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Author Topic:   A general disucussion of needlejets
eNo posted 05-18-99 06:52 PM ET   Click Here to See the Profile for eNo   Click Here to Email eNo  
I basically use this unit for defensive purposes. I keep them along my border and take out anything within range. Good for patrolling too. Have some trouble with AAA units though.
drunkenkatori posted 05-18-99 10:40 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for drunkenkatori    
On offence, you can take out sensors and roads/tubes to cities you want to conquer.
Cutting roads can be key if you expend all your movement clearing a city, thus leaving a window when your opponent can rush in a garrison.
eborg posted 05-19-99 07:09 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for eborg    
What ? You only use needlejets for defence ?
Why not use them for the offence as well ?
Situation: You have cleaned your own continent and now move on to the next. You use a tranport ship to get a few troops over and conquer a small base with not much defence (or buy it with a probe team). Fine. Now the problem arises: you enemy can easily move all the land based units to your fresh aquisition and attack. While you have to get in the reinforcements by ship! See the big advantage for your enemy ?
That is, of course, unless you can fly hordes of needlejets to that new base and use them to fend off the enemy! And because the AI doesn't like Anti-Aircraft weaponry, your planes have high survivances rates!
And, since needlejets have a much larger range than copters, they will probably be be the only reinforcements that you can bring in (fast).
Actually, needlejets make such a big difference to the game that some people in this forum make a point of getting this tech as early as possible.
Another thing: think of sea-bases. It's a nice thing to clear them off defenders and also take over bases with few ships ...
Earwicker posted 05-19-99 07:55 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Earwicker  Click Here to Email Earwicker     
Doctrine: Air Power is an important part of my complete breakfast. But I have noticed that needlejets are most in need of morale bonuses to make them very effective (and for them not to get killed while attacking). Always build an aerospace complex in bases that will be cranking out these units. Also, using a ship or artillery attack to soften up the target is a worthwhile combo, especially when attackiung with choppers.

And I agree completely with eborg: use the mobility of needlejets to your advantage. Once you've established control at the new base, the jets can take out extraneous roads, making your job of protecting against probes and counterattacks that much simpler. They can also destroy sensors at the next target to reducing its defense, and pick off probes and rovers coming to say hello.

Fortunately, the AI rarely invests in interceptor planes -- Miriam or Yang will have 10 jets hanging out in one city with not an interceptor among them?! Their mistake.

Gixxer posted 05-19-99 09:56 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Gixxer  Click Here to Email Gixxer     
I'm going to have to contradict you, Earwicker. Diedre so far has built several interceptor's to counter my invasion.

Always attack from the flank with needlejets. The enemy ground units have to obey thier zone-of-control rules. This prevents reinforcements or regarrisoning (is that a word?) a freshly emptied base. Also, I take the long way to attack. The deep radar grants sometimes valuable intelligence. They also work nicely for cloaking friendlies because they cannot be attacked by units without "Air superiority." I will park one next to a base where I am setting up my one move infantry.

Also, did you ever notice that the AI will build many planes and they will usually stick together. I'll create a screen or a "V" blocking the route to their nearest base with 3 or four units and they usually have trouble finding the way home. They won't fly around the screen, nor will they attack. The AI's only priority is getting back to refuel. I've seen a dozen or more needlejets go down in flames right in front of me.

Good point on the sensor bombing. Sometimes a plane is the only unit that can get to sensors on the far side of a base.

sandals posted 05-19-99 12:43 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for sandals    
It has been suggested that 1-1-? Needlejets are a cheap way to bomb improvements.
Plato90s posted 05-19-99 01:12 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Plato90s    
Once you start using airpower extensively, the AI will develop a strong taste for AAA-armed units. What usually happens is you hit a few bases with your needlejets. The AI will design new units with AAA in them, and shortly thereafter, every other unit is AAA.
sinober posted 05-19-99 02:44 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for sinober  Click Here to Email sinober     
eborg wrote: "You only use needlejets for defence ? Why not use them for the offence as well ?
..... That is, of course, unless you can fly hordes of needlejets to that new base and use them to fend off the enemy!"

defence or offence?

