posted 05-08-99 05:37 PM ET         

I'm going to have to agree with Priest on all points. Hive is virtually the only faction that can accomplish both builder and conquerer strategies effectively, or mix the two of them together.

posted 05-09-99 03:04 AM ET            

So the tally so far is:

posted 05-09-99 08:26 AM ET         

Sparta - I just love the entire mindset associated with this lot. Nothing like diplomacy with a big stick. That morale bonus makes for leathal early game attacks and then lethal mid game mind worms.

Morgan - completely different from the above. Just love buying up entire continents with waves of probe team

Oh well just trust me to choose the least popular factions.

Gaians-- 3
UoP-- 3
Hive-- 2
PKs-- 1
Believers-- 1
Spartans-- 1.5
Morgan-- 0.5

posted 05-09-99 01:31 PM ET            

That makes it ...

posted 05-09-99 07:48 PM ET            

In other words, become number 1 and fend off any attempt to oust you.

posted 05-09-99 09:35 PM ET            

UoP .75 vote (Transcendance; -.25 vote due to difficulties if you don't get Hunter-Seeker)
Pk .75 vote (Great Faction for less experienced players)
Morgan .75 Vote (+1 Ecomony makes +2 Ecomony easier to get; -.5 Vote due to Hab problems; .25 vote due to me playing him now on Transcend level)
Gaians .5 vote (just because)
Spartans .5 vote (due to kicking butt on Tiny Maps)
Hive abstain (haven't played with them much; don't like his style)
Believers -# Vote (-2 Research killer for me; Don't use much Probes; Most annoying faction)

posted 05-09-99 10:10 PM ET         

Yes, you and your capitalist minions may claim to be the supporters of 'humanism' but I know the truth, you are truly bureacrats who are wretched, and have grown fat off the labor of the people and cackle at their suffering.

That is why I, as a proud member of the Human Hive, charter or no, shall see to it that you and your slave-drivers shall be driven to destruction!

posted 05-09-99 10:19 PM ET         

The population and talent benefits from this faction far outweigh the negative efficiency. It always seems to take an eternity to get to Super Tensile Solids, the tech that lets you build Habitation Domes and expand your city populations beyond size 14. I like large bases for energy and production purposes, and the PK's win in this area. The double votes that they get are also a big plus - it never hurts to be planetary governor early on.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to rail against the UoP. In my games (not playing as UoP), it always seems that I lag behind at least two other factions in technology until about 2320 or so, if I keep to myself and don't steal too much. It isn't until then that my infrastructure is developed enough to compete with the AI's built-in research cheating. As the UoP, though, this research lag isn't as pronounced, and I think I know why. The computer cheats. It takes fewer research points at any time for a computer opponent to discover a new tech than it does for a human. If the computer opponent also has the research benefits of the UoP, then early research is going to boom for that faction. But the computer players can't handle infrastructure well, so late in the game, research for the AI UoP may not be as fast as for a human player. Playing as another faction at war with the UoP has distinct advantages, as long as they don't get Hunter-Seeker - you can just steal those technologies that come in fast and early.

Count so far, not including Koshko's illicit voting:

Uop-- 5
Gaians-- 3
Hive-- 3
Spartans-- 2.5
Believers-- 1
PKs-- 3
Morgan-- 0.5

posted 05-09-99 10:40 PM ET         

All of the benefits that other factions have can eventually be swamped under with enough technology. That -2 probe won't mean a thing once you have the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm and Drone rioting is a fact of life at Transcend level anyways.

posted 05-10-99 01:23 AM ET         

The Gaians were my first game, using Quick Start. No one else seems to have mentioned this, but the in-game tutorials are really excellent. I was just going to check out the graphics, but I got sucked in and was up all night thanks to the clear and helpful tutorials. Anyway, Deirdre was fun but seemed, I don't know, too granola, so next I chose the Hive.

