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Author Topic:   Is the computer stupid or what??

erik posted 03-31-99 01:37 PM ET
I just won my first game on smac (playing at the level where I have the same oppotunities as the computer).
I played the gaians on huge planet map. there was a few turns
that was a little rough but apart from that winning was very easy. I met little reisitance, actually planet was my worst foe.
When I looked at the other factions I understood that it wasn't strange that I won.
E.g. Santiago had not developed a single square in her country. How is the computer going to win if it plays like that?
Plato90s posted 03-31-99 02:44 PM ET
Don't worry, the AI gets more much aggressive and develops its territory quite well.
FrankCorr posted 03-31-99 03:00 PM ET
I just finished a Transcend game as Spartan where I had to eliminate the Hive because they wouldn't go along with the Diplomatic Victory conditions. I was surprised to see when I arrived on their home continent that it was completely covered with magtubes, condensers, bore holes and soil enhancers. I consider myself a pretty agressive terraformer but I've never worked the land as hard as the AI did in this case.
Maugan posted 03-31-99 03:17 PM ET
The AI is not smart, it cheats. On trancend I always get the weather paradigm, and always put almost everything I can into teraforming, but nearly every other faction has as much, usualy much more teraforming done than I do at any given point in the game. This and the fact that the computer gets to see every hidden unit and know every possible little thing about your empire is what makes it strong. Not to cut down on Firaxis or anything but the 'computer sees your crap when it shouldnt' is only about the oldest bug in any AI system. I think i started bitching about games with this problem when i was 10, im 25 now and have yet to see much improvement on that in most games. As far as I can tell, about the diffuculty level should be renamed the AI cheating level.
Laksamana posted 03-31-99 03:38 PM ET
The Hive is always the most well-developed faction as far as I can tell, although for some reason they also have a tendency to clump a lot of their bases fairly close together.
Remember that the computer has the advantage of being able to keep track of its units far better than a human usually can (it also has the patience to do so too). When my bases get up to around 15-20, I have around 30-60 terraformers running around. This becomes a pain in the behind to keep track of, and I usually just set them to auto (unless I notice they're doing something moronic, which happens more often than one would think or during an emergency).
Maugan, out of curiosity, how do you know the computer can "see" every hidden unit? And what exactly does "hidden unit" mean? Do you just mean units stacked on top of one another, or units in a location where the AI has no eyes or ears and should not be able to detect? I'm not saying the AI doesn't cheat, I just want to know how you know it does. Simply because it looks like the AI is doing almost as good a job as you in terraforming isn't exactly hard and fast "proof".
Maugan posted 03-31-99 03:47 PM ET
After having enemy jets fly straight at my ships at sea with nothing near them for 10 squares over and over, after having units that were 'hidden' in fungus exactly as the rules say act as magnets for the nearest enemy unit who ALWAYS walks in a straight line right to you, after having subs be no more stealthy than battleships, After having the empath guild,the govenership, and the hunterseeker thingy and still seemingly having inferior intelegance to computer players, I have decided that the game cheats. This was also very common in civ 1 and 2. Ask around, I cant beleive noone else has noticed this.
outermost nervepath posted 04-01-99 07:31 PM ET
Yeah, I've read a lot of posts that claim it doesn't cheat until one of the two highest levels. I can't believe that, though. The big one you mentioned is when a few jets travel huge distances and nail some specific unit that the computer wasn't anywhere near.
On the other hand, every game I play, the Hive is really pathetic. Yet I keep reading that everybody dreads it. As far as I'm concerned, U of P or Tree Huggers are the worst.
Nell_Smith posted 04-01-99 09:18 PM ET
I've noticed that the SMAC AI does "cheat", in much the same way as the Civ2 AI does: for example, viewing your pact brothers' bases sometimes shows cities with 50% or more drones, no talents and no drone riots - the old Civ2 "AI happiness cheat" I guess!! - and when you march through enemy terrain, you find millions of terrain improvements but only about two formers - