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Author Topic:   Believer Strategies
High Priest posted 06-04-99 04:47 PM ET   Click Here to See the Profile for High Priest  
What ever happened to Series? Though he was gonna post every faction. At any rate, i know very little about believers, please enlighten me

High Priest

Krushala posted 06-04-99 04:52 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Krushala  Click Here to Email Krushala     
strategy: commit suicide and restart with a good faction
Plato90s posted 06-04-99 05:36 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Plato90s    
The key with Believers is that you will not be able to keep up in the technology race early on by being a nice Believer. Be mean and aggressive.

Go for production and pump out the troops quickly. That 25% bonus only applies when you are attacking, after all.

The only real important goal of research is probe team. Once you have that, you can use the probe teams to keep you updated on what everyone else is working on. Be sure to build the HSA, if possible, to deny it to the enemy. Because the guy with the best tech development tends to be the one that wants to build the HSA - don't allow it. How else are you going to steal his tech advances?

A good game on Believers would end with you being massively ahead by the time Chaos guns are developed.

Dowdc posted 06-04-99 05:49 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Dowdc  Click Here to Email Dowdc     
There are three warlike factions in the game (Hive, Spartans, and Believers) or four if you count the Gaians. Of the three, the Spartans are by far the best at early conquest where their extra speeder and morale bonuses conbine to make them lethal to any other faction. However, they are severely handicapped if they progress through the game without getting a submission pact from a nearby faction early on. Later on anyone can get an equivalent morale bonus by going fundy, power, etc...

The Hive is a very powerful faction with incredible production benefits that make them a brutal military power throughout the game. I don't like them personally, though.

The Believers are my personal favorite faction partially because of their unparalleled military mid to late in the game. The Hive may have a production advantage, but the quality of the Believer's units is far superior.

Let me explain...

First of all, there are the probe teams. The Believers have a very good economy--better than either the Hive or the Spartans. This provides them with enough cash to let their probe teams (all elite, of course) go to work. And a beautiful sight it is! The Believers should produce a probe team army and let them buy, steal, and sabotage everything they can reach. Since they all have 3 moves, they can reach a lot. An elite probe team can destroy a base improvement OF YOUR CHOICE 50% of the time. So by producing 2 probe teams, the Believers can be assured of destroying an enemies hybrid forest, for example, thereby "winning" 5-10 times the production they lost by making the teams. And when supporting the Believers ground troops, base defenses can be destroyed, supporting units can be bought, etc... all to a devastating effect.

And then there's the +25% offensive bonus, a military advantage no other faction can make up. This makes the Believer's units the best on Planet.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Believer units and cities can't be bought once a fundamentalist govt is achieved. This is an amazing military advantage. HSA? Who needs it?

I can hear all of you right now..."they may have good units, but my faction will be so far ahead in tech it will be a joke once we start fighting!" Don't kid yourself. -20% tech isn't that big of a deal. Any tech that is really needed can be stolen, easily. And besides, it takes a really big tech advantage to give even a marginal military (esp. defensive) advantage.