I don't think I played the Hive right. I think Smeagol is onto something by playing Miriam without tech; I'll bet the game's more fun if you role-play the factions, and try to behave only as they might. I thought of that in my most recent game, as Miriam, but didn't have the guts to stick with it. If I played the Hive again, I'd role-play it more, and do atrocities all over the place. As it was, I played as myself, and didn't even nerve staple anyone. Another wrinkle to this approach would be to choose Social Engineering by philosophy, not by game advantage, and stick with it through thick or thin. Might make things more interesting!

Anyway, I won as the Hive and all, but it wasn't too thrilling, cuz it seemed 'inevitable,' to use Smeagol's word.

I was into Morgan for awhile, but I found it really hard to get to that economic victory, it really tired me out. I actually played one game where I didn't win any victory! I didn't know about the mandatory retirement until the message popped up, '20 years left'! I won on score, but nothing else. My next game I played Morgan also. Had wars all the time, draining my money, it got on my nerves. I notice when the computer plays Morgan a) it usually gets a continent or an island all to itself, so b) it never goes to war with anyone, just sits there and rakes in dough. That's what I'd wanted to do, but as usual I got placed right next to 2 other factions. This was also the first game I'd played on a HUGE map, which might explain why it was so tiring. By mid-game, through reading these forums, I'd learned about the 'use supply transports on mines' trick, and I think that really makes the difference in Morgan's small cities. Also, the save-able build queues make starting up a new city, or any kind of mass-management, MUCH easier. But I just BARELY won an economic victory, and was a bit cheesed that it didn't have a movie. So I'm sore on Morgan now.

BTW, does it bother anyone else that, while there are supposedly four win conditions, you essentially have to be in a position to win a conquest victory to win any of the others? I mean, it seems nigh-impossible to win economic, diplomatic, or technological if you're not THE dominant force on the map, which makes any kind of 'come from behind' strategy impossible, which makes the gameplay a little too similar each time.

Anyway, as I said, right now I'm playing Miriam. I chose her 'cuz everybody hates her--there's a perverse streak in me--and I'm having fun. I chose to play on the small Map of Planet, which may have something to do with it as well--it's a very nice Map, well customized. The place names all over really add to the role-playing, and the continents are laid out in very interesting strategical ways. It seems like a map with a lot of possibilities, I kind of want to play a lot of games on it, to learn it well. And I think I prefer a small map--the endgame on a large map takes FOREVER. It's kind of a shame that you've usually won before any of the more advanced techs come into play, but I'll take that as a trade-off for having to do less tedious drone-monitoring.

Although, come to think of it, if I stop being a weenie and play on one of the higher levels, having a huge map might just make one of the computer opponents have a chance to become a challenging enemy. Usually, by # of bases alone, it's clear that my victory is just a matter of time.

But back to Miriam. I've been role-playing her some, keeping a log of the game, and I'm having fun pretending to be a self-righteous servant of the Lord's Will. Every time i agree to a Truce I whisper "heathen," under my breath. The same qualities that make her annoying as an NPC, make her kind of fun to play. And, yeah, her morale bonus kicks @$$!

posted 05-10-99 10:45 AM ET            

You have gotten me confused with CEO Morgan. Wouldn't touch Free Market with a barge pole. It's the corporates who dump on the common man. My economics starts off as Planned then moves to Green when the eco damage is too much.

'Cackle at their suffering'. Yeah, right. The people cackle at my suffering as I have to deal with their representatives.

Why don't you give your email address?

posted 05-10-99 01:01 PM ET         

Believe that makes it

posted 05-11-99 01:15 AM ET            

BELIEVERS!

posted 05-11-99 12:31 PM ET         

UoP: 6
Gaians: 4
Hive: 4
Spartans: 3.5
Believers: 3
PKs: 3
Morgans: 1.5

posted 05-11-99 06:53 PM ET            

The Morgans blow cause all they have is a economy bonus and get planet pissed off alot. I mean so what if you get a little extra money just build a few sea bases and make kelp/tidal harnesses (3food/3energy per square).

The believers ehh. They have a good attack advantage but will have to exploit that advantage to get techs, spoils of war + trade for it if a faction really ph33rs you or probe em.

The hive, peacekeepers, and spartans also have nice advantages so thier isn't any thing wrong witht hem in my opinion (accept the hive as some one said before CAMI BASTARDS!).

posted 05-11-99 07:15 PM ET         

UoP:6
Gaians: 5
Hive: 4
Spartans: 3.5
PKs: 3
Morgans: 2.5
Believers: 2

posted 05-12-99 09:44 PM ET         

Remember, you can change your vote. Just say when you voted, and for whom.

posted 05-14-99 09:44 AM ET            

PK's are the best. Reason = Flexibility
IF your up against Hive out-tech em, Uop Probe them, Believers=out tech and out develop them, Spartians out number them.

Its not only that they are so flexible but also that they have no apparent disadvantages and some very apparent advantages. Population is the key of the game, Civ 2, SMAC virtually all empire strategy games. The bigger your population the more it grows, the more minerals it brings in and the more energy you get. This would translate to an even larger population (meanin exponential growth) more minerals to out build but also to out tech...think of facilities, and also more energy to out tech and also out economize the enemy. It this exponential growth that the Pk's depend on. Well this is definately helped along by the increased hab bonus. Not only that but they also have a very stable population.

NOW all you people who voted UoP think how hard it is on Transcend for UoP..its virtually impossible. For PK's its easy to keep a stable population. No need to take workers off the land which means that your faction out grows all.

Now diplomaticaly they are truly awesome. Being Governor rocks. You get more energy (move over Morgan) but also you gain free spys. Now that rocks.

Basically said PK's are the overall development monster. Early on Demo/Planned + Knowledge (a bit later) then you can go Green or Cybernetic when eco starts to hurt.
Later you can go Demo/Green/Power/Eudiomonic with Cloning vats. Good efficiency, but also super economic and Industrial Power.

Remember that development wins the day in all departments and PK's excel at this. Normally you can out tech UoP just because they are too busy trying to keep their cities stable. +2 planet is all you need for industry all you Gaians and +2 Economy is all that is need for all you morganites.

posted 05-14-99 07:20 PM ET         

Kurnous: I always thought there was something wrong with me when I couldn't play well with UoP. I don't think your explanation is really fair, but I'd like some input in a new thread I'll start("UoP, whats the big deal?") for advanced Provosts to explain their tactics, and why UoP always gets the most votes.

posted 05-14-99 10:45 PM ET            

Why?

The more you play, the more you will appreciate the Hive, and the more you will dislike the UoP. Why? Well, when you play against REAL enemies (read: multiplayer), and the end game lasts 3x as long as the rest of the game, what happens is that the UoP reasearch/network nodes bonuses are worth ****, and you are stuck with mega drones and susceptable (probe) bases. The Hive, however, just swarms over at unprecedented speed, with the no neg effic. giving lots o' reasearch (until you don't need it), cash, and psych - just like the Morgans, but lacking the hab dome penalties. The + Industry means instant units, and the no neg. to police state means bonuses early on.

To all multi newbies: If you care to win, DON'T ever give tech to the believers, and make sure you catch their probe units. Then they're ****ed.

posted 05-15-99 12:39 AM ET            

-# means an Unknown Negative Vote. I was apparently being a goof or something.

1 Vote Total? Here I go.

.4 Pk
.4 UoP
.2 Morgan

posted 05-15-99 12:47 AM ET            

Pk is the easiest faction to play with. The votes almost insure Planetary Governor. The bonus population can delay the habs until I can build more Psyche buildings. The talents are a bonus.

