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Author Topic:   Fundamentalism and Police State

Igor posted 05-19-99 07:12 AM ET
Hey!
I never saw in this forum that somebody use Fundamentalism when plays no Believers. I tried Fundy in several conquer games using Gaians and was surprised (even with HSA Fundy is useful). Police State/Green was little better than Fundy/Green for Research (~10%) but little worse for money (~10%). So, using elite probes and high morale units was very effective. Only one fault is that when base with size more than 7 is captured, it's difficult to held citizens content.
Does anybody play with Fundy at war time?
sandworm posted 05-19-99 10:05 AM ET
Actually, the fundy/research combo is pretty great, the negatives cancel out. Power/fund. is sometimes better for wartime, research be danmned until Yang is dead.
HolyWarrior posted 05-23-99 01:10 AM ET
Fundy is THE government to switch to in wartime. Police State's negative efficiency is too much.
But then, I always play with Spoils on.
Igor posted 05-23-99 09:49 AM ET
Hi, HolyWorrier.
Did you try game with Believers, stagnant research, Huge map (30-50% water), abundant worms, no unity pods, transcend, opponent more aggressive? Transcend victory. I m now in such game, tech leader, but not sure that I'll finish it on time.
I read that you prefer Believers. Which tactic do you use with them on Transcend difficalty?
High Priest posted 05-24-99 08:28 PM ET
Since in all my super war games, I play Yang, I never get the chance to play Fundy. At least not much. If you want a war game, go for Hive, Police State, Planned. Being Hive neutralizes inefficiency.
In peaceful games I will often switch to Fundimentalism in times of war(especially when fighting Miriam), along with(but not always at the same time) Power and/or Thought Control(preferably with the Vats). Police state is usually far too damaging with its efficiency rating, unless you choose Green.
Police State can be a better deal than fund., however, especially if you have the HSA, mostly because its biggest plus becomes very minor.
In this case, forget fundimentalism, and go for Police state, Power, Green. May have a tough time building those units, and the morale bonus isn't quite as high, but the super support, along with high police and morale ratings, should enable you to field large, well trained armies, garrisons, and have a way to quickly dispell of drones in conquered territory with police units.
Basically, fundimentalism is really only worth it in the beginning, with the Believers, or with a seriously backward faction. Any other situation you would be better with another social choice.
High Priest
It works well with Miriam, though!
Igor posted 05-25-99 03:40 AM ET
If you play as Miriam w/o Unity pods and with stagnant research, HSA is far far away.
Of course if she has it, switching to Demo/Planned/Power would be the best choice maybe Police/Green/Power), but it's impossible in such situation.
But Fundy is very useful when fighting against active probe teams users, especialy PK and Morgan. They cant buy more then 1-2 units for whole compaign.
P.S. I've been playing Hive since 3rd patch for a long time, but True Believers are more interesting for a war game, because they need switching SE, drone management and VERY active probe using. Moreover, they dont need ANY SP to finish game (maybe Human Genome and Planetary Transit, and Command Nexus, which is usualy gone when they get Loyalty)
Eris posted 05-25-99 09:24 AM ET
Green/Police State.
Really, this works out pretty well unless you have something else giving you -Eff.
I used Fundamentalism/Knowledge, too, when I didn't want any other choices.
Also, Fundamentalism is okay if you've got Spoils of War on and are planning on being in a lot of fights, but I'd rather use Police State, even if it seems to piss my neighbors off (that's okay... sometimes I /like/ them pissed off).
seth5454 posted 05-30-99 11:30 AM ET
i only use fundy when miriam is atleast twice as powerful as me and she literally has a gun to my head!
Igor posted 05-31-99 05:37 AM ET
For last several days I played only war games with Hive, Believers, Gaians and PK. In all cases (except Hive of course) I used combination Fundy/Green/(Power/Simple). In all games blind research was on, and random generated standart, huge or tiny map.
In all my games (except with Believers) all my 'backward' factions were leaders in all parameters (except wealth sometime).
As PK I used Fundy because Police State is aversion. Only in that game I had a problem with Miriam (she was second strongest faction and I think we were Beliveirs from different confessions :-)). Fundamentalism is really good choice for PK in such type of game. Probably, I didnt worry about science too much (50-50, blind research), and worked with different useless techs from my labs, but it was funny.