gwimweeper posted 06-04-99 10:18 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for gwimweeper    
As for me, I always make the scenario visible and pay every body credits up front. This is considered cheating acc.to game. I have played one or two times out of the box, and if I am not immediate neighbors with with Hive or Spartans, I am ok. But this slows the game so much I dont like it.
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I cant believe the wasted moves the computer makes with all the opposing factions at transcend level. Time after time a unit goes out on a purpose and does a 180 and goes back to its original position. Needlejets with obvious targets of priority wasting themselves at eliminating low echelon units. It goes on and on.
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The believers work well at "democratic", and "green". The Hive dont like democratic. So if your their neighbor,...watch out.Morgan doesnt like green economics, but he`s sneaky, and will vendetta you usually after someone else does, and send out his probes. He hurt me bad twice ,.. the sneak.
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Santiago gets ruffled at "knowledge" values, but is an ally at "power". (so far)
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When I have reached "cybernetic" society, The believers have been so far ahead, its funny. Lal, and Gaia gush over the wisdom of leadership of the believers anytime democratic and green are chosen.Peacekeepers go to my aid EVERY time someone vendettas me. (so far)
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Zarkov gets snotty When I change to "Wealth" economy.
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It depends on how one plays the game.
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"democratic" and "green" and either one of the following, "power"-"knowledge"-"wealth", depending on who the closest neighbor is . (If you dont want a moodswing with a Pact faction). "cybernetic" has given me a 7 paradigm economy when I have used this formula.
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My game is build and expand for 100 years, and hurry everything with edit base. I never fall far enough behind in tech to make much difference by then.
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Defensive at first, then get some offense when times are troubled.
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I like to give tech away after I have used it for 5 to 6 years. I have the edge, and I get a lot of "submissive" from factions. I like that.
Zozo posted 06-04-99 11:07 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zozo  Click Here to Email Zozo     
I only played one transcend game as the Believer so I wouldn't claim to be an expert but I agree that the 20% penalty on Science is not as devastating as some made it to be. I managed to build the Virtual World and became the #1 in Tech without using the probe team to steal any tech. Some of the advantages I found which have not been mentioned are:
- All other Civs don't want to mess around with the Believer, especially early in the game. They are all anxious to sign treaties and leave me alone so I could build the SPs in peace with little need to build expensive units for defence.
- Probably for the same reason of not wanting to force me to use my crack probe teams, they scrambled over each others to trade techs with me. Since I was the tech trading center, I got the most of them
- I can expand much easier without some other civ trying to bully me around and declare war on me at a moment notice. I got voted governor thanks to the population and money was rolling in even faster.
- With Virtual World and extra minerals saved from not having to build expensive units and Recreation Common, I can build Network Nodes everywhere and tech was no problems.
Obviously, I was playing as a peaceful Believers . Most other civs would be callimg me a wimp and declaring wars on me if I played the Peacekeepers, following the same strategy. Being an infamous mean bitch does have its advantage
Tres posted 06-05-99 09:19 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Tres  Click Here to Email Tres     
you can mange the believers even on transcend level.
just adept to their society. a hard working class on the farms and mines. think a lot about your terraforming abilities.
and take advantage of their superior probe teams.
diplomacy is essential. trade with tech for tech with the research factions (gaians, uop, pk) and money for tech with the others (morgan, spartans, yang.
especially in the beginning it�s important to make some friends/treaties even if the conditions ain�t so good.

play the role of the puppet master. it�s effective to let your partners fight your wars. give technology, bases, money or units to them. think about the role of religion in history. most religions gained real world power by manipulating the structures of the government, social life or economy.
ok, that�s was (mostly) in the past, but on alpha centauri it should work again.

Tres der Heilsbringer,
Pontifex of the Believers in Superior Humanity

gwimweeper posted 06-05-99 05:20 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for gwimweeper    
Whoopsie.
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I made a mistake. I ,as a believer, cannot have "knowledge" in my reportoire. I also play Gaiains, so`s I was totally mixed.
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The other responses are right on.
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Power dont always come from war.
HolyWarrior posted 06-07-99 03:34 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for HolyWarrior  Click Here to Email HolyWarrior     
Mebbe not, gwimmy, but that's the way to bet.
Let me mention something that the manual doesn't. +2 support. This means 4 units per base. Crank those scouts out.

If I find the Uni, I make him submit. Usually knocking out a couple bases will do it.

In peacetime, go for Demo/Planned for the growth. In war, go Fundy/Green. And grimmy, you need HSA, to keep it from the heathens.

I have found that if I'm nice at the start, the others will trade techs with me, or let me buy them. Another thing--the first ten years, since you can't do research anyway, crank up the energy to 80% (No, not 100%, because the diminishing returns will get you there).

And unlike the stupid AI, and Hitler, try to fight only one war at a time. With me, it's almost always the Hive. The Spartans are generally the second to die.

In general, you want to be the only warmonger faction left on planet.