UoP has the best in Research. That negative probe is easy to work around. Just build Hunter-Seeker. UoP isn't that bad on Transcendance Level once you get going into the game a little.

posted 05-15-99 08:41 AM ET            

Why, I hear so many of you saying? For the same reasons put down by Kurnous.

posted 05-15-99 11:17 PM ET         

PS: Your complaint is noted, and I'm not real good on PKs either.

posted 05-15-99 11:19 PM ET         

UoP: 8.4
Gaians: 8
Hive: 8
PKs: 5.4
Morgans: 3.7
Spartans: 3.5
Believers: 2

posted 05-16-99 03:20 AM ET            

Alright, Why?
For starts, the + 1 economy is great. You get more energy, which translates into more money and research. The pop. limit isn't really that hurtfull in the beginning, for the reason that, at least in my case, I spread out as quickly as possible. That means with all the coloney pods i produce, my pop stays low anyway, and by the time it is ready to go up, i just about have hab complexes. The 100 extra credits really helps with this also. I end up buying coloney pods in the beginning to accelerate my start. The -1 support is easly overcome and or gotten around.

The Morgans also rule in war. When i play, i keep peace with everybody i can (the +++ from commerce is awsome here). Then i selectivly get single factions to declare vendette on me through threats. In come the probe teams. Buy cites. Then start buying an army in thoes cities. Soon you have a huge army in their main, or what was their main territory, and you walk all over them.

posted 05-17-99 10:55 AM ET            

Ok 1st the PK's. For those that didn't read my above post read it now. I'd like to say that the extra talents really help to keep the population under control. Now with a population under control means more workers work on bringing in minerals, energy and nutrients, instead of wasting allocation on psych, or psych producing specialists e.g. a doctor. The more of each resourse you bring in the fast you produce 1. more population 2. more minerals 3. more energy then others.

Sure social engineering helps but the basics come from the workers. Now Peacekeeper rarely need to allocate much time and effort towards psych and its rare to make one a specialist in the early mid stages of the game. The extra Hab bonus means more population. That means you produce more resources. Sure Morganites can have a HUGE economy but all you need is +2 economy not +5. Sure Gaians can have +3 planet and some ultra efficience freaks make this go to 5. But all that is needed to stop planet going berserk on you is +2 Planet (Green Economy).
Morale wise all that is needed is a normal morale level. A command centre and bioenhancement centre give commando status. So +2 Morale (in the late stages) is a waste.

Ok why people like UoP. Well most people that bought Alpha are not much unlike me. Die hard Civ fans that checked the stores for over a month each day till it finally hit the shelves. I bought it as soon as I saw it. Well many players mastered Civ II and got scores like 258% on Emperor and averaged around 118% (if your like me) please don't tell me im not so good its bad for my ego.

Anyway most people won through ultra development with the basic philosphy to totaly out tech the enemy. Id usually have tanks when they have cavalry, and stealths when they have normal aircraft etc. Most player in my opinion started to really rise above the computer players at around 16-1700 and from then on the sky.

An interesting point. How many people where really pissed off when the power scale in Civ 2 hit the top and other Civ's where close or at the top as well. I hated that I was sure i was double as powerful as others that "hit the top" but I could never really tell!

Anyway many players saw technology as the path to win. So when they enthusiastically bought SMAC they read about the UoP and said "thats IT! I'll totally out tech em and win in Civ 2 style.

Well let me (hopefully!) pull these people down to earth...or planet as you will...like I was.

UoP is very deficent. The drone problem is massive. You simple must spend too many resourses to keep drone riots from happening. By raising the Psych bar you detract from Labs. IF you use doctors you miss you on all the resourses including ENERGY! which is needed to full those labs. Either way detracts from labs and/or development which further detracts tech...think of future potential lost or economic opportunity cost.

Let me tell you that UoP is pretty damn good on the easier levels...still a little bit of a pain but on Transcend I hate them. They are hopeless to manage. They don't have any police based bonus nor any psych bonus...actually a big psych handicap. IF you use police states then suffer -2 Eff...now that WILL slow research. Jesus UoP is damned **** on Transcend difficulty and a pain in the ass talent and above.

OH and they rely on the Hunter/seeker too much. IF they dont get it they are stuffed!