But I'm sure that Fundy is a best war choice for Deidre. I think that playing thinker and transcend little boring when you have HUGE bureaucracy. I HAVE IT ALWAYS. I have at least 3 times more bases then I can manage effectively and beraeucracy is a real pain with all these drones. But Deidre's +2 effic so helpful, that I agree to have small bases with slow growth, but in incredible amount.
Gaians' science is fast enough for war purposes, and switching to Conquer-Explore priorities after getting Secret of the HB makes Deidre a true war machine. One of next techs is Centauri Empathy, and then 'peaceful' Deidre completly equiped for war. Of course I start wars much earlier (just when contact face-to-face with other faction), but only when she can use Fundy, morale goes up very fast. Moreover, using trained troops and Power (if it is possible) gives her Commando or even Elite troops (if Command Centre was built). Personaly, I prefer to build Human Genome (more bases with less problems) and Command Nexus if it's possible, and sometime Empath Guild for infiltration (if play on huge map).
+2 probe helps when fighting with PK and (!!) Morgan. They are rich guys and like probe teams, but it's difficult even for them to buy more then 2 Commando-Elite rovers, and near impossible to buy a base.
Each my base builds only rovers, pods, recircling tank and recreation common. Several central base build also formers, which build roads for faster communications.
What do you think people abot all these things? If you like Police State, try Fundamentalism and, probably, you will be surprised.
P.S. Sorry for bad English.

Zoetrope posted 06-02-99 03:27 AM ET
In my latest game as Morgan I spent the latter half of the game as Fundamentalist, Green, Wealth.
Mostly my economy was at 100%, but I had the Planetary Datalinks (and tech trades) to keep me up in research.
When I built the Cloning Vats, I set Psych to 20%. The rapidly growing population (without Telepathic Matrix - everyone was too low in tech) doesn't worry Morgan as much as it would Zakharov, because Mr Money hits population limits before the drones become excessive, I didn't have Hab Dome, and I monitored each city, controlled growth rates, and produced empaths as needed, while feeding the problem bases with Sky Farms.
Earlier I was Police State; in those days I got the University and Hive to submit. But the Hive took umbrage at sth, so byebye to them.
When I became fundy/green/wealth, I eliminated the Spartans. The Gaians weren't as respectful as they should be, and combined with the Believers to resist me. I beat the Gaians down to a couple of small remote cities and they submitted.
The Believers had lots of planes (as usual), and regained some cities I'd captured, but after some toing and froing they decided they weren't going anywhere, and capitulated too.
Then I realised that you can't win with four in a team, so I kicked the Believers off mine, and they declared Vendetta, but I won automatically on the next turn, although the Believers still had several cities.
Zoetrope posted 06-02-99 03:33 AM ET
Oh yes, another point about Morgan in mid-game: while I was playing around in the Social Engineering screen, I noticed that beyond a certain stage (of planting forests?
of centauri tech?), Democratic/Green/Wealth and D/G/Knowledge both give (slightly) more money than Democratic/Free Market/Wealth.
Also, Fundy/Green/Wealth gave about twice as much research and twice as much money as Police/anything/Wealth. This makes sense when you remember that energy => research, and PS has an economy handicap.
Zoetrope posted 06-02-99 03:41 AM ET
On the topic of Support, one of the factors in my switch from PS to Fundy was the acquisition of Clean reactors, and the consequent replacement of my old military with clean units.
I don't play with Spoils of War (otherwise I would have got a lot of tech from dozens of captured bases); so having the Planetary Datalinks, and a submissive University whom I'd gifted some safe but outlying bases, were very handy.
Igor posted 06-02-99 08:21 AM ET
Yeah. Good points about Morgan..
I like to switch to Fundy/Green/Welth, playing Morgan, when got Planetary Economics and just made an attempt to corner Global Market. Twenty years behind PD with stock of Probes... :-)
I never play with 'Spoils of War' on, even as Sister. It brakes speed of research, but when you get planetary networks.. 2-3 probes and anyone around wants share their techs with u :-)
P.S. For Morgan Demo/Green gives +4 effic and it helps to get money from distant bases.
P.P.S. Free Market is +(13-18) energy (+fasilities bonuses) with all these negatives. Why I cant capture 'friendly' Sister's base with NO problem at home? :-)
Yes, yes, Punishment Sphere, yeah, but -50% research is worse then Fundy :-) And just imagine, what you don't have clean reactor...