Plato90s posted 05-19-99 03:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Plato90s    
The best defense is a good offense.

Use the extended mobility of needlejets to hit the enemy 5-6 squares back from the battleline. Hit their units in transit. Destroy roads/sensor towers. Clog up their approach lanes with your jets' ZOCs.

eNo posted 05-19-99 08:32 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for eNo  Click Here to Email eNo     
Is there any way to deal with the AAA threat? I don't use needlejets for offence because I usually just grow into enemy territory instead on conquering it.
Plato90s posted 05-19-99 09:30 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Plato90s    
There is no real way to deal with AAA units except by main force.

In the open, needlejets usually win even against AAA units.

Cities is where the problem are. With Aerospace Complex, those AAA units become a major problem. At that point, you really have to shift to land assault and just use air units to hit enemy units caught in the open.

sdanic posted 05-20-99 02:18 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for sdanic    
Is there a way for a peaceloving civ to maintain needlejets on defense?

I was playing democracy, free market, knowledge and discovered that my airplanes gave me two peace (pacifism) symbols even when they were in bases.

I wanted to keep planes on alert in my bases so they would automatically attack enemies on sight. I gave up on them because of the pacifism problem.

Any suggestions?

jimmytrick posted 05-20-99 02:47 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for jimmytrick  Click Here to Email jimmytrick     
Try air to air units. I think this works, but as I never play Free Market, I am not certain.

StargazerBC posted 05-20-99 08:48 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for StargazerBC    
Needlejets are great for patrolling, esp. with Radar. Offensively, Heliocopters are a much better choice for taking out and softing targets for ground attacks (but it's a longer wait of course). Needlejets are fairly good for active air defense . Also, I use two needlejets to shuffle back and forth (and est. a Zone of Control) while my sea former takes out the land bridge (along with 10-20 land units ::grins: . Ever since armor on Needlejets 3x (or 2x?) the cost, it's not viable to use needlejets to attack when the AI can take you down once they get air superiority.
Earwicker posted 05-20-99 08:54 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Earwicker  Click Here to Email Earwicker     
Correct call, jimytrick. Interceptor air units (jets or copters) don't cause unhappiness in FM. Of course, these are still very effective for killing approaching Probes and unarmored Rovers, and for sensor/ road destruction.

The stationing of AAA units in bases with an coupled with Aerospace Complex calls for an attack with multiple kinds of units. If you have some worms running around at the same time Rovers and needlejets are going after the cities, it won't be so easy for the AI to choose a single course of action (i.e., Must Build AAA and Aerospace). Bombardment units are also very useful as part of this tactic, for two reasons: it's one more kind of unit the AI must build to defend against (trance or ECM or AAA or battery!?!), and the batteries will soften up the folks inside to help out your other attackers.

Last, you can use Probes to knock out the Aerospace Complexes. Those rarely survive your capture of the base, anyway.