Also buy the time you build the damned thing you could have been probed or stuffed up anyway. UoP depends on too many SP's 4 my liking. even with hunter/seeker they still aren't the best technology gathers. I find that the morganites and also the PK's typically dominate in tech. Pk's are also good at ascent to transcendance...they dont nessessarily need to go for a diplomatic victory...especially hard in Multiplayer.

posted 05-17-99 12:59 PM ET            

1) The ability to build formers from the very beginning can speed development and production (nothing but roads, forests, and sensors at first).

2) Mindworm capture gives a huge advantage for pod-popping and worm-hunting in the early part of the game. The faction's morale penalty is mitigated by the use of worms and IotD's for attack against those aggressive early foes (until better troops are available).

posted 05-17-99 01:37 PM ET            

Playing the UoP I completed the Ascend to Transcendence on M.Y. 2284 (TI level). So, the basic philosophy to totally out tech the enemy still works. I challenge anyone to make a faster Transcendence victory with any other race.

posted 05-17-99 01:53 PM ET            

But the best faction really is the Hive, anyway. Simply put, they have no real weaknesses, other than not being able to get a +2 economy easily later on. Sure they can't pop boom early, but their initial growth kills everyone else anyway. Sure they start out with -2 economy, but that problem will soon be overcome because they can easily support 2 formers after switching to police state, not to mention a defender and an offensive unit. With those formers they will have solar collectors up soon and energy will be little concern. Then they switch to planned as well, and with no minerals wasted on support, a +3 growth, and a +2 industry, nobody can keep up with them building facilities and secret projects. Meanwhile, they have no problem conquering early because they can also support an attack force without sacrificing minerals.

I like the PKs in second because with Demo/Free Market/Knowledge, nobody can outresearch them, not even the University because they have to worry about drones and thus lose energy to psych allocation. Those 2 extra population for the PKs goes a long way, and the extra talents means they can put more energy into research.

posted 05-17-99 03:36 PM ET         

I thought you were out for good.

I agree that under ver 3.0, the Hive is very very dangerous. When you put the Hive together with Police State and Planned economy, they turn into a deadly war machine. When you roll the mineral bonus into the +4 support, it's a huge advantage in the early game.

Personally, I think -2 economy should incur far higher penalties than -1 energy. -2 economy should give you -1 energy per square, to be a parallel to +2 economy.

posted 05-18-99 04:49 AM ET            

Just take some effort to READ my post and also that of Smeagol and you will see why. Partical Impactor or Needlejet first...I don't think so. Morganites and Pk's tend to be faster researchers in general throught all my games thus far. I can use Demo/free/Know and its only a bit slower then UoP. But I DON'T have to worry about drones, or allocate any labs to the psych bar. Read Smeagol's latest post and my previous ones.

I agree with some players about the top 3. PK's, Hive and Gaians. They are oh so close.

Another point is that I liked UoP at first but they simply don't play as well as other factions...even tech wise.

Hive is very dangerous but I do think that early in the game the lag on tech a bit, but the clicher is that they never can really get +2 economy unless they are crazy. i.e they have a weak end game. Gaians are also great.

I'd like to propose that there be a weighting system for any future polls High Priest. Call it *New favourate factions 2*

I propose that people have 3 preferences. 1st gets say 5 points, 2nd 3 points, and 3rd 2 points or something similar. You see how many people put PK's second.

Also im sorry that some UoP enthusists are offended by some of my comments but they suffer from "Perceptual Blocking"...Im doing an undergrad psychology course. I (and others) bring along very strong points which they just don't except. Well Im no hypocrit. Argue for a faction or indeed argue against one. My mind is open.

IF you want a real PK die hard I might invite ATOMBOMBS freinds along. Now it would get ugly in here. So don't complain and also listen to reason.

Anyway these are my incoherent (and often mispelt thoughts)

posted 05-18-99 03:09 PM ET            

The Univercity's dreaded Drones.

How important really is? At first I' d like to remind you that the UoP is like any other race as long as your cities are below size 4. So in the beginning what you get are only benefits, +2 research/network nodes.

So, what I do is build recreation commons and keep my bases at size 3. I play with free market early and my research rocks, it's that simple. If a base is growing fast I put my people to work on the forests, (only 1 nutrient) or build a colony pod, or in rare cases I turn the 4th citizen into a doctor.