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Author	Topic: Fundamentalism and Police State
Igor	posted 05-19-99 07:12 AM ET Hey! I never saw in this forum that somebody use Fundamentalism when plays no Believers. I tried Fundy in several conquer games using Gaians and was surprised (even with HSA Fundy is useful). Police State/Green was little better than Fundy/Green for Research (~10%) but little worse for money (~10%). So, using elite probes and high morale units was very effective. Only one fault is that when base with size more than 7 is captured, it's difficult to held citizens content. Does anybody play with Fundy at war time?
sandworm	posted 05-19-99 10:05 AM ET Actually, the fundy/research combo is pretty great, the negatives cancel out. Power/fund. is sometimes better for wartime, research be danmned until Yang is dead.
HolyWarrior	posted 05-23-99 01:10 AM ET Fundy is THE government to switch to in wartime. Police State's negative efficiency is too much. But then, I always play with Spoils on.
Igor	posted 05-23-99 09:49 AM ET Hi, HolyWorrier. Did you try game with Believers, stagnant research, Huge map (30-50% water), abundant worms, no unity pods, transcend, opponent more aggressive? Transcend victory. I m now in such game, tech leader, but not sure that I'll finish it on time. I read that you prefer Believers. Which tactic do you use with them on Transcend difficalty?
High Priest	posted 05-24-99 08:28 PM ET Since in all my super war games, I play Yang, I never get the chance to play Fundy. At least not much. If you want a war game, go for Hive, Police State, Planned. Being Hive neutralizes inefficiency. In peaceful games I will often switch to Fundimentalism in times of war(especially when fighting Miriam), along with(but not always at the same time) Power and/or Thought Control(preferably with the Vats). Police state is usually far too damaging with its efficiency rating, unless you choose Green. Police State can be a better deal than fund., however, especially if you have the HSA, mostly because its biggest plus becomes very minor. In this case, forget fundimentalism, and go for Police state, Power, Green. May have a tough time building those units, and the morale bonus isn't quite as high, but the super support, along with high police and morale ratings, should enable you to field large, well trained armies, garrisons, and have a way to quickly dispell of drones in conquered territory with police units. Basically, fundimentalism is really only worth it in the beginning, with the Believers, or with a seriously backward faction. Any other situation you would be better with another social choice. High Priest It works well with Miriam, though!
Igor	posted 05-25-99 03:40 AM ET If you play as Miriam w/o Unity pods and with stagnant research, HSA is far far away. Of course if she has it, switching to Demo/Planned/Power would be the best choice maybe Police/Green/Power), but it's impossible in such situation. But Fundy is very useful when fighting against active probe teams users, especialy PK and Morgan. They cant buy more then 1-2 units for whole compaign. P.S. I've been playing Hive since 3rd patch for a long time, but True Believers are more interesting for a war game, because they need switching SE, drone management and VERY active probe using. Moreover, they dont need ANY SP to finish game (maybe Human Genome and Planetary Transit, and Command Nexus, which is usualy gone when they get Loyalty)
Eris	posted 05-25-99 09:24 AM ET Green/Police State. Really, this works out pretty well unless you have something else giving you -Eff. I used Fundamentalism/Knowledge, too, when I didn't want any other choices. Also, Fundamentalism is okay if you've got Spoils of War on and are planning on being in a lot of fights, but I'd rather use Police State, even if it seems to piss my neighbors off (that's okay... sometimes I /like/ them pissed off).
seth5454	posted 05-30-99 11:30 AM ET i only use fundy when miriam is atleast twice as powerful as me and she literally has a gun to my head!
