posted 06-10-99 09:47 AM ET        

So I thought...well people have different playing styles. Some are extreme builders (usually peaceful till overwhelming power is attained), others are aggressive builders, or some are well....plain aggressive.

Sinse Im an extreme builder (in Civ I & II) as well as SMAC, Then Im inclinded towards the Peacekeepers. Sure Lal is ugly but his faction is good.

May basic reasoning is. Extremely High population that is stable (hab bonus and extra talents) means more production of all resourses including energy. Also they lack a real weakness (though people also argue personality as well) Never mind personality he is the A1+ of building.

posted 06-10-99 10:34 AM ET            

Their boosted industry lets them build things much faster, and their boosted growth gives them the population to support it.

posted 06-10-99 01:29 PM ET         

I have only played with spoils on, since every game I play with the computer I get gang-attacked so viciously that I can never build much but an army.

Do you mean you get something juicy when you completely destroy a faction with spoils off?
(say, all the tech at once?)

Otherwise, I would imagine that the computer would always win. It can throw 3 or 4 factions at you while the uninvolved ones cranks up production.

posted 06-10-99 03:47 PM ET            

I play with it on cuz, like with Blind Research, I consider it more realistic. If I capture a city, what makes you think I'm /not/ going to hunt up the scientists?

That having been said:

I tried playing the PK and I didn't do /nearly/ as well building as I did with the Believers. I realize this seems odd, but I swear up and down the Believers are just as useful as a builder faction as they are as a conquer faction... Though I'm not sure I'd say they were best. I haven't played all the factions yet so I am not sure about the Hive, but ofthe 5 I've played, I think my best game infrastructure-wise may have BEEN that Believers game I had the diplomacy victory on... though I think it ran close with one of my Gaian games.

Part of it is, since you get your techs slowly at first, you don't have anything better to do than to expand like a pack of rabbits and then build one of everything you have. Granted, if you run into enemies early on, fighting them is an option, but scouts and other early units take very little time to build, so you still have time to build other things.

posted 06-11-99 05:36 AM ET            

Well it depends of your definition of Builder...
I mean try to play the Hive in a non-aggressive pattern and try to really build with it...
You will see that you'll get your arse kicked by the likes of PK, UoP and Morgan.
Of course if you do a little bit on both then you stand a chance. And if you manage to hit the 3 aforementionned then you'll be the best... but that will be because you'd have destroyed the 3 best builders right away...

In any event, I'd have a tough time deciding between PK, UoP and Morgan because they all have advantages depending on how you play 'em.

posted 06-11-99 10:57 AM ET            

However Im going to back up (hopefully infallably) that PK's are the best builders for most of the game. At the very end I think Gaians take it away with +2 efficiency.

First of all PK's have the well mentioned +2 hab bonus. For a good part of the game Ill have bases around 9 when others are at 7. Now collecting 10 squares rather then 8 is better then a +1 industry bonus or +2 research of UoP. But what makes this so good is that the PK's have no really problem with drones. This means its easy to get bases size 9 without wasting citizens in becoming doctors or there ilk.

Getting to Size 9 is the job of the Demo/planned/creche trick...something that the Hive cannot duplicate at all...

But the main thing some people lose sight of is that those extra Talents make Golden Ages really simple. Combine with Wealth, this means Demo/Planned/wealth....raise psych allocation to 20% and you get +2 economy and have +2 industry. Wow. I know that psych is normally a waste but in this particular instance it still gives more energy and PK's will collect more squares anyway. So the PK's would have a huge population, and will economically lead (especialy if Governor, easy with PK's)Morgan is only collecting 4 squares besides the city one remember, and this usually means im out-teching the UoP. I get more energy by collecting more squares and im sure that heaps of effort is need to suppress those drones....like raising psych, making doctors etc.

This all leads to the "Exponential effect" I experience in most of my games. Having high production, population and tech means that I found effective bases more quickly which helps my lead. I also tend to hog nearly all the SP's. If I have a badly behaved neighbour I hold him off easy (sensor, bunker, forest, 2 or 3 units, one with artillery) in the choke points. If very annoying I do the NATO and UN style "Peacekeeping"...hey who says that we cant fight....!!!!

Oh a thing I missed. After most cities are at full potential then I switch planned to green, especially as the empire is growing larger and production is high I need the extra planet and efficiency boosts. And growth is still at +2 (Golden Age)

Comments ???? arguements ????

posted 06-12-99 11:08 AM ET            

End game I hope you agree with this. Demo/green/power/eudomonic (with Cloning vats) Eudomonics +2 Industry and Economy is better then Cybernetic, and power helps ofset morale. However Cloning vats does make the +2 growth factor nil. Also +2 planet is all thats really need with green. Not 4 or 5.

Second, I acknowledge that Golden Ages dont last 4 ever and therefor Free market has its place. But sinse in a city of 9 early on I use 2 forset squares, even with no tree farm (till I get them)-3 planet really hurts and so do fungus and mind worms. -30% psi attack sucks as well. Keeping industry going without a bezerk planet is a priority for me.

posted 06-15-99 06:55 PM ET            

Can I ask you, builders?

First. Expansion. In the very early game I build only scouts, pods and formers. This time efficiency, support and industry are most important things. You can say growth, but on transcend first citizen is a drone if you have >10 bases on Huge map with 0 effic. It means that bases should not grow to size 2 (or you must build facilities or extra police units). PK has his talent but effic too low and very fast first face is a worker, soon it is a drone... This time, I think, Deirdre and Yang are two fastest expansionists. Maybe Morgan with extra money and hurring production is third.

Second. Secret projects. All projects help for something, and of course it's nice to have them all, but sometime very, very difficult (or impossible with some factions). Currently, my own preferences are HG/CN, then WP/EG. VW as UoP.

Questions. I more ask about start.

-How do you combine expansion, military and SP's?
For me, I like a huge well defended empire with few SP, but with ability be ready to war any moment. In such situation even Miriam near Zak is not a problem (I was in Pact with her for at least 100 years, then just treaty. She didnt harras me, and I left her alive). Nobody demands techs or money and everyone suggests treaties (or truce, at least). Commerce grows up, and you are a governor. Tech trade is smooth and active.

-Large bases. Why do you like them?
This is a pain. One word: DRONES. Every new one is a drone, and you build Rec Common, Police Units (not at FM) etc. Moreover, if you lost it (just imagine) by any reason, it hurts you stronger then if it would be small one.

-Why builders don't like overlapping?
It is important only after ~100-150 years, but tons of small bases help be a leader in all categories (for single player at least). Your pods walk faster and new productive cities build more and more things. Later just move HQ to sector with large high-energy productive bases and leave other bases for crawlers, troops and fomers. PB is only one real problem for such empire, but only if your reactor is better than fusion (but DefPod is a question of few years).

-Why most people don't like Power?
Industry? But more cities with low production and high support equal or even better than few cities with high production and low-morale units. More aggressive player with troops as locuts will be annoying and hard to talk with. If you MUST go to war, Power is better than Knowledge (w/o HSA) or Wealth. Clean reactor is the best thing for faction with low support, but sometime it is cheaper to build simple units (if opponent has a strong deffence/offence). Miriam does not build clean units at all (Believers, this is a builder forum ).
Moreover, Power/FM helps with Planet. High morale units collect money for you even w/o Empath ability. And Power allows you to use Demo in war time, or when you expand (I dont stop expand till late middle of game, when drones are biggest pain).
Demo/FM/Power => slower industry, little slower research, faster expansion and less problems with other factions and friendly Planet. If you dont use money to harry production, what do you use it for?

-Is it interesting to fight in very end, with singularity(?) gun vs. poor silkstil units???

posted 06-16-99 07:47 AM ET            

Firstly, as was mentioned above, you don't worry about growing bases for a while just keep churning out those colony pods. Then, later, you get so much energy you buy base facilities every turn - well worth investing in bringing forward energy banks in most cities as well as terraforming up.

posted 06-16-99 12:12 PM ET         

20 size 30 bases = a LOT of firepower supported free

posted 06-16-99 05:59 PM ET            

First the peacekeepers have a bug that I have never seen documented, once you start converting workers into specialists the extra talents start to turn into drones. Try it, take a size 18 city and convert 5 workers into specialists. Then open the psych screen and check out the the first level for base psych. Those talents turn into drones!! In fact, eventually every citizen in the base psych screen will either be a drone or a specialist. This does not happen to any other faction but the PK.

Second, neither the Hive or the Morgans are good builders because neither one can get Population Booms. Correct me if I am wrong, but the growth bonus from golden ages will not throw your city into a Pop Boom. And any serious Pop growth is through Pop Boom, not food accumulation.