jhankla posted 05-20-99 07:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for jhankla  Click Here to Email jhankla     
I found that I had to conquer a landmass clear across the board or Yang would have gotten too powerful. Having Yang is a neighbor is bad, having him far away can be worse, he wiped out Gaian's and Miriam and had the second biggest faction next to my own. Naturally the AI has him demand half my energy because I'm using the Democratic SocEng. SO? I put sea bases every 24 squares away while I got my ships loaded with equimpent. DIdn't work, he had ton'o'troops and more ships. I backtracked down the autosave change back to #20, and replayed using a different tactic. NEEDLEJET TRANSPORT! Lots faster than ships!
THere only limitation was 1 cargo, but with 10 of them I got a huge army to the seabase near him and only used cruiser transports to land and take the first city. I had attack needlejets land in the city and take out forces as Yang brought them to bare! It worked where no other tactic did! I think I call it the Airline Senario.
laurens posted 05-21-99 12:34 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for laurens  Click Here to Email laurens     
You don't like Copters? All thks to the Hive/Believers for showing me their potential. Being first of the air chassis types, they are starter packages, naturally. Their limited range is easily compensated by their multiple attacks, making them the deadliest units apart from the busters of course. Gravships come too late into the game and I suppose you might want them to play a role in terraforming when changing all the air units into grav units prove to be too costly your huge empire.
laurens posted 05-21-99 12:38 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for laurens  Click Here to Email laurens     
You don't like Copters? All thks to the Hive/Believers for showing me their potential. Needlejets: Being first of the air chassis types, they are starter packages, naturally. For copters, their limited range is easily compensated by their multiple attacks, making them the deadliest units apart from the busters of course. Gravships come too late into the game and I suppose you might want them to play a role in terraforming when changing all the air units into grav units prove to be too costly your huge empire.
laurens posted 05-21-99 02:31 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for laurens  Click Here to Email laurens     
Copters? The Hive/Believers taught me well on the use of this deadliest unit, apart from the busters of course. Needlejets, the first of the air chassis, are starter packages. The copters' limited range can easily be compensated by their multiple attacks, making up a formidable attack/defense force.
The gravships came too late into the game, by which time you might only be interested in making use of them as terraformers. Similarly, you might not want to spend so much money in changing the other airborne units into the gravs.
eNo posted 05-21-99 09:51 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for eNo  Click Here to Email eNo     
What the happened to those last three posts?

Is it possible to make an Artilerry Needlejet?

Cameleon posted 05-21-99 09:54 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Cameleon  Click Here to Email Cameleon     
Agreed, gravships are generally too late to be of any military use. But if you still have the opportunity to use them in a war, do so! They have an incredible range, and they are the only air units able to take a city (apart from locusts). This alone makes the the perfect unit. But on top, their also dirt cheap.

But again, they always come to late in the game to be of any military use...

doritokid posted 05-21-99 04:02 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for doritokid  Click Here to Email doritokid     
Just a quick thought on the subject, when I'm going a-conquering with jets, one of my favorite strategies is to build a bunch(say 6) of trained needle jets with air superiority, then march one or two units from base to base...why destroy roads and improvements, after all, they get your troups from town to town much quicker, plus the trained planes coupled with air superiority generally take out both computer and/or human opponents who in general build significantly weaker troups in order to pump them out quicker
eNo posted 05-21-99 04:59 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for eNo  Click Here to Email eNo     
I just found out that you cannot make Artillery Needlejets or for that matter an Artillery air unit. Oh well.

doritokid, basically what I did when I tied a needlejet attack. You have any more pointers on attacking with jets?

Porkmonger posted 05-21-99 11:09 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Porkmonger    
First, a question. Could someone provide a somewhat detailed explanation of why copters are good? Their ability to theoretically surpass the range of jets is kinda hampered by their health loss problem. That, and you need Air Power before you can get helicopters.
And conventional missiles, too. They're not much better than jets and are only one-use.

Second, my needlejet techniques are to spread them out when attacking a base. Damaged ones can be used to bomb sensors (which are annoying). Spreading them out both prevents collateral damage if they have interceptors and prevents them from bringing more troops in to defend. Try and have a base with an aerospace complex nearby, since repairing them becomes a priority if you're invading.

If you have problems with the enemy building AAA, attack them with other units. Mind worms will make them build trance/empath and attackign with boats/artillery usually makes them try and build artillery. You can also try using a probe team to take out their aerospace complex or perimeter defense.

In general, the best attacks are ones of combined arms - land, sea, and air. If you use different kinds of specialists you can break through defenses that would hamper other kinds. Use worms or speeders to take out AAA units and jets to take out ecm/trance units.

Plato90s posted 05-22-99 01:12 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Plato90s    
The main advantage of a copter - multiple attacks. A needlejet attacks once per turn. A copter can attack as long as it has movement points left, much like a land unit. That's why I also prefer to use copters as air-defense units. It's darn annoying when Miriam sends about 4-5 of her wimpy little missle needlejets to hit my formers. I'd have to use 5 needlejets to take them all out in one turn, or I can use 1 SAM-copter.

