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Author Topic:   Airpower - Attack/Defense ??

Druid posted 04-10-99 11:04 AM ET
I'm having trouble telling what attack and/or defense factors are getting used during Air-to-air combat. Here's the situation:
I have in city: Copter 20-10-11 AAA Trained
I have next to city: Needlejet 20-1-14
The NeedleJet gets attacked by Diedre's Interceptor: 16-1-12 AAA
and my AAA Copter jumps out in defense.
So, in the actual Air-to-air fight what is the combat based on?
My 20 to her 1?
My 20 to her 16?
Her 16 to My 10?
Something else?
I'm not worried about the modifiers (if any).. just the basic what's-fighting-what determination.
Plato90s posted 04-10-99 11:36 AM ET
Air-to-Air combat has two different scenarios. If the attacker is attacking a stationary target [an unit which has already moved] then the combat is resolved conventionally. Weapon rating vs. armor rating.
However, if the combat is between an attacking aircraft and a defensive unit scrambled from a city [needlejet or copter], then the combat is resolved with weapon ratings along by both. Armor plays no role in this scenario.
So the answer is
Diedres's 16 vs. your 20
Druid posted 04-10-99 03:22 PM ET
Thanks for the info, Plato90s...
So.. armor on planes/copters is useful only when they are completely defensive.. i.e. already fully moved or on the ground in a city.
I wont bother with it anymore, then, on my FlakCopters. [rubbing my greedy hands together at the thought of all those extra credits I wont be spending. ]
Plato90s posted 04-10-99 09:31 PM ET
Yes, armor on an needlejet is useful only if you anticipate getting attacked while your plane is hanging around after an attack. For Combat Air Patrol, armor is useless.
Beta1 posted 09-21-99 08:24 AM ET
Bringing this up for reference
Schoop posted 09-21-99 11:38 AM ET
This begs the question--why is armor on planes so damned expensive??
Until Patch 3, adding armor to a plane didn't increase the mineral cost much, if at all. Afterwards, they made armor on air units cost DOUBLE what it would on land or sea units.
Logistically, it makes sense--armored and aerodynamic is a tough combination to achieve. Strategically, since armor on air units is almost useless, it's just a pain in the butt.
Plato90s posted 09-21-99 06:48 PM ET
Armor on aircraft does have its uses. When you have bombers out there, the use of armor can make them more survivable.
You wouldn't want to lose a Shard Penetrator to a puny little Missle Needlejet when you can just armor it and have a more than even chance of surviving.
NoviceCEO posted 09-22-99 02:42 PM ET
The suggestion of a poor unskilled player: just get some SAM jets (able to air-to-air attacks) and don't worry about putting armour on your bombers. It's at least less costly.
Hunterseeker posted 09-22-99 03:19 PM ET
I play on Thinker level and frankly, the only defense against air bombers the computer use is giving their ground units AAA tracking. I never see them using Interceptors.
Plato90s posted 09-22-99 09:54 PM ET
SAM aircraft isn't always the best solution.
I use bombers for terrain control as well, so I like to spread them out. With the SAM aircraft, I'd have to stack them together or build an equal number of SAM needlejets to bombers.
NoviceCEO posted 09-23-99 04:10 PM ET
Well, that tatic of having needlejets spread to bother the enemy with zones of control is awesome .
How much armor/reactor do you put on your bombers? Because unless you have a huge mineral production on the base you build your bombers and can get them in one turn, putting a lot of armor on your jets makes them as expensive as a fighter.
Of course I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm playing my first transcent level game today, so that's more a question.
jimmytrick posted 09-23-99 08:38 PM ET
Does anyone know a really good defensive tactic against attacking air power?
I am speaking with PBEM in mind, not the AI. The AI is too dumb to bother with.
Leahcim posted 09-26-99 08:35 PM ET
jimmytrick
The Confederacy will be crushed long before air power is discovered. They are just a step above the AI.
laurens posted 09-27-99 10:03 AM ET
jimmytrick -
In my opinion, SAM Copters are the only way to go about doing it. Meet aggressiveness with aggressiveness.
Zoetrope posted 10-02-99 10:26 PM ET
Hunterseeker: i also play at Thinker, and CP Interceptors are always a problem, unless i crush the CPs before they get airpower.
AlexDePol posted 10-04-99 03:59 AM ET
This is very strange but I actually agree with JT . The best way to deal with air units is to attack them first.
When I cannot build air units quickly enough I build some cheap ass rovers with air superiority and station them outside bases.
Then I take out all those enemy bombers once thay finished their bombing raid and just hang there defensles.
MajiK6pt5 posted 10-04-99 10:50 PM ET
-- not to interrupt or anything --
but SMAC got it wrong:
SAM is Surface-to-Air-Missile
you can't put SAM Missiles on aircraft...
that would be AAM (Air-to-Air-Missiles)
Compugasm posted 10-05-99 09:10 AM ET
jimmytrick "...Does anyone know a really good defensive tactic against attacking air power? I am speaking with PBEM in mind..."

This is my plane setup. For every assult plane, there are 2 complimentary defensive and one air attack plane. Defensive units should be set to "Designated Defender" as soon as created. Examples:
"Attack" = Best weapon, no armor, attacking special abilities. (10-1-12)
"Defensive" = Worst weapon, best or no armor, 2 square visibility. (1-1-12 or 1-4-12)
Order of combat:
Turn #1 = Send defensive plane to survey city and surrounding landscape.
Turn #2 = Defense plane returns if not killed. Look at terrain to find highest elevation to place troops on later. See what enemy troops are in the base and begin moving units from other bases to counter the ones the enemy has defending.
Turn #3 = Choose a target and send attack plane there. First target should be a sensor array. If no array then attack a road, no road attack a former. This works great against expansionist factions (Hive, Beliver, Spartan). Cities for them are farther apart. Roads are their lifeline. Send a second defensive plane to the same location where the attack plane stopped. If enemy has air attack planes he will try deploy them. But your defense will absorb the attack. His planes will be wide open to counter attack.
Turn #4 = Planes return to base. Send air attack plane to down enemy plane. Send first defensive plane to same square.
The purpose of a defensive plane is to absorb damage if attacked. Doesn't matter if it's killed. Defensive needlejets are very cheap. What your trying to accomplish is preventing the attack plane being destroyed. Every turn that an attack plane is not attacking is counter productive. If it's repairing, it's no good to you no matter how powerful the weapon.
With this system, you don't have as many attack planes. But they are killed less often, spend less time repairing, attack more often. Therefore maximizing the minerals you put into their construction.
--Compugasm
--2215 Defensive
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Author	Topic: Airpower - Attack/Defense ??
Druid	posted 04-10-99 11:04 AM ET I'm having trouble telling what attack and/or defense factors are getting used during Air-to-air combat. Here's the situation: I have in city: Copter 20-10-11 AAA Trained I have next to city: Needlejet 20-1-14 The NeedleJet gets attacked by Diedre's Interceptor: 16-1-12 AAA and my AAA Copter jumps out in defense. So, in the actual Air-to-air fight what is the combat based on? My 20 to her 1? My 20 to her 16? Her 16 to My 10? Something else? I'm not worried about the modifiers (if any).. just the basic what's-fighting-what determination.
Plato90s	posted 04-10-99 11:36 AM ET Air-to-Air combat has two different scenarios. If the attacker is attacking a stationary target [an unit which has already moved] then the combat is resolved conventionally. Weapon rating vs. armor rating. However, if the combat is between an attacking aircraft and a defensive unit scrambled from a city [needlejet or copter], then the combat is resolved with weapon ratings along by both. Armor plays no role in this scenario. So the answer is Diedres's 16 vs. your 20
Druid	posted 04-10-99 03:22 PM ET Thanks for the info, Plato90s... So.. armor on planes/copters is useful only when they are completely defensive.. i.e. already fully moved or on the ground in a city. I wont bother with it anymore, then, on my FlakCopters. [rubbing my greedy hands together at the thought of all those extra credits I wont be spending. ]
Plato90s	posted 04-10-99 09:31 PM ET Yes, armor on an needlejet is useful only if you anticipate getting attacked while your plane is hanging around after an attack. For Combat Air Patrol, armor is useless.
Beta1	posted 09-21-99 08:24 AM ET Bringing this up for reference
Schoop	posted 09-21-99 11:38 AM ET This begs the question--why is armor on planes so damned expensive?? Until Patch 3, adding armor to a plane didn't increase the mineral cost much, if at all. Afterwards, they made armor on air units cost DOUBLE what it would on land or sea units. Logistically, it makes sense--armored and aerodynamic is a tough combination to achieve. Strategically, since armor on air units is almost useless, it's just a pain in the butt.
Plato90s	posted 09-21-99 06:48 PM ET Armor on aircraft does have its uses. When you have bombers out there, the use of armor can make them more survivable. You wouldn't want to lose a Shard Penetrator to a puny little Missle Needlejet when you can just armor it and have a more than even chance of surviving.
NoviceCEO	posted 09-22-99 02:42 PM ET The suggestion of a poor unskilled player: just get some SAM jets (able to air-to-air attacks) and don't worry about putting armour on your bombers. It's at least less costly.
Hunterseeker	posted 09-22-99 03:19 PM ET I play on Thinker level and frankly, the only defense against air bombers the computer use is giving their ground units AAA tracking. I never see them using Interceptors.
Plato90s	posted 09-22-99 09:54 PM ET SAM aircraft isn't always the best solution. I use bombers for terrain control as well, so I like to spread them out. With the SAM aircraft, I'd have to stack them together or build an equal number of SAM needlejets to bombers.
NoviceCEO	posted 09-23-99 04:10 PM ET Well, that tatic of having needlejets spread to bother the enemy with zones of control is awesome . How much armor/reactor do you put on your bombers? Because unless you have a huge mineral production on the base you build your bombers and can get them in one turn, putting a lot of armor on your jets makes them as expensive as a fighter. Of course I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm playing my first transcent level game today, so that's more a question.
jimmytrick	posted 09-23-99 08:38 PM ET Does anyone know a really good defensive tactic against attacking air power? I am speaking with PBEM in mind, not the AI. The AI is too dumb to bother with.
Leahcim	posted 09-26-99 08:35 PM ET jimmytrick The Confederacy will be crushed long before air power is discovered. They are just a step above the AI.
laurens	posted 09-27-99 10:03 AM ET jimmytrick - In my opinion, SAM Copters are the only way to go about doing it. Meet aggressiveness with aggressiveness.
Zoetrope	posted 10-02-99 10:26 PM ET Hunterseeker: i also play at Thinker, and CP Interceptors are always a problem, unless i crush the CPs before they get airpower.
AlexDePol	posted 10-04-99 03:59 AM ET This is very strange but I actually agree with JT . The best way to deal with air units is to attack them first. When I cannot build air units quickly enough I build some cheap ass rovers with air superiority and station them outside bases. Then I take out all those enemy bombers once thay finished their bombing raid and just hang there defensles.
MajiK6pt5	posted 10-04-99 10:50 PM ET -- not to interrupt or anything -- but SMAC got it wrong: SAM is Surface-to-Air-Missile you can't put SAM Missiles on aircraft... that would be AAM (Air-to-Air-Missiles)
Compugasm	posted 10-05-99 09:10 AM ET jimmytrick "...Does anyone know a really good defensive tactic against attacking air power? I am speaking with PBEM in mind..." This is my plane setup. For every assult plane, there are 2 complimentary defensive and one air attack plane. Defensive units should be set to "Designated Defender" as soon as created. Examples: "Attack" = Best weapon, no armor, attacking special abilities. (10-1-12) "Defensive" = Worst weapon, best or no armor, 2 square visibility. (1-1-12 or 1-4-12) Order of combat: Turn #1 = Send defensive plane to survey city and surrounding landscape. Turn #2 = Defense plane returns if not killed. Look at terrain to find highest elevation to place troops on later. See what enemy troops are in the base and begin moving units from other bases to counter the ones the enemy has defending. Turn #3 = Choose a target and send attack plane there. First target should be a sensor array. If no array then attack a road, no road attack a former. This works great against expansionist factions (Hive, Beliver, Spartan). Cities for them are farther apart. Roads are their lifeline. Send a second defensive plane to the same location where the attack plane stopped. If enemy has air attack planes he will try deploy them. But your defense will absorb the attack. His planes will be wide open to counter attack. Turn #4 = Planes return to base. Send air attack plane to down enemy plane. Send first defensive plane to same square. The purpose of a defensive plane is to absorb damage if attacked. Doesn't matter if it's killed. Defensive needlejets are very cheap. What your trying to accomplish is preventing the attack plane being destroyed. Every turn that an attack plane is not attacking is counter productive. If it's repairing, it's no good to you no matter how powerful the weapon. With this system, you don't have as many attack planes. But they are killed less often, spend less time repairing, attack more often. Therefore maximizing the minerals you put into their construction. --Compugasm --2215 Defensive