Series II posted 06-07-99 08:34 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Series II    
I (Series) am around, but I was only really interested in the Hive, UOP and Gaians. I was not sure if there would be interest in a forum for the other factions. It looks like Morgan and the Believers got theirs. Some day I will try Morgan and the Believers, but I have a great Gaian game going - large world small oceans and everyone is on the came land mass. Fun!
Earwicker posted 06-07-99 08:52 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Earwicker  Click Here to Email Earwicker     
Well, I just finished my first game as Miriamax, and thanks HolyWarrior for your previous posts showing unwavering support for the faction and giving hints: I'm a Believer!

Fundamentalism made the most SE sense -- I noticed that scientific progress was only marginally improved with other choices, and not enough to offset that morale and probe bonus. Once I got enough bases, I made enough progress in labs to manage to get techs I needed.

The other suprise on SE was Green. The abundant life that was chasing around my colony pods left me alone a little bit, and I even managed to capture a few IotD's. Try it on for size.

I leaned hard on neighboring factions. Got techs and money through intimidating Morgan, PK's, and UoP. When they had given me everything, I moved in on their bases and got two stooges out of it.

The extra support and morale were key for going out pod-popping. Mind-worm money and artifacts! Network Nodes were useful only for linking artifacts. The support also helped quiet the Transcend Drone Mob with 1-1-1 cop units in addition to trance defenders

It was a great departure from my usual builder style and a nice change. Very fast game -- by MY 2200 or so I had complete control of the south, my two stooges giving me the occasional tech, and massing forces to go against Santiago and Skye (who had already knocked out Yang). Every so often I'd forget my strategy and say "this base needs a tree farm", then catch myself and get back to missile speeders.

Lots of fun not worrying about reputation or bullies when you can just throw your weight around.

SP's were Command Nexus, Citizens Defense (which I never needed but it kept it away from the others), and Xeno Dome to help my troops move. Around 2230 or so the choice was "build another SP (Neural Amp or Maritime Control) or mount final assault?" I opted for the latter, and my quickest conquest yet. By a long shot.

Next up: Miriamax to Transcendance.

Igor posted 06-07-99 09:40 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Igor  Click Here to Email Igor     
One really important (for me) question:
Which priorities do you set if Blind Research is On?
By default you have next techs one after another: Centauri Ecology, Applied Phisics, Industrial base, Mobility, Flexibility, Nonliniar Math, High Energy Chemistry, Loyalty, Biogenetic, Network Nodes, Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, Sintetic Fossil Fuel. There is a small variation for games, but only one 'Discover' tech between 10 other techs. Yeah, it's OK, but WHERE IS PLANETARY NETWORKS AND SofHB????? Real strength for Believers goes when they can use probes and immune troops...
I 'pray' to have UoP or PK on the borders, to eat them with all their techs and money...
But if I have this monster Yang and 'erratic' Colonel??? Fight, fight, and those evil researchers dont want listen you....
HolyWarrior posted 06-10-99 02:10 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for HolyWarrior  Click Here to Email HolyWarrior     
You should never have blind research on.
If you set blind research on, you might as well use autogovernors and well, just sit back and let the computer play for you.

I don't think so.

laurens posted 06-10-99 03:25 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for laurens  Click Here to Email laurens     
Blind research makes for a tougher game - forcing you to adapt to situations/breakthroughs that your scientists throw at you. Furthermore, it add more variants to each different game map and promotes the replayability value further.

One game map with so many islands around and yet you don't have doctrine flexibility?

Or when you thought your neutronium garrison looks too impressive and then find dear Miriam grinding at you with choppers?

Igor posted 06-10-99 05:59 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Igor  Click Here to Email Igor     
I see no sence to play with blind research off. Maybe, if you want easier life...
It is so nice when you research something from conquer and think about Mind-Machine Interface, but .... Chaos Gun, no Choppers.