Also, I have never observed air units to take collateral damage. When working through a stack of needlejets, my attacking SAM units never do any collateral damage.

When attacking an enemy, if you have SAM-needlejets to cover your own, you should concentrate for protection. If you are sure there are no SAM units nearby, then spread out to use the jets' ZOCs to hamper enemy troop movement.

Datalink posted 05-23-99 03:15 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Datalink  Click Here to Email Datalink     
The copter is one of my favorite units!!
Here is the reason why.

Multiple attacks rule!! As soon as i get the tech' to build them, i do so. This is my main conquering unit. I send one or two in to the city i wish to take over, and empty it of units with multipy attacks. The short range is not significant,for as soon as they have one move left, i tell them to wait. Then when i take the city, they can enter and re-fule. This works great with drop-infantry two. Send in copters, clear city, drop in. I have conquered so many factions with just one drop pod infantry and two copters! Of course, having a good weapon is a great help. Copters would have to be my favorite unit when i am on the move.

Datalink

Gungho posted 05-23-99 03:35 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Gungho    
I've got to agree - choppers rule!
The fact that needlejets only attack once really gets me. They are however useful in the early game before choppers become available.
On the subject - why can gravships only attack once? This just does not make sense.
eNo posted 05-24-99 11:44 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for eNo  Click Here to Email eNo     
I think that was play-balancing.
GaryD posted 05-24-99 12:09 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for GaryD    
Choppers can be OK, but I think people tend to over-rate them. Multiple attack is all very well, but if your opponent has a decent defence then what is the point of a second attack when the chopper is in the red zone ? Best bet is to go home for repair.

Tactics against AAA ? I tend to hit with the air force until the AI is building expensive AAA like there is no tomorrow, and then hit them hard with the ground troops. Doesn't everyone ?

Darkstar posted 05-24-99 02:47 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Darkstar  Click Here to Email Darkstar     
Choppers rule. End of story.

While they might get worn down to their red hit zone from assaulting CITIES, I rarely find that a problem when dealing with the initial rush of land units that head for your beachhead city. A couple of choppers to fly across the killing fields and quasinart those land units is an incredibly effective Offensive Defense strike.

Needlejets are nice to reach out and raid my next targets for takeover, as well as general harassment (attacking, bombing enhancments, etc). When the computer becomes irritating with Interceptors, I make a few Top Weapon-Top Armor-Jets with Air Superiority and Clean (if available). These guys fly cover, like long range Ally fighters did for the Ally bombers in WWII. They park over bombing/attack square (when interceptors are about), then the attacking bomber attacks. Stacking all the regular jets with an armed and armored interceptor gives me a defender that regularly survives two attacks from the computer air defensive actions. Bombers fly home and refuel. Interceptor rebuilds its hits. Its twin unit does the same for the next sortie. I give them Air Superiority to shoot down those AI air units moving around in the target's lines.

The computer builds its units with a STRONG eye on what you build. If you only build a few jets because they survive well in your game, it won't build AAA units until you knock the snot out of its cities AND its the cheapest defender in its design choices or you have CONSISTANTLY knocked the snot out of that city (or neighbors) with Air units. If you are rolling off LOTS of Air units, it will pre-emptively build AAA units. If you build lots of rovers, it will build ECM forces for the same reasons (remember though... ECM is FREE to units that Defense out rank its weapons, so it builds more of these than anything else. Free ability). Lots of Worms in your build ques, and the computer will build lots of Trance.

I find Conv. Missiles useful to bomb those core cities of my LARGE (AI) opponents that are trying to build Secret Projects I want, or Planet Busters. The Computer will automatically switch production to a defender if you get rid of the defenders in a city. When a sustained war effort going on, most inner core cities won't have but a couple of units as defenders, plus transients going to the front. This allows me to make sure that I don't loose a city or two to Planet Busters before I can discover Orbital Defense pods. Of course, you need to know what he is building WHERE to do this, but that is what Probe teams, Empath project, and/or Governorship is for.

-Darkstar

Series II posted 05-25-99 01:20 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Series II    
I agree that choppers rule. I build 1-2 needle jets in about 1/2 of my games. I find choppers a lot better and just 1 tech away from Needle Jets.

Also, to get around the AI building units specifically against my units I usually build a chopper in most every city once I get the prototype done. Once complete I have a big army and go to war before the AI can react.

Choppers and drop troops are IMHO the best combo.

Krushala posted 07-03-99 02:17 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Krushala  Click Here to Email Krushala     
Just bringing this thread up.

Some good advice here. Some of it is conflicting, it depends on your playing style. As the thread suggests Doctrine: Air Power is one of the most important techs of the game.

master k posted 07-07-99 06:25 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for master k  Click Here to Email master k     
But as posted in another thread: they are too powerful, so i never build them.

master k

p.s.: but i love my airforce

laurens posted 07-07-99 08:33 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for laurens  Click Here to Email laurens     
Last time posted here I was juz a 1 week aquaintance with SMAC

Like to add to series II's fav combo design:

X Copters / Drop AAA squads.

Gustav posted 07-11-99 09:55 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Gustav  Click Here to Email Gustav     
Hey, I'm not too great at this game, but I'm the type that, early...or middle...or late in the game, likes to just "punish" my vendeta-ers rather than go through the annoyance of occupying their cities. Note, I don't play on a high level, obviously. Anyway, I like to use large air-fleets to just isolate their cities, destroy improvements, and put fighters on nutrient/mineral bonuses...just generally be an annoyance. One thing I really like is to take the water bases they set up right outside the continent and use them as bases of attack. Oh well, I guess I'll have to be a lot more aggresive once I start playing on the hardest levels...or if I want to get half-decent scores. Anyway, just figured I'd give my two-pence.
ZyXEL posted 07-12-99 02:58 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ZyXEL  Click Here to Email ZyXEL     
Doctorine:Air Power is THE most important tech in the game. When I get it, no one is near to me.

Yes, choppers rules. They multiple attack saved me many times, both in offence and defence. I usually build massive air force (of choppers, naturaly), and few dropsomethings, as long it's land unit. I move my force to the enemy base, but destroy only sensors. The whole idea is to take out a base in SINGLE turn. Before that I soft him with probe teams, so I can build adequate attack force.
Anyway, I destroy ONLY sensors, and take base using chopper's multiple attack ability, and when defence is destroyed, I use dropsomething to take the base. Then I get choppers into the base for refuel.
Later in the game for land units I use only hovertanks.
The beauty of this tactic is that, if I see that I will loose (and I never do), the most of my choppers can retreat to the homebase, no matter of fuel quantity. In home base there is a nice Aerospace complex waiting for them.

So, conclusion: Needlejets are cool, but useless. I build few while I wait for the choppers, the rulers of Alpha Centaury skye. Period.

�oki

ZyXEL posted 07-12-99 02:59 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ZyXEL  Click Here to Email ZyXEL     
Doctorine:Air Power is THE most important tech in the game. When I get it, no one is near to me.

Yes, choppers rules. They multiple attack saved me many times, both in offence and defence. I usually build massive air force (of choppers, naturaly), and few dropsomethings, as long it's land unit. I move my force to the enemy base, but destroy only sensors. The whole idea is to take out a base in SINGLE turn. Before that I soft him with probe teams, so I can build adequate attack force.
Anyway, I destroy ONLY sensors, and take base using chopper's multiple attack ability, and when defence is destroyed, I use dropsomething to take the base. Then I get choppers into the base for refuel.
Later in the game for land units I use only hovertanks.
The beauty of this tactic is that, if I see that I will loose (and I never do), the most of my choppers can retreat to the homebase, no matter of fuel quantity. In home base there is a nice Aerospace complex waiting for them.

So, conclusion: Needlejets are cool, but useless. I build few while I wait for the choppers, the rulers of Alpha Centaury skye. Period.

�oki

ZyXEL posted 07-12-99 03:00 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ZyXEL  Click Here to Email ZyXEL     
Again this double posts. Why is this happening ?

Gustav: Where are you from ?

�oki

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