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Author Topic:   University Drones

Smeagol posted 06-05-99 04:17 PM ET
I've heard quite a few people defend the University here, and I'm curious how much money you all typically allocate to psych with them.
Plato90s posted 06-05-99 07:08 PM ET
20% is as high as I ever go.
Smeagol posted 06-05-99 10:26 PM ET
At what population level do you find you have to allocate this psych level or even just to 10%?
I am curious because I have heard defenders of the UoP say that the UoP's drone problems are not all that much more significant than any other faction (but the PKs). But if you find yourself allocating energy to psych earlier in the game, then it obviously is more of a disadvantage.
I think the UoP can be an excellent faction early on, because Net Nodes and 20% boost to research, along with the ability to cash in artifacts right away allows them to get a huge advantage in tech early. However, I don't see how they can do better than the PKs in the end in research when they have to allocate so much energy to psych to solve their drones. Remember of course that psych allocation lowers your base score for energy (if a city is making 50 energy/turn, then 50% allocation to research means 25/turn, and then you take into account facilities that boost this). So using psych and losing research allocation is a real negative, as lowering your research allocation to 40% means just 20/turn before facilities are considered.
However, I am beginning to agree that the University is really an excellent faction, though I can research a little faster with the PKs. The fact is, the PK research is actually only a little faster, and since the UoP gets such a nice early research boost, they do better against conqueror factions (a must for MP games).
Plato90s posted 06-06-99 12:30 AM ET
Well, I start energy allocation only after I start building psych-enhancing facilities like Biology Lab and Hologram Theatres [via Virtual World, most of the time]. The 20% is the minimum necessary in a city of 4-7 to get even 1-2 drones to be converted to workers. 10% is absolutely useless in a city that small.
This rule applies to every faction I play except high police value ones like the Hive.
VictorK posted 06-06-99 04:56 AM ET
I don't allocate any psych level at least until I get Environmental Economics. I don't use Free Market until I get EnvEco, and unless one does I don't see why anyone playing UoP (at Transcend of course) would need to allocate any psych at the time his bases are of pop 4-7. With most or all of rec commons, VW, HGP, research hospital, and a single police unit (unless under Free Market), your base pop can grow to size 6 or 7 (5 or 6 if under Free Market) without any need for psych. If you use Free Market early and you need to allocate 20% to psych, you might better not use Free Market at that time. And if you have only a few bases which need psych (captured bases or bureaucracy), you should not allocate any psych level (use specialist instead), since you don't want to waste psych on other bases which don't need it. Only allocate psych if all or almost all of your bases need it.
After I get EnvEco, I switch to Free Market (occasionally Planned for a few turns for pop boom), and I sometimes set psych to 10%, though quite often I just leave it at 0% the entire game, relying on thinkers/empaths instead. With VW/research hospital/tree farm/hybrid forest, 2 empaths and 1 thinker are good for converting 7 drones (6 without hybrid forest). And since I don't want that much mineral production (I don't want high ecodamage with Free Market), crawler+specialist often gives me better production per square than the worker.
BTW, I don't understand the comment that the PK could possibly be "a little faster" than UoP in research. Even if you lower your research to 40% (which is definitely not necessary) for UoP, your +2 research bonus makes it as good as 48%, compared to 50% for the PK, and this is discounting the free network node factor. Compare this to the difference in the early game, when UoP is 80% faster than PK in research. Because of the minerals saved early (for the free network node), the UoP will also get other research-boosting facilities (e.g. research hospitals) earlier than the PK. Unless the UoP player plays terribly (which is the case for the computer), I don't see how the PK could possibly be faster in research than UoP in any moment of the game, and even if it does I fail to see how it could possibly make up for the significant early slack.
Krushala posted 06-06-99 10:23 AM ET
I never allocate psych with UOP. Of course I usually play librarian or thinker. It not as fun dealing with all the drones on trancend. just a big pain. you guys are right about 10% psych. It did nothing for me. I guess I should have went to 20%. I just rushed building the virtual world. A must for UOP.
DrPhibes posted 06-06-99 10:56 AM ET
If you people allocate 10% to psych, which do you take it from, economy or research?
I'm playing a game now where i have 10% psych -- when i took it from economy i was pulling tech per three turns and about 200 creds per turn
-- when i took it from research i was pulling the same tech rate but had about 250-300 creds per turn
One other thing i found is building the cloning vats can be dangerous for UoP because pop boom means more drones. You need to be ready for it.
