cant reaserch for squat but who cares u steal it from everyone else. Thier support lets u field large armies easily, i dont see them as being a poor faction gameplay wise. Perhaps taking all energy off labs and putting it all on econ with maby 10 or 20 psych would work. Then garrison your cities and launch a massive covert war agiants your most technologically advanced neighbores. Use stolen tech to attack Yang (your biggest threat usually) then Santiago, followed by the next strongest in line ect. Once the tech had been stolen, u could also use punishment spheres with impunity since all your tech would be coming from probe teams anyway. Not sure if this would work, and u would be behind untill u could start fielding probe teams, so fundy would have to wait untill they were aquired. However, i think orange is a simply grotesque color and cant stand looking at such an eye sore the entire game, so i am completely unable to play the Believers. Does anyone know what colors the various factions change to with that color palette change thingy? If the believers changed to a more tolerable color i would love to play them. As for people who hate the believers simply because they are bible thumpers or some similar reason, they dont have to be. U can use the custom name thingy to change them to whatever u want. Perhaps the these colonist were somehow changed apon thier arival on planet. They gained psychic powers and those with the strongest abilities rose to become the upper caste. A religion was then formed based on this with the populace beliveing that the gifts planet had bestowed appon them was a sign that it had chosen them as the rightfull inheritors of its bountifull fruits. This would be as good (perhaps better? critisism welcome) an explination of the factions benefits and penalties as the one the game gives. So u wouldnt feel like u were playing a bunch of annyoing Jehovahs Wittnesses. Just a thought. Oh god, another overly long post, sorry guys, had alot to say.
dilbert posted 07-20-99 03:46 PM ET
Miriam has to be played on the planet with large continents. Usually you can force up to 3 factions to surrender sometimes around 2150 this way. The lack of science certainly hampered Believers, but you can make it up by having twice the population and far more SPs than your next strongest opppoent. Also, you can afford to switch to Dem/Green/Wealth to continue your conquest oriented strategy. I played once with believer on a large planet and large continent, and everyone surrendered by 2254.
However, if you play Believers on a island planet, your situation is basically hopeless. Until you get doctrine flexibility, AI factions have far outresearched you.
BrandonQ posted 07-20-99 09:44 PM ET
Yeah; Miriam likes to play tough and try to keep you in one long perpetual war. I just deny her tribute, and when she finally gets tired of "dealing with me" I capture two or three of her bases and marvel at how quickly I become a "friend of God" again..
Of course, Deidre is even easier to intimidate. I didn't even have to attack her; just moved two of my impact rovers into her territory, and she's all for peace...
Heh; the "be peaceful, or I'll pound you into dust" approach.
5thbusiness posted 07-22-99 08:58 PM ET
J-peg
4000? (Yikes!) I've skimmed over the scoring formula in the context of this discussion and your method appears sound. I'm actually trying it in my current game. Will keep you apprised.
Excellence of Execution posted 07-23-99 04:03 AM ET
Facing Miriam can be a real pisser. Using fundamentalist politics NEVER do anything, and she will always declare war on you if you don't. She also builds colonies like crazy, so it becomes difficult to crush her. Throw in the immunity to probe teams and 25% attack bonus and she's damn hard to beat (yet very difficult to use). My advice is to hunt her down early and beat her into submission. Then all those votes (from rapid expansion) go to you. Or destroy them, that's fun too. Either way, never pledge blood truce or treaty because they will invariably break it and you've just given them time to build or rebuild their forces for vendetta. In short, hit them hard and don't let them recover.
Top_of_mind posted 07-23-99 05:56 AM ET
I think I speak for all of us when I say that she realy sucks! Her main disadvantage is the -2 science! Play the University and crush her at the beginig of the game. That'll be a piece of cake. NEVER have friendly conections with her (nor with Santiago and Yung). As soon as they'll build a good army (somehow, they manage to do it realy quick!), they'll betray. So, you better kick her (Santiago, and Yung, too) before it's too late for you (and belive me, it's gonna be late real soon!)