Igor	posted 05-31-99 05:37 AM ET For last several days I played only war games with Hive, Believers, Gaians and PK. In all cases (except Hive of course) I used combination Fundy/Green/(Power/Simple). In all games blind research was on, and random generated standart, huge or tiny map. In all my games (except with Believers) all my 'backward' factions were leaders in all parameters (except wealth sometime). As PK I used Fundy because Police State is aversion. Only in that game I had a problem with Miriam (she was second strongest faction and I think we were Beliveirs from different confessions :-)). Fundamentalism is really good choice for PK in such type of game. Probably, I didnt worry about science too much (50-50, blind research), and worked with different useless techs from my labs, but it was funny. But I'm sure that Fundy is a best war choice for Deidre. I think that playing thinker and transcend little boring when you have HUGE bureaucracy. I HAVE IT ALWAYS. I have at least 3 times more bases then I can manage effectively and beraeucracy is a real pain with all these drones. But Deidre's +2 effic so helpful, that I agree to have small bases with slow growth, but in incredible amount. Gaians' science is fast enough for war purposes, and switching to Conquer-Explore priorities after getting Secret of the HB makes Deidre a true war machine. One of next techs is Centauri Empathy, and then 'peaceful' Deidre completly equiped for war. Of course I start wars much earlier (just when contact face-to-face with other faction), but only when she can use Fundy, morale goes up very fast. Moreover, using trained troops and Power (if it is possible) gives her Commando or even Elite troops (if Command Centre was built). Personaly, I prefer to build Human Genome (more bases with less problems) and Command Nexus if it's possible, and sometime Empath Guild for infiltration (if play on huge map). +2 probe helps when fighting with PK and (!!) Morgan. They are rich guys and like probe teams, but it's difficult even for them to buy more then 2 Commando-Elite rovers, and near impossible to buy a base. Each my base builds only rovers, pods, recircling tank and recreation common. Several central base build also formers, which build roads for faster communications. What do you think people abot all these things? If you like Police State, try Fundamentalism and, probably, you will be surprised. P.S. Sorry for bad English.
Zoetrope	posted 06-02-99 03:27 AM ET In my latest game as Morgan I spent the latter half of the game as Fundamentalist, Green, Wealth. Mostly my economy was at 100%, but I had the Planetary Datalinks (and tech trades) to keep me up in research. When I built the Cloning Vats, I set Psych to 20%. The rapidly growing population (without Telepathic Matrix - everyone was too low in tech) doesn't worry Morgan as much as it would Zakharov, because Mr Money hits population limits before the drones become excessive, I didn't have Hab Dome, and I monitored each city, controlled growth rates, and produced empaths as needed, while feeding the problem bases with Sky Farms. Earlier I was Police State; in those days I got the University and Hive to submit. But the Hive took umbrage at sth, so byebye to them. When I became fundy/green/wealth, I eliminated the Spartans. The Gaians weren't as respectful as they should be, and combined with the Believers to resist me. I beat the Gaians down to a couple of small remote cities and they submitted. The Believers had lots of planes (as usual), and regained some cities I'd captured, but after some toing and froing they decided they weren't going anywhere, and capitulated too. Then I realised that you can't win with four in a team, so I kicked the Believers off mine, and they declared Vendetta, but I won automatically on the next turn, although the Believers still had several cities.
Zoetrope	posted 06-02-99 03:33 AM ET Oh yes, another point about Morgan in mid-game: while I was playing around in the Social Engineering screen, I noticed that beyond a certain stage (of planting forests? of centauri tech?), Democratic/Green/Wealth and D/G/Knowledge both give (slightly) more money than Democratic/Free Market/Wealth. Also, Fundy/Green/Wealth gave about twice as much research and twice as much money as Police/anything/Wealth. This makes sense when you remember that energy => research, and PS has an economy handicap.
Zoetrope	posted 06-02-99 03:41 AM ET On the topic of Support, one of the factors in my switch from PS to Fundy was the acquisition of Clean reactors, and the consequent replacement of my old military with clean units. I don't play with Spoils of War (otherwise I would have got a lot of tech from dozens of captured bases); so having the Planetary Datalinks, and a submissive University whom I'd gifted some safe but outlying bases, were very handy.
Igor	posted 06-02-99 08:21 AM ET Yeah. Good points about Morgan.. I like to switch to Fundy/Green/Welth, playing Morgan, when got Planetary Economics and just made an attempt to corner Global Market. Twenty years behind PD with stock of Probes... :-) I never play with 'Spoils of War' on, even as Sister. It brakes speed of research, but when you get planetary networks.. 2-3 probes and anyone around wants share their techs with u :-) P.S. For Morgan Demo/Green gives +4 effic and it helps to get money from distant bases. P.P.S. Free Market is +(13-18) energy (+fasilities bonuses) with all these negatives. Why I cant capture 'friendly' Sister's base with NO problem at home? :-) Yes, yes, Punishment Sphere, yeah, but -50% research is worse then Fundy :-) And just imagine, what you don't have clean reactor...