In last game (I haven't finished it yet) with tech stagnation, random huge map has so much water that I sit on my island for more than 100 years (yeah, no Unity pods). Yeah, UoP and Gaia were stronger than me, I had wars with 4 factions and pact with 2.
When I started my first war, I used Fundy/Green, then Fundy/Green/Power. Only when I got HSA, I switched to Demo/Green/Power. My first project was The Planetary Datalinks, second Amplifier, and third HSA. I came up after getting commlinks to other factions.

I think that for True Believers only one strat works: pods, pods, pods, rovers, rovers, rovers, Resicling Tank-Rec Common, Command Center, more rovers. Unfortunately, on Transcend Huge map it is possible to build only 10 bases with no problems with bureaucracy....

I read some posts where people wrote about Believers as builder faction (Demo/Planned/Wealth, alocation to psyc). But Believers never can be faster than UoP in tech, and much slower compare to other factions. So, their usual victory is Total Conquer, or Supreme Leader. Their power in fanatic bonus, great support and best probes. Moreover, Demo/Planned combination on transcend is little boring coz you should build psych facilities, not fight. Slow growth (with Green) hurts seriously, but effic helps a little with drones.

Strenth of Believers is money. Compare to Hive, Believers can upgrade their troops to superior models very fast, in five-seven turns after completing prototype. Money help to buy bases (I dont buy units, rovers and planes clean field very fast). Money help to buy units and facilities in the heart of empire. Buy Punishment sphere in conquered bases and go to new troops.
Actually, TLB dont need any project to compete (remember UoP with HSA, VW and more, more ?).

If you have patience, play this faction on Huge map. It takes a lot of time, but it is a pleasure. Believers is a true war machine and unstoppable on Tiny-Standart map (if you dont play against other human ).

Igor posted 06-10-99 06:04 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Igor  Click Here to Email Igor     
Dowdc, I have higher chance for my teams when destroy structure on my choice, 67%, 56(?)%. Of course, they are Elite. I destroy only Psych facilities in such way- like drones in enemy's .
Igor posted 06-10-99 06:50 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Igor  Click Here to Email Igor     
P.S. Little more about last game. With no pods and tech stagnation I'm going to Transcend. Submissive Zak's working hard for techs and both we have tech for every 4 years (not so impressive, ~2300 M.Y.). Only one problem, he built PB, I'm in process. I hope, he is not so mad to launch it on me .
Last real small pain is Deirdre on other pole of planet. She has so good SP's, that I can't stop this war
Eris posted 06-10-99 09:32 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Eris  Click Here to Email Eris     
"You should never have blind research on.
If you set blind research on, you might as well use autogovernors and well, just sit back and let the computer play for you."

HW: On the contrary. Blind research is /far/ more realistic. That's why I play with it on. Ask anyone who does research for a living and while trying to find x found y, z, and triple-A. Think about how many common household products are the accidental side effect of space travel (and don't I wish more taxpayers and Congresscritters /would/ realize that). Many of the most famous inventions and scientific discoveries were /entirely/ accidental; in the same realm, but not at all what the person was going for.

Having the autogovernors and auto-units on /does/ constitute having the computer player for you, I'd agree with that.

ObOnTopic: I'm not a probe team user for the most part. I did two things to make the Believers viable (and in my first game with them they were /significantly/ ahead on tech after about 2250, btw).

1. Keep Spoils of War on. Even though I don't fight /much/, I do fight, and I know some of you are conq-oriented.

2. Start out by building as many cities as you can without starting to put them in lousy spots. Don't build /anything/ else but colony pods and scouts (and, once you can, terraformers) if you're on a big landmass, until it's covered. That extra population more than makes up for the penalty to research.

Actually, make nice with or go to flat-out war with the Gaians and the Morgans, too, and take their respective technologies (including, if you want to stay peaceful, by finding a way to get one of them to get you something and then trading it to the other for something you can trade to the first for something you can trade to the second, etc...). Morgans will give you stuff that's good for making more energy. Gaians will give you stuff that will let you make the most of your cities.