Paladinian posted 07-28-99 02:02 PM ET
Being a loyal Gaian, I do not play Believers much. But trust me, it is foolhardy to believe that the Believers are the worst faction!
The Believers are perhaps the most difficult to play, yes. A completely different strategy is required to use them effectively. But they are by far not the weakest when used by one who knows how.
The University, contrary to popular belief is actually the WEAKEST faction against the Believers. Think about it...what is the greatest weakness to UoP other then Drones? The poor probe teams. What is the Believer strength? Probe teams. The University will loose their massive tech advantage extremely quickly once the Believers enter into combat with them. Once the techs reach parity, the combat bonus will clean up.

"It's not easy being Green"
Kermit the Frog
GaryD posted 07-30-99 09:18 AM ET
I can believe that the University are the weakest. Perhaps it is the way I play, but I've only tried them once and found them a real pain. After all, what is the point of rushing to discover the new technology if you never seem to have the industry, or money, to build it with ? (Perhaps I should compensate more for the weaknesses, rather than play the strengths ?)
ZyXEL posted 08-02-99 08:25 AM ET
After weeks of playing I came to the conclusion: Miriam is a bitch, and my sacred mission is to make her suffer.
No more comment.
MajiK6pt5 posted 08-03-99 12:44 AM ET
hehehe...this thread is kinda funny...
Miriam is umm...well...rather annoying.
However, she is the strongest faction against me when I play, and she has actually defeated me several times (eek).
She is better than the Spartans or Yang because she has absolutely NO common sense, and attacks people as soon as she gets the upper hand. Always breaks treaties, especially after she gets tech to stop a war, then she just goes to war again (just like me!).
She expands like crazy, and then builds only military (she has no tech for anything else). With that 25% bonus, she is formidable once she gets enough land.
KaiyanWang posted 08-04-99 12:56 AM ET
I can't stand Miriam. She reminds me of someone who used to come bashing down my door at 6:30 in the morning with a big freakin' chip on their shoulder. She's the first thing I hunt down with my Hive Army. I kill with extreme prejudice. Heh heh, now I'M knocking on THEIR door.
As a proud Hive follower, my highest rating is %264 with trancsendence.
Dark_Jedi posted 08-11-99 04:42 PM ET
I just hate the Belivers, too, but I one time won with 88% and transcend, being the most advanced faction in science all time.
Zoetrope posted 08-16-99 05:23 AM ET
Against factions, you must be good at diplomacy; then you can get anyone on your side. But if you're used to puppies and kittens, then caring for snakes and tarantulas is going to take some adjustments.
One game at Thinker level, I was Zak at #1, Miriam was #2, Yang #3, Santiago #4. Yang and Santiago attacked Miriam, who called me (!) offering a pact. She kept it to game's end, when she still had a vast continent to herself (after I'd cleaned Yang out of it). I called a vote for Supreme Leader, and she voted for me. Yang voted against, but had no heart for a catastrophic war and acquiesced in the decision. Well, I didn't commit atrocities against any of the vermin, so he had no reason to fight to the death.
When I play as Miriam, I win very easily, even on a Huge world.
To make it more of a contest, I altered Alpha.txt so that armor is strong (silksteel is 10), weapons weak, bases give +100% defence, sensors another +100%, and terraforming improvements takes only one turn. I played on a small world, but it seemed large. It was hard to conquer a base packed with defenders (lost some Elite X-Chaos Rovers), but worth it as I had Spoils of War on.
But I built Hunter-Seeker, pacted with everyone (they're more likely to do that to pacify the Believers ), but Deirdre who was number 2 got jealous (though I was Green).
So I persuaded most of the others (including Lal!) to cancel the UN charter, so gradually the constant attacks from my probe teams and nerve gas hovertanks wore the Gaians down, and I won by vote.