Third, base overlap is very good. Unlike Civ2 where, sewer systems became available fairly early in the game, the Hab Domes is not available until almost the end (When the game is basically over). Therefore you have a lot of wasted population. Yes I mean population, especially specialists. A PK city that uses all eighteen squares will be generating a ton of extra food each turn that will go to waste. Instead, build two cities that are only 2 squares apart and have each base utilize only ten squares. As long as each square can produces 3 food - you can easily grow both cities to the maximum size. You will end up with two size 15 cities that are utilizing 20 squares and have 10 specialists. Believe me 2 size 15 cities that have between 6 and 12 specialists will crush one size eighteen city that is utilizing every square. Most specialists can produce the equivalent of 3 to 5 energy. This is better than almost any city square and the specialists is not affected by inefficiency. This is very important because unlike Civ2, there is no way to make your civilization impervious to inefficiency. Who cares if you get +1 energy per square if you lose 10-30% to inefficiency. By building your bases closer together you can increase your total population by 30% to 50% and still utilize the same number of squares. Total population size is the most important thing in the game. Believe it or not I actually hate this fact about SMAC because I love to build big spreadout cities in Civ2. Kind of long for a first post - so I will skip the benefits on ecodamage, development time, satellites and military production.

Any thoughts?

posted 06-16-99 11:33 PM ET            

Second. I can't believe that people actually put Morgans 1st. Yeah I think they are good (sometimes) but outbuild the PK's?!?!?...... I don't think so. If you use the Morgan strategy as per above, believe me you won't get enough SP's. Second If you have a Pop boom size 9 city then I can churn out the pods in no time, make em rover even! If ive got more, so much the better. Even a pop boom 5 city is cool(er) then the Morgans strategy above. I must admit Morgans do get a hell of a lot of credits BUT if I make sure that they have no peace with anyone, or hardly anyone then it is all for naught.

posted 06-22-99 10:42 PM ET            

"Morganites, survive the first hundred turns and play expansionisticly, an you'll see what
1000+ E.C.s per turn will do to yor build strategies. "

Before I begin my arguments tho I'd like to put a few things straight as I did in my post before.
This Topic is about the best builder in a "pure" builder oriented game. This means you should not thing conquest before the late stage of the game (when you got Air power and those Chaos guns )

With that in mind, the Morganites will kill everybody else. First of, with the Hab Complex, the Morganites goes to pop 13 size base and not pop 9... at least it did in my game.

posted 06-24-99 12:18 AM ET         

Crawlers can only harvest one resource per square, but then they don't consume 2 nutrients, can never be drones, don't require hab complexes to grow, and most importantly, they stock minerals within themselves. In the early game, you can build up your bases by crawlers a lot faster than by population, and early game is what decides the entire game.

posted 06-25-99 03:26 PM ET            

P.S. I play Morgan as conqueror not builder. More difficult than Yang but much more interesting.

posted 06-29-99 01:29 PM ET         

The Hive however is the only faction that I run out of things to build in a city throughout a game. Police/Planned/Wealth is great.

Pop booms are nice and the Hive can't really get them, but you can build as many formers (once clean reactor is available)and as many supply crawlers as you want. Drop supply crawlers are excellent. Mid game they take 2 turns to build and you can always find somewhere to get 2-4 resources. Food production DOES lead to higher populations. Not as quick as population bombs, but 5 supply crawlers can produce 10+ food for free. Supply crawlers ARE the Hive's population boom. 5 people in a city and 10 supply crawlers SORT of equals other factions pop 13 cities. Yes, they can only send one resource, but they can send it from ANYWHERE on the map that they can get to! City borders are meaningless. Hive can have 100 workers in a city (some human and most mechanical (crawlers)).

Cannon fodder supply crawlers and formers are great. Who cares if you loose 10 of them, they are cheap to build. Heck everything is cheap to build.

I.E.
Yang's second in command: "Sir! Enemy forces are attacking from the north. Should we sent the infantry, calvery (speeders) or the air force. We will have to take them from our troops that have about beaten the XXXX to the south."

Yang: "No. Lets go ahead and finish the war to the south. Send a squad of formers and 2 squads of supply cralwers to the north to delay that enemy."

I have this wonderful vision of Yang organizing his crawlers and formers into squads. I nice line of forest helps to slow down an army.

Another thing: Alien artifacts add 50 to a Secret Project. That 50 minerals means a lot more if you have +3 industry. ESPICIALLY FOR THE EARLY PROJECTS.

Although there is more to say, that is enough for now. All that do not agree line up to be destroyed by the Hive Hoard.