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Author Topic:   Hive and Spartans

Sun_Tzu posted 07-23-99 04:28 AM ET
Currently I am playing a game where I am the Hive. I am the highest rated Faction, and I am finishing up a war with the Gaians. In second place is the Peacekeepers. In a close third are the Spartans. I want to eventually create a Pact between my Faction and the Spartans, but every time I try I am rebuked. Santiago says that "your Faction has grown too powerful." Is it possible for me to create friendly relations with the Spartans, or is it impossible to do so? Thanks in advance to those who respond.

"Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete."
-SunTzu

Natguy posted 07-23-99 11:07 AM ET
Well the Spartans are usually (in my games) all-around cranky, and the only way to make peace is to suck up to them, and even that often doesn' work. And since you're the Hive, it makes it almost impossible to be at peace with anybody, so both dice are loaded against you. And they really hate you if you are the most powerful. Just kill them.
Plato90s posted 07-23-99 11:29 AM ET
I personally find the most reliable way to deal with the Spartans is Teddy Roosevelt's solution. Speak softly and carry a BIG stick.
First, demonstrate your military might by smacking around a few Spartan armies. Take a city or two. When Santiago calls up demanding her cities back, give them to her [they're usually worthless anyways] and demand a treaty.
If you hit fast and hard, and don't use a wimpy SE like Democratic or Green, you can get the Spartans to submit. I tend to do it more often when I'm playing the Hive or the Gaians.
Idunnoreally posted 07-23-99 12:06 PM ET
I was playing the HIVE once and situated in a continent where I quickly secured. The spartans was situated along with Gaians and Believers. When Santiago finished with both of those, she has lots of bases all over the continent! Sun_Tzu, just make sure you keep an eye on the Spartans. I'm not saying the AI is difficult to conquer because according to my experience, the AI is horrible at it. You can conquer a faction even if you're the underdog!
Just make sure the option for stealing a tech when you captured a base is used!!
Idunnoreally posted 07-23-99 12:18 PM ET
Sorry, that last reply was WAY out of topic. I don't even know what I was bluttering about!:-)
Anyway, the answer to the question is just like Plato's. Unless the base presents a strategic value, give it up!
P.s. as for the quote from Sun Tzu, it sounds more like a MIND CONTROL to me!
Sun_Tzu posted 07-23-99 01:24 PM ET
Thanks for the replies all. I want to ally with the Spartans because Santiago has the good luck to be on an island continent all by herself, and that continent is in between my own and the Peacekeepers/Believers. I figure she can keep them busy enough for me to build a few more bases so I can get the Industrial Machine That Is the Hive going, heh. However, now that I think about it, I really don't need to do that much kissing up. If I wanted to kiss up, I wouldn't play as Yang in the first place. Anyway, the AI is horrible at conducting any type of war (oooh, you landed ONE Impact Rover!).
Idunnoreally posted 07-23-99 01:47 PM ET
oooh,there is a way for the SPARTANS to keep the others busy!!!
The answer is to frame the others by using your probes!!!! Since you're in a war with them, don't worry about the consequences!!
Sun_Tzu posted 07-23-99 07:36 PM ET
*smacks self in head for not thinking of that first*
Thanks for the heads up.
laurens posted 07-25-99 02:02 AM ET
Check the SE choices.
Spartans and the Hive can get together, the former's arch-rival being the Peacekeepers and the latter as a neutral force to all.
Inix posted 07-25-99 06:20 AM ET
Hmmm, i always thought of the morganites as being diametrically opposed to the spartans. The spartans have an aversion to "wealth" not "democracy" and it doesnt seem like they r oriented tword total subjugation of the rights of the individual. Rather, they wish to aviod the exesses and decadence that opulence tends to breed.
The hive, otoh, tends to do exactly what the pk (and indeed, probably the UN charter as well) would be against. The mind control social choice in particular seems to me the ultimate in inhumane/diabolical rule.
Zoetrope posted 07-25-99 10:12 PM ET
Natural foes: here "pro" means that this faction demands that other factions must be seen to use this SE; "con" means that this faction cannot use the SE.
Morgan: pro Free Market, con Planned.
Gaians: pro Green, con Free Market.
Hive: pro Police State, con Democracy.
PKs: pro Democracy, con Police State.
Believers: pro Fundy, con Knowledge.
UoP: pro Knowledge, con Fundy.
Spartans: pro Power, con Wealth.
In summary:
Hive and PKs inevitably offend each other 100% of the time: so they are natural enemies.
Believers and UoP also have an unavoidable mutual loathing.
The Gaians can never please Morgan, but if Morgan goes Green, he can appease Deirdre.
Anyone can please the Spartans, by choosing Power. Conversely, the Spartans are able to choose any of the SE settings demanded by any one of other factions.
So, diplomatically, the Spartans are the easiest to play, and as Morgan you're not too badly off either, provided you switch from Wealth to Power before you call Santiago.
Of course all of this is modulo your military strength, and the history of the game. It's possible to have your deadly enemy eating out of your hand, if they need your favor enough.
It does seem strange that Firaxis describe the PKs and Spartans as opposites, because clearly they're not: both can choose Democracy, and both can choose Power.
In the background storyline, Lal develops a personal vendetta against Santiago (because her faction was responsible for his wife's death shortly before the crew escaped the Unity), but the game does not bear this out.
Inix posted 07-26-99 01:34 AM ET
So the story is were u got the spartans being opposite the PK from huh? I never read the story so i am ignorant of this little tidbit. Now i can c where u were comming from, i was speeking strictly from what the manual and game tells u about the various factions.
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Author	Topic: Hive and Spartans
Sun_Tzu	posted 07-23-99 04:28 AM ET Currently I am playing a game where I am the Hive. I am the highest rated Faction, and I am finishing up a war with the Gaians. In second place is the Peacekeepers. In a close third are the Spartans. I want to eventually create a Pact between my Faction and the Spartans, but every time I try I am rebuked. Santiago says that "your Faction has grown too powerful." Is it possible for me to create friendly relations with the Spartans, or is it impossible to do so? Thanks in advance to those who respond. "Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete." -SunTzu
Natguy	posted 07-23-99 11:07 AM ET Well the Spartans are usually (in my games) all-around cranky, and the only way to make peace is to suck up to them, and even that often doesn' work. And since you're the Hive, it makes it almost impossible to be at peace with anybody, so both dice are loaded against you. And they really hate you if you are the most powerful. Just kill them.
Plato90s	posted 07-23-99 11:29 AM ET I personally find the most reliable way to deal with the Spartans is Teddy Roosevelt's solution. Speak softly and carry a BIG stick. First, demonstrate your military might by smacking around a few Spartan armies. Take a city or two. When Santiago calls up demanding her cities back, give them to her [they're usually worthless anyways] and demand a treaty. If you hit fast and hard, and don't use a wimpy SE like Democratic or Green, you can get the Spartans to submit. I tend to do it more often when I'm playing the Hive or the Gaians.
Idunnoreally	posted 07-23-99 12:06 PM ET I was playing the HIVE once and situated in a continent where I quickly secured. The spartans was situated along with Gaians and Believers. When Santiago finished with both of those, she has lots of bases all over the continent! Sun_Tzu, just make sure you keep an eye on the Spartans. I'm not saying the AI is difficult to conquer because according to my experience, the AI is horrible at it. You can conquer a faction even if you're the underdog! Just make sure the option for stealing a tech when you captured a base is used!!
Idunnoreally	posted 07-23-99 12:18 PM ET Sorry, that last reply was WAY out of topic. I don't even know what I was bluttering about!:-) Anyway, the answer to the question is just like Plato's. Unless the base presents a strategic value, give it up! P.s. as for the quote from Sun Tzu, it sounds more like a MIND CONTROL to me!
Sun_Tzu	posted 07-23-99 01:24 PM ET Thanks for the replies all. I want to ally with the Spartans because Santiago has the good luck to be on an island continent all by herself, and that continent is in between my own and the Peacekeepers/Believers. I figure she can keep them busy enough for me to build a few more bases so I can get the Industrial Machine That Is the Hive going, heh. However, now that I think about it, I really don't need to do that much kissing up. If I wanted to kiss up, I wouldn't play as Yang in the first place. Anyway, the AI is horrible at conducting any type of war (oooh, you landed ONE Impact Rover!).
Idunnoreally	posted 07-23-99 01:47 PM ET oooh,there is a way for the SPARTANS to keep the others busy!!! The answer is to frame the others by using your probes!!!! Since you're in a war with them, don't worry about the consequences!!
Sun_Tzu	posted 07-23-99 07:36 PM ET smacks self in head for not thinking of that first Thanks for the heads up.
laurens	posted 07-25-99 02:02 AM ET Check the SE choices. Spartans and the Hive can get together, the former's arch-rival being the Peacekeepers and the latter as a neutral force to all.
Inix	posted 07-25-99 06:20 AM ET Hmmm, i always thought of the morganites as being diametrically opposed to the spartans. The spartans have an aversion to "wealth" not "democracy" and it doesnt seem like they r oriented tword total subjugation of the rights of the individual. Rather, they wish to aviod the exesses and decadence that opulence tends to breed. The hive, otoh, tends to do exactly what the pk (and indeed, probably the UN charter as well) would be against. The mind control social choice in particular seems to me the ultimate in inhumane/diabolical rule.
Zoetrope	posted 07-25-99 10:12 PM ET Natural foes: here "pro" means that this faction demands that other factions must be seen to use this SE; "con" means that this faction cannot use the SE. Morgan: pro Free Market, con Planned. Gaians: pro Green, con Free Market. Hive: pro Police State, con Democracy. PKs: pro Democracy, con Police State. Believers: pro Fundy, con Knowledge. UoP: pro Knowledge, con Fundy. Spartans: pro Power, con Wealth. In summary: Hive and PKs inevitably offend each other 100% of the time: so they are natural enemies. Believers and UoP also have an unavoidable mutual loathing. The Gaians can never please Morgan, but if Morgan goes Green, he can appease Deirdre. Anyone can please the Spartans, by choosing Power. Conversely, the Spartans are able to choose any of the SE settings demanded by any one of other factions. So, diplomatically, the Spartans are the easiest to play, and as Morgan you're not too badly off either, provided you switch from Wealth to Power before you call Santiago. Of course all of this is modulo your military strength, and the history of the game. It's possible to have your deadly enemy eating out of your hand, if they need your favor enough. It does seem strange that Firaxis describe the PKs and Spartans as opposites, because clearly they're not: both can choose Democracy, and both can choose Power. In the background storyline, Lal develops a personal vendetta against Santiago (because her faction was responsible for his wife's death shortly before the crew escaped the Unity), but the game does not bear this out.
Inix	posted 07-26-99 01:34 AM ET So the story is were u got the spartans being opposite the PK from huh? I never read the story so i am ignorant of this little tidbit. Now i can c where u were comming from, i was speeking strictly from what the manual and game tells u about the various factions.