Just a coupla thoughts
Smeagol posted 06-06-99 02:53 PM ET
Victor-- Hey, now that's exactly what I said. The PKs are a little faster at research later in the game, and don't forget that extra 2 population-- it means a good deal when using Free Market. But I do agree that since the University is so much faster initially, if managed correctly they should win out in research. But you need more caution growing early on. I still would play the PKs over the University, but I'll admit I think the 2 factions are a lot closer than I used to feel. The PKs are easier to manage, but a well played UoP should be able to beat a well played PK, just because the early stages of the game are so critical.
Alkis posted 06-06-99 05:26 PM ET
Smeagol,
The UoP is great. The point is you get a research MOMENTUM.

You can switch to FM safely at about 2130. It's funny, because it was you who opened my eyes to the power of an early free market.
You should definately go for Environmental Economics, but you don't need that to use FM. In fact FM will help you get it VERY early. Even before 2140. This actually happened in some of my games.
IMHO you should not build more than 6 bases initially. Otherwise you may not be able to handle the drone problems, ending up with less lab output than you would have with fewer bases. You can expand later, after you build the necessary SP and pop boom your cities.
I allocate a % to Psych during my first pop boom. Then I keep 10% - 20% depending on the circumstances.
After that, Thought Control is a discovery to go after. With Demo/FM/Knowledge/ThoughtControl you can get a new tech every 2 turns and fight at the same time (without punishment spheres). I mean you can sell your punishment spheres after you discover Thought Control.
I don't think we can compare the PK (or any other race) with the UoP. They don't START from the same point. True, PK's talents and pop is an advantage but they need time to catch up with UoP's network nodes. Then to discover Environmental Economics, I mean the UoP will have tree farms built before the PK's even discover EE. The key word to understand the difference is momentum. We are not comparing two races who have, the one +2 research and the other +2 pop and more talents. The UoP will have the benefits from great technologies earlier and this will make it's lead even greater.
A final statement. I have 3 Trans. victories with the UoP on mission years 2284, 2290, 2291. I never managed to Transcend before 2300 with any other race.
K posted 06-06-99 11:51 PM ET
Drones?
Why, that's why we have Punishment Spheres. I find that the -50% research is REALLY offset by the extra energy from bases that go from 6 to 14 in eight turns(I love pop. booms).
A Sphere only costs 2 energy to maintain a size 14 base in full production. The alternative is a Holo Theater(3), a Rec. Commons(1), Paradise Garden(4), the minerals to build those facilites, the (3)minerals each turn per base for Police(with the right SE), the hundreds of minerals wasted on Drone related SP's, and last but not least the 20-40% energy off the top for Psych. And that doesn't even count for the Doctors/Telepaths/Thinkers you've been allocating.
In the later game, when I build the Telepathic Matrix and scratched the Spheres, the extra reseach doesn't mean dick. It doesn't help at all, just added a little money(which I assume was because I no longer had the P-Sphere maintianance cost.
Penny Foh Yu Thot posted 06-11-99 05:52 AM ET
The strategy with Uop IMHO depends on the size of the planet.
On large and huge planet the trick is to get the first 3 SP (genome, Weather and Virtual)
Once you got those 3 then it's really hard to do anything wrong with UoP...
The trick to do it is to start those projects immediately after you have built 4 or 5 bases.
And the very BEST tip is your to pike the spot of your first 3 bases very very carefully so you have instant production in food and minerals. I usually go for a spot with at least 2 ressources bonuses (monolith count as a bonus of course!) for those first 3 bases.
Since you're on a big surface, the chance of meeting adversity is very small. Plus on this the CPU plays you very badly because since you're concentrating on SP then your faction seems pitifull and the CPU will ignore you most of the time (less you have a tech they are interested in, in which case all you have to do is give it to bide your time)
Of course I would NEVER try that on a multi game unless I'd be allied with Miriam at start...
And after you get those 3 as I said, the rest is just bla bla bla... You just build as many bases as you can and develop like a monster in it's nest
Oh and I play on Transcend and I am like 5 Victories and 0 with this tactic On transcend
My 2 cents worth
P.S. If you're good with creating new faction, could you go check my problem at Faction-> Creating Faction) Thanx!
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Author	Topic: University Drones
Smeagol	posted 06-05-99 04:17 PM ET I've heard quite a few people defend the University here, and I'm curious how much money you all typically allocate to psych with them.
Plato90s	posted 06-05-99 07:08 PM ET 20% is as high as I ever go.
Smeagol	posted 06-05-99 10:26 PM ET At what population level do you find you have to allocate this psych level or even just to 10%? I am curious because I have heard defenders of the UoP say that the UoP's drone problems are not all that much more significant than any other faction (but the PKs). But if you find yourself allocating energy to psych earlier in the game, then it obviously is more of a disadvantage. I think the UoP can be an excellent faction early on, because Net Nodes and 20% boost to research, along with the ability to cash in artifacts right away allows them to get a huge advantage in tech early. However, I don't see how they can do better than the PKs in the end in research when they have to allocate so much energy to psych to solve their drones. Remember of course that psych allocation lowers your base score for energy (if a city is making 50 energy/turn, then 50% allocation to research means 25/turn, and then you take into account facilities that boost this). So using psych and losing research allocation is a real negative, as lowering your research allocation to 40% means just 20/turn before facilities are considered. However, I am beginning to agree that the University is really an excellent faction, though I can research a little faster with the PKs. The fact is, the PK research is actually only a little faster, and since the UoP gets such a nice early research boost, they do better against conqueror factions (a must for MP games).
Plato90s	posted 06-06-99 12:30 AM ET Well, I start energy allocation only after I start building psych-enhancing facilities like Biology Lab and Hologram Theatres [via Virtual World, most of the time]. The 20% is the minimum necessary in a city of 4-7 to get even 1-2 drones to be converted to workers. 10% is absolutely useless in a city that small. This rule applies to every faction I play except high police value ones like the Hive.
VictorK	posted 06-06-99 04:56 AM ET I don't allocate any psych level at least until I get Environmental Economics. I don't use Free Market until I get EnvEco, and unless one does I don't see why anyone playing UoP (at Transcend of course) would need to allocate any psych at the time his bases are of pop 4-7. With most or all of rec commons, VW, HGP, research hospital, and a single police unit (unless under Free Market), your base pop can grow to size 6 or 7 (5 or 6 if under Free Market) without any need for psych. If you use Free Market early and you need to allocate 20% to psych, you might better not use Free Market at that time. And if you have only a few bases which need psych (captured bases or bureaucracy), you should not allocate any psych level (use specialist instead), since you don't want to waste psych on other bases which don't need it. Only allocate psych if all or almost all of your bases need it. After I get EnvEco, I switch to Free Market (occasionally Planned for a few turns for pop boom), and I sometimes set psych to 10%, though quite often I just leave it at 0% the entire game, relying on thinkers/empaths instead. With VW/research hospital/tree farm/hybrid forest, 2 empaths and 1 thinker are good for converting 7 drones (6 without hybrid forest). And since I don't want that much mineral production (I don't want high ecodamage with Free Market), crawler+specialist often gives me better production per square than the worker. BTW, I don't understand the comment that the PK could possibly be "a little faster" than UoP in research. Even if you lower your research to 40% (which is definitely not necessary) for UoP, your +2 research bonus makes it as good as 48%, compared to 50% for the PK, and this is discounting the free network node factor. Compare this to the difference in the early game, when UoP is 80% faster than PK in research. Because of the minerals saved early (for the free network node), the UoP will also get other research-boosting facilities (e.g. research hospitals) earlier than the PK. Unless the UoP player plays terribly (which is the case for the computer), I don't see how the PK could possibly be faster in research than UoP in any moment of the game, and even if it does I fail to see how it could possibly make up for the significant early slack.
Krushala	posted 06-06-99 10:23 AM ET I never allocate psych with UOP. Of course I usually play librarian or thinker. It not as fun dealing with all the drones on trancend. just a big pain. you guys are right about 10% psych. It did nothing for me. I guess I should have went to 20%. I just rushed building the virtual world. A must for UOP.
DrPhibes	posted 06-06-99 10:56 AM ET If you people allocate 10% to psych, which do you take it from, economy or research? I'm playing a game now where i have 10% psych -- when i took it from economy i was pulling tech per three turns and about 200 creds per turn -- when i took it from research i was pulling the same tech rate but had about 250-300 creds per turn One other thing i found is building the cloning vats can be dangerous for UoP because pop boom means more drones. You need to be ready for it. Just a coupla thoughts
Smeagol	posted 06-06-99 02:53 PM ET Victor-- Hey, now that's exactly what I said. The PKs are a little faster at research later in the game, and don't forget that extra 2 population-- it means a good deal when using Free Market. But I do agree that since the University is so much faster initially, if managed correctly they should win out in research. But you need more caution growing early on. I still would play the PKs over the University, but I'll admit I think the 2 factions are a lot closer than I used to feel. The PKs are easier to manage, but a well played UoP should be able to beat a well played PK, just because the early stages of the game are so critical.
Alkis	posted 06-06-99 05:26 PM ET Smeagol, The UoP is great. The point is you get a research MOMENTUM. You can switch to FM safely at about 2130. It's funny, because it was you who opened my eyes to the power of an early free market. You should definately go for Environmental Economics, but you don't need that to use FM. In fact FM will help you get it VERY early. Even before 2140. This actually happened in some of my games. IMHO you should not build more than 6 bases initially. Otherwise you may not be able to handle the drone problems, ending up with less lab output than you would have with fewer bases. You can expand later, after you build the necessary SP and pop boom your cities. I allocate a % to Psych during my first pop boom. Then I keep 10% - 20% depending on the circumstances. After that, Thought Control is a discovery to go after. With Demo/FM/Knowledge/ThoughtControl you can get a new tech every 2 turns and fight at the same time (without punishment spheres). I mean you can sell your punishment spheres after you discover Thought Control. I don't think we can compare the PK (or any other race) with the UoP. They don't START from the same point. True, PK's talents and pop is an advantage but they need time to catch up with UoP's network nodes. Then to discover Environmental Economics, I mean the UoP will have tree farms built before the PK's even discover EE. The key word to understand the difference is momentum. We are not comparing two races who have, the one +2 research and the other +2 pop and more talents. The UoP will have the benefits from great technologies earlier and this will make it's lead even greater. A final statement. I have 3 Trans. victories with the UoP on mission years 2284, 2290, 2291. I never managed to Transcend before 2300 with any other race.
K	posted 06-06-99 11:51 PM ET Drones? Why, that's why we have Punishment Spheres. I find that the -50% research is REALLY offset by the extra energy from bases that go from 6 to 14 in eight turns(I love pop. booms). A Sphere only costs 2 energy to maintain a size 14 base in full production. The alternative is a Holo Theater(3), a Rec. Commons(1), Paradise Garden(4), the minerals to build those facilites, the (3)minerals each turn per base for Police(with the right SE), the hundreds of minerals wasted on Drone related SP's, and last but not least the 20-40% energy off the top for Psych. And that doesn't even count for the Doctors/Telepaths/Thinkers you've been allocating. In the later game, when I build the Telepathic Matrix and scratched the Spheres, the extra reseach doesn't mean dick. It doesn't help at all, just added a little money(which I assume was because I no longer had the P-Sphere maintianance cost.
Penny Foh Yu Thot	posted 06-11-99 05:52 AM ET The strategy with Uop IMHO depends on the size of the planet. On large and huge planet the trick is to get the first 3 SP (genome, Weather and Virtual) Once you got those 3 then it's really hard to do anything wrong with UoP... The trick to do it is to start those projects immediately after you have built 4 or 5 bases. And the very BEST tip is your to pike the spot of your first 3 bases very very carefully so you have instant production in food and minerals. I usually go for a spot with at least 2 ressources bonuses (monolith count as a bonus of course!) for those first 3 bases. Since you're on a big surface, the chance of meeting adversity is very small. Plus on this the CPU plays you very badly because since you're concentrating on SP then your faction seems pitifull and the CPU will ignore you most of the time (less you have a tech they are interested in, in which case all you have to do is give it to bide your time) Of course I would NEVER try that on a multi game unless I'd be allied with Miriam at start... And after you get those 3 as I said, the rest is just bla bla bla... You just build as many bases as you can and develop like a monster in it's nest Oh and I play on Transcend and I am like 5 Victories and 0 with this tactic On transcend My 2 cents worth P.S. If you're good with creating new faction, could you go check my problem at Faction-> Creating Faction) Thanx!