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Author Topic:   Sea Power

Combined Arms posted 08-17-99 08:18 AM ET
Sea power...in smac is very interesting. Is it worth having a large fleet of cap ship battleships...controlling all the waves of the world and blowing up enhancements when at war. Thats all nice, but it takes a long and hell of alot of resources to take over the seas.
Good uses of Sea Power
Early rushing a human player....destroying all his enhancements close enough to the shore. Most people put there main bases near water.
Having control of waters lets your transports and formers do what they please...unless patrolling air....annoying
Also having ships near enemys water....well u can annoy him....destroying tubes in vital areas...slowing the build up....even bombarding mind worms are affective taking almost half in one shot.
Bad things about trying to take the seas....
Humans build those ugly looking subs and worms that are naturally cloaked. Its very expensive and many times futile to claim the seas.
Humans can always reduce there ships but increase air power.....so you can't even go close to your enemy before a bomber on alert hits you.
Once the enemy gets grav.....they may not even need transports or anything...so no need to protect you. Many humans forget to build those nasty foils with SAM capablity to watch and kill those damn gravs. I choose foils because its easy to build. But i guess you guys have your on ideas.
A Few things i like to do with sea power
Make a transport with roughly
8 tanks
6 helocopters
2 needlejets (use these to block roads with there only sam can attack ability)
(You have to make it a carrier)
This force can take out small islands by its self or aleast make a bridgehead, untill you psi gate or transport more over. Yes, i know you think having so much production in these things and having multi-ones all over the world is risky. First make it a carrier-sub and hide in funges untill use....also on the tanks...and other units...use clean reacters...and blink...there not as good as some other tanks, but think of them as marines. Quick strike force, which will make the comp make peace by the time your done...and something a human would hate and not expect so early in a war. Also don't forget to put multiple units under the ship. I don't think sea units die in a group ...maybe just catatorial....sorry can't spell....well i guess right with your thoughts or if i lost my mind.
Plato90s posted 08-17-99 11:47 AM ET
Sea power is very important. Once you kick all your neighbors off your continent, a strong navy can reduce your need for a strong land army until you are ready to take over the world.
The way to start is to build a fair number of early cruisers. I usually build about a dozen or so cruisers when I'm still using Chaos weapons, and just upgrade them as the technology goes along. Sometimes I'll pump out more cruisers in the end game, but usually the first batch will get me through the game.
First, with AAA capability, you can make it expensive for the enemy to come after you with Needlejets. You'll get a 1:1 ratio with best weapon vs. best armor, so that's a fairly even trade.
Second, once you dominate the seas, you can bombard their road network to hamper progress and redeployment.
ViVicdi posted 08-17-99 12:36 PM ET
"Amphibious" is a nice touch. You get a bunch of expendable marines w/ best weap, no armor, Amphibious, and load 'em on a Cruiser Transport. (If you have multiple Trn's, even better.)
A shipload of Marines gets the job done, especially if you've got the Naval Command Thingy because you can poise your Trn at maximum distance from your opponent minimizing the chance of being sunk.
I also like the Carrier Trn -- especially since it ALSO carries ground units. Forget the stealth of a Pressure Hull -- with Carrier / Repair Bay and you've got a portable army.
In the early game armored transport foils are good for pod popping, because they are more resistant to isles of the deep. You can also upgrade the crippled Unity Foil, a critical early-game advantage.
Warships are okay in the early game, but I don't like the kill ratios I get with them (even 2-1 is no good if at war w/ more than 1 faction.) A chopper can sink ships w/o exposing itself to risk; a warship cannot.
Thus, before air, warships are kind of a necessary evil. You can build cheaper poorly-armed but heavily-armored screening ships to protect your warships, but escorts aren't really cheap enough for that strategy to pay off too well. It's sort of like the paradox of using an expensive high-tech fuse to protect a transistor that is only a little more expensive than the fuse protecting it.
Lastly, the Drop ability makes the use of sea power optional for conducting land operations. With only two Drop Transports you can keep those defensive non-drop units (Clean Police Rovers & Clean Super Formers) moving forward to support the Drop Infantry's gains -- all without a "drop" of sea power.
fsjjs1 posted 08-17-99 03:36 PM ET
The main problem I've noticed with Sea Power is that no matter how powerful your capital ships are, it almost always comes down to who get thier battleship to attack first. so a enemy ship with lesser Armor and lesser weaponry, that wouldn't stand a chance if I attacked it, can hide bases and shoot out to sink your best ship before you know its there.