The first thing I build in my new bases (after the initial ones) is recreation commons. Waste you may say. It's not a waste because it is this very building that actually enables me to keep my free market. By the time my bases reach size3 I have already discoverd En. Economics, most of my cities have children's creche, so I' m about ready for the pop. boom. When I boom I change to Planned of course. Therefore I can use police now. Also by that time I have my Secret Projects, Humane Genome and Virtual World. During the boom I may have to turn a citizen into a doctor, so what? This citizen wasn't there just a round ago, I' m not actually losing anything. After the boom I revert to free market and then accordingly, I have some doctors, or better I allocate some Psych and turn them into Librarians. Soon I discover Centauri Meditation and voila my doctors are turned into Empaths giving me 2 Economy.
When you are allowed higher level specialists, Thinkers/Engineers it's meaningless to harvest all the squares in the city. What does a square give you after all? Plus 3 nutrients? You don't need them if you have tree farm/hybrid forest. Plus 2 minerals? You don't need them. Why? Because by that time my bases are at the polution limit, if I get more minerals I have Ecological damage, I don't want that. In fact by that time I change my supply crawlers to harvest energy rather than minerals. So it remains only the energy, but again instead of getting 3 energy harvesting a square you can change the worker into an Engineer and you get 3 economy, 2 labs. If the city has unrest you make him a Thinker, if it has increased unrest you make him an Empath.

posted 05-19-99 11:08 AM ET            

I' ll try the Hive again sometime. I played one game (TI level) but it was long ago and I didn't have much experience. It was maybe the hardest game I ever played. I remember, I built the Weather Paradigm very quickly and used terraform up a lot. I was even first in technology, using a lot of probe teams (what else). Still it was hard. I think the UoP is ideal for lazy people like me.

posted 05-23-99 12:48 AM ET            

Second favorite--3 points--The Peacekeepers.
"Peace through Strength" Ronald Reagan.
Enough said.

Third favorite-1 point-Gaians. I do not hold to their environmental wackoism, but they are fun to play. I love being able to do the mindworm rush.

posted 05-23-99 09:38 PM ET         

Well, anyway, sorry for the absence.

At any rate, I have been experimenting with the UOP a bit on Transcend, and have started to change my mind. I wouldn't say they're the best, but still pretty good.

The object for UoP on Transcend is to keep bases small at first. Do like the Morgans, make a bunch of tighly placed bases and sit on 'em until they can afford to grow. Once you are able to, hit the Human Genome with all you've got, then put another base working on it, too.

You should get the genome, and later switch the other base to Virtual World. You should get these two, and in one game I also got the WP. There should be some down time(I've played on Huge water maps), but build Rec Commons and many formers.

The great thing about UoP is that they're the only faction who can get a 0 support rating with Dem, great for early formers and garrisons. The other thing I didn't fully realize, is that their drone problems only hit at size four. At Transcend, drones hit before that on every faction. Basically, except for PKs, their drone problems are just as nasty as the other factions.

And you really have to look hard at that network node. The build time and expense usually makes it not worth it to build unless you've got VW in the early game. The ability to cash in on artifacts early also gives you a hidden advantage.

The Police State/Green combo works well in times of war, being as to the incredible armies you can support, the movement bonus/mindworm capture ability, and the fact that you can use police on newly captured cities can help you swamp the enemy.

I have to disagree on FM, though. I almost always have to have some units out, and 2 drones per unit can send a base into chaos. It can be worthwhile at a point where there are no neighbors or contacts, though, but green or planned is usually the way to go. The game will probably be different if I change the settings to small, land, but I like it how it is.

I haven't been playing UoP on TI or Librarian, though, so it might be different. At any rate, I've come to the conclusion that UoP is the best on easy levels, worst on LB/TI, but great on Transcend.

Any comments?

Oh yah, and thanx to Kurnous, all posts will be appearing on "New Favorite Factions2."