HolyWarrior posted 06-11-99 01:37 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for HolyWarrior  Click Here to Email HolyWarrior     
Realistic, Eris?
We're talking about a game where fighters can stay in the air for two years, and it takes up to 40 years for ships to circumnavigate the world.
We're talking about a game where it is impossible to fly over the poles.

Do you think the computer uses blind research? No. So I won't, either.
I'll say it again. Use blind research and autogovernors, you might as well grab a beer and let the computer play for you.

Eris posted 06-11-99 10:12 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Eris  Click Here to Email Eris     
I refuse to concede that using Blind Research is tantamount to letting the computer play for you (you still pick priorities, for one thing), and just because /other/ parts of the game have problem with realism is no reason to dismiss the choice of realism where possible. In fact, IMO, it's /more/ of a reason to do so. But you play any way you want. I just get phucking sick of people talking about how other people's game choices aren't REAL playing.

Eris (Now I'm going to go back to work, and let the forums be for a while, I think. Like, maybe the rest of the month.)

sandworm posted 06-11-99 12:11 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for sandworm  Click Here to Email sandworm     
I just started playing Miriam for the first time and am just finishing off the Hive, now that I have his command nexus project, its going to be a cakewalk. I conquered Morgan with 2-1-2 rovers VERY early, and he had to move to a nicer neighborhood. I've only had researched about four techs of my own, the rest came from my pactmate Diedre or were stolen from Yang. Deidre is next as she is amassing troops on my border and pestering me to change from planned to green (interesting in itself, as I don't have the required tech and she refused to give it to me). One thing I have noticed is other factions don't seem to be as intimidated by a large believer army as a similarly sized/tech Spartan one. They don't give in to my demands as often. Survivalists must be preferred over religious fanatics in SMAC.

I'm enjoying this so much, I may never get to try PK or Hive (Why didn't I listen to Holywarrior sooner?).

sandworm

I'm a Believer, I couldn't leave her if I tried.

HolyWarrior posted 06-13-99 09:29 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for HolyWarrior  Click Here to Email HolyWarrior     
Welcome to the light, Sandworm.

Some of you have had strong opinions on blind research--so here's some more for you.

Do or Die?
Spoils of War?

Spoils of War helps the conqueror factions, and I always play with it on.
Do or Die is always on. If I kill your faction dead, you will STAY dead!

MajiK6pt5 posted 06-13-99 10:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for MajiK6pt5  Click Here to Email MajiK6pt5     
Blind research is totally UNREALISTIC.
When the U.S. government were trying to develop nuclear weapons in WWII, would they have said to the scientists "Go ahead, here's $10,000,000,000. Discover some new weapon for me."? I think not.

Spoils of War are OK, but are too easy for the conquering factions. Do or Die should always be on, because otherwise it is totally pointless to wipe out someone just to have them come back several years later.

Krushala posted 07-03-99 02:33 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Krushala  Click Here to Email Krushala     
Just bringing it up

Ignore my post. I was just an unbeliever. They are excellent conquerers. And surprisingly good builders.

Zoetrope posted 07-06-99 06:48 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zoetrope  Click Here to Email Zoetrope     
True, Krushala, for the builder factions, war often interrupts development, but for TLB, the front is always so far from home that Miriam can build at leisure.

Igor asked about Huge maps: at Thinker, the Believers still win between 2200 and 2300, no sweat.

Their constant attacks keep everyone on battle stations, so the best research faction is still at level 6 weapons or below by final conquest or diplomatic victory - which is easy when there's little left of the enemy but a remote island or two.

Zoetrope posted 07-06-99 06:52 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zoetrope  Click Here to Email Zoetrope     
PS: I just have to emphasise that, as Miriam, I have great success sending my probe teams to sabotage whatever they choose, because that's usually the Perimeter Defences! Yay! Another enemy base falls. How many fell this turn?

The Believers' probe teams are fantastic: build a vast army of them, and you may be able to sabotage your enemies (ie, all the other factions) to oblivion.

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