Natguy posted 08-17-99 08:29 PM ET
Well, you could just send the ships out in pairs, so when one is destroyed its parter can avenge its death.
Another benefit of a strong navy is for protecting your seabases and taking those of the enemy (seeing as the AI, especially Believers, love seabases)
That and it's just so cool to rule the seas. Look what it did for the British.
Sun_Tzu posted 08-18-99 06:24 PM ET
Usually I only build a few Destroyers (Foils in early game) to patrol the seas and, when I am in a war, to keep an enemy bottled up (bombardment of those pesky Sensors is nice too, hehe). However, for sea control I always use carriers. Better range, tons more firepower, and a larger area of control. The bad part is that if a carrier gets sunk, you lose all those nice Shard Copters =). However, I have found a good way to keep my carriers from being sunk. After the carrier finishes its last move, I send out all my Shard Copters to patrol the area. They can't go very far, but most of the time the enemy ships "stumble" on my fleet, so they are ususally close by. I have kept three of my aging Plasma Carriers from being destroyed this way. Now that I think about it, maybe I could keep one or two "Patrol Needlejets" on the carrier for increased range... Nah, it's probably not worth the extra production cost, hehe.
Combined Arms posted 08-18-99 06:37 PM ET
You do that every turn....damn..that gets annoying..well i also see that you really don't play alot of humans...no offence meant. Its a good idea though....to bad those missiles you can't block with orbital defence pods
Sun_Tzu posted 08-18-99 08:38 PM ET
Don't play a lot of humans? Where are you getting that from?
Combined Arms posted 08-19-99 09:26 AM ET
Well what i meant was this.....
every turn i send a 2 or 3 needlejets(depending how much ocean) out to patrol ....with deep radar they can usually spot anyone even cloaked or hiding in fungis by the time there done with there sweep. To not bother with my ships dieing, i just send aleast 3 missiles, which is usually more than needed. I'm sorry about saying you don't play humans....i just thought patroling and missile using for anti-ship duties were common place between humans. Sorry ......although your tatic of using your air protection is nice on the wide oceans away from "most" patroling aircraft. Its also a good job to quickly eliminate an enemies sea
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Author	Topic: Sea Power
Combined Arms	posted 08-17-99 08:18 AM ET Sea power...in smac is very interesting. Is it worth having a large fleet of cap ship battleships...controlling all the waves of the world and blowing up enhancements when at war. Thats all nice, but it takes a long and hell of alot of resources to take over the seas. Good uses of Sea Power Early rushing a human player....destroying all his enhancements close enough to the shore. Most people put there main bases near water. Having control of waters lets your transports and formers do what they please...unless patrolling air....annoying Also having ships near enemys water....well u can annoy him....destroying tubes in vital areas...slowing the build up....even bombarding mind worms are affective taking almost half in one shot. Bad things about trying to take the seas.... Humans build those ugly looking subs and worms that are naturally cloaked. Its very expensive and many times futile to claim the seas. Humans can always reduce there ships but increase air power.....so you can't even go close to your enemy before a bomber on alert hits you. Once the enemy gets grav.....they may not even need transports or anything...so no need to protect you. Many humans forget to build those nasty foils with SAM capablity to watch and kill those damn gravs. I choose foils because its easy to build. But i guess you guys have your on ideas. A Few things i like to do with sea power Make a transport with roughly 8 tanks 6 helocopters 2 needlejets (use these to block roads with there only sam can attack ability) (You have to make it a carrier) This force can take out small islands by its self or aleast make a bridgehead, untill you psi gate or transport more over. Yes, i know you think having so much production in these things and having multi-ones all over the world is risky. First make it a carrier-sub and hide in funges untill use....also on the tanks...and other units...use clean reacters...and blink...there not as good as some other tanks, but think of them as marines. Quick strike force, which will make the comp make peace by the time your done...and something a human would hate and not expect so early in a war. Also don't forget to put multiple units under the ship. I don't think sea units die in a group ...maybe just catatorial....sorry can't spell....well i guess right with your thoughts or if i lost my mind.
Plato90s	posted 08-17-99 11:47 AM ET Sea power is very important. Once you kick all your neighbors off your continent, a strong navy can reduce your need for a strong land army until you are ready to take over the world. The way to start is to build a fair number of early cruisers. I usually build about a dozen or so cruisers when I'm still using Chaos weapons, and just upgrade them as the technology goes along. Sometimes I'll pump out more cruisers in the end game, but usually the first batch will get me through the game. First, with AAA capability, you can make it expensive for the enemy to come after you with Needlejets. You'll get a 1:1 ratio with best weapon vs. best armor, so that's a fairly even trade. Second, once you dominate the seas, you can bombard their road network to hamper progress and redeployment.
ViVicdi	posted 08-17-99 12:36 PM ET "Amphibious" is a nice touch. You get a bunch of expendable marines w/ best weap, no armor, Amphibious, and load 'em on a Cruiser Transport. (If you have multiple Trn's, even better.) A shipload of Marines gets the job done, especially if you've got the Naval Command Thingy because you can poise your Trn at maximum distance from your opponent minimizing the chance of being sunk. I also like the Carrier Trn -- especially since it ALSO carries ground units. Forget the stealth of a Pressure Hull -- with Carrier / Repair Bay and you've got a portable army. In the early game armored transport foils are good for pod popping, because they are more resistant to isles of the deep. You can also upgrade the crippled Unity Foil, a critical early-game advantage. Warships are okay in the early game, but I don't like the kill ratios I get with them (even 2-1 is no good if at war w/ more than 1 faction.) A chopper can sink ships w/o exposing itself to risk; a warship cannot. Thus, before air, warships are kind of a necessary evil. You can build cheaper poorly-armed but heavily-armored screening ships to protect your warships, but escorts aren't really cheap enough for that strategy to pay off too well. It's sort of like the paradox of using an expensive high-tech fuse to protect a transistor that is only a little more expensive than the fuse protecting it. Lastly, the Drop ability makes the use of sea power optional for conducting land operations. With only two Drop Transports you can keep those defensive non-drop units (Clean Police Rovers & Clean Super Formers) moving forward to support the Drop Infantry's gains -- all without a "drop" of sea power.
fsjjs1	posted 08-17-99 03:36 PM ET The main problem I've noticed with Sea Power is that no matter how powerful your capital ships are, it almost always comes down to who get thier battleship to attack first. so a enemy ship with lesser Armor and lesser weaponry, that wouldn't stand a chance if I attacked it, can hide bases and shoot out to sink your best ship before you know its there.
Natguy	posted 08-17-99 08:29 PM ET Well, you could just send the ships out in pairs, so when one is destroyed its parter can avenge its death. Another benefit of a strong navy is for protecting your seabases and taking those of the enemy (seeing as the AI, especially Believers, love seabases) That and it's just so cool to rule the seas. Look what it did for the British.
Sun_Tzu	posted 08-18-99 06:24 PM ET Usually I only build a few Destroyers (Foils in early game) to patrol the seas and, when I am in a war, to keep an enemy bottled up (bombardment of those pesky Sensors is nice too, hehe). However, for sea control I always use carriers. Better range, tons more firepower, and a larger area of control. The bad part is that if a carrier gets sunk, you lose all those nice Shard Copters =). However, I have found a good way to keep my carriers from being sunk. After the carrier finishes its last move, I send out all my Shard Copters to patrol the area. They can't go very far, but most of the time the enemy ships "stumble" on my fleet, so they are ususally close by. I have kept three of my aging Plasma Carriers from being destroyed this way. Now that I think about it, maybe I could keep one or two "Patrol Needlejets" on the carrier for increased range... Nah, it's probably not worth the extra production cost, hehe.
Combined Arms	posted 08-18-99 06:37 PM ET You do that every turn....damn..that gets annoying..well i also see that you really don't play alot of humans...no offence meant. Its a good idea though....to bad those missiles you can't block with orbital defence pods
Sun_Tzu	posted 08-18-99 08:38 PM ET Don't play a lot of humans? Where are you getting that from?
Combined Arms	posted 08-19-99 09:26 AM ET Well what i meant was this..... every turn i send a 2 or 3 needlejets(depending how much ocean) out to patrol ....with deep radar they can usually spot anyone even cloaked or hiding in fungis by the time there done with there sweep. To not bother with my ships dieing, i just send aleast 3 missiles, which is usually more than needed. I'm sorry about saying you don't play humans....i just thought patroling and missile using for anti-ship duties were common place between humans. Sorry ......although your tatic of using your air protection is nice on the wide oceans away from "most" patroling aircraft. Its also a good job to quickly eliminate an enemies sea