I was originally a great fan of the University (as I teach electronic engineering at one) though Firaxis's questionnaire said I was more ideaologically suited to be a Gaian.
Now that I've played all the factions, I see that how the others treat you depends a lot on your own personality as reflected in how you negotiate, what you'll agree to, what you offer or demand, and your timing.
Takes practice, but you can learn to love every faction. As each of the factions (even Morgan) I've won all of my games at Thinker at chaos or at most shard level technology.
Actually, in that latest Believers game, I had to be way ahead in tech to win, so I built a large energy farm, set most of my citizens to be empaths and engineers, and raked in the dough from pacts.
As Demo/Green/Power/Cybernetic I was earning nearly 500 credits and gaining one or two techs per turn.
Called a Supreme Leader vote around 2224, which I won but Deirdre dissented apparently due to my use of Nerve Gas (she seemed to have her own private UN charter), so I had to spend 20 years capturing all of her bases, excruciatingly one by one, at great cost to my own troops.
Deirdre had built the Citizens Defence force, so her bases typically had +300% defence (base + perimeter + sensors); even units in the field (tough armor, uphill on rocky terrain, in bunkers, with sensors) were tough to take out, so eliminating the sensors before tackling a base was not immediately feasible.
Eventually I decided to use Missiles to eliminate the many tough defenders in major Gaian bases. (If the ECM Silksteel units didn't get my X-tanks, then the Worms would.)
Probe Teams were used for repeated Genetic Warfare against bases too expensive to buy: a size 2 base is a lot cheaper than a size 16, most of the wonders survive, and thanks to the Cloning Vats the captured bases soon recovered their population.
DilithiumDad posted 08-19-99 11:44 AM ET
The AI Miriam is pretty good. I recently played about 40 short games (20-50 turns) in the process of testing and refining The Ultimate Builder Map (based on Huge Map of Palnet). The UBM is a huge map specially designed for widely separated landing sites. I expected Miriam to do poorly, because she would have no one to attack. To my surprise, she can be a competent builder when left alone, even with no one to attack or extort/steal tech from.
I find the early game as Believers to be incredibly tedious on my pro-builder maps. All you can build for the first 30 turns or so are Scouts and Colony Pods! Zzzzzz.... You can build Rec Commons, but you won't need it because of the colony pods you are building for lack of anything better to do. It's such a relief to finally get your first tech (Centauri Ecology, definitely) so you can make formers.
Rakeesh posted 08-22-99 04:51 PM ET
I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Believers --- BLEH! Icky pooh! I swear.. Miriam has rabies.
I'm not sure why.. but lately I've been playing on the medium-high levels, and.. I don't even NEED to hunt down Miriam.. somebody else usually bops her off for me. (Usually the Hive, or Gaians... once both). I have to admit.. seeing the hive and deidre on the same side was VERY confusing. Wish I could have seen the whole thing.
I've NEVER seen Miriam last till even mid-game. Oh.. wait.. check that.. I kept her alive once because she had so much cash. (And with a bit of... *persuasion* was willing to share.)
I've even seen games where I got to probe-team her before she got all funky-fundy. That was funny.. I could just picture her reaction: "DAMN YOU ZAK! Stop STEALING my units!". Anyway, I've got the itch again, and I think I'll go see how long the believers last THIS time.
PawtheUnstuk posted 08-24-99 09:54 PM ET
Ifyou're playing on a huge map yeah, ppl get to devolp before combat starts. On a t iny map though it is an advantage.
They take a little mroe finesse than most factions, personally I would never play them but I don't play spartans very often either. I just don't like armies. IF you're militaristically inclined the believers are strong.
Alex
warg posted 08-25-99 03:46 AM ET
I call Mariam "The B*tch"
Rakeesh posted 08-25-99 05:55 PM ET
Militaristically inclined?.. That must be why I don't like them. Still.. I think Miriam has some sort of mental (or maybe hormonal?) :-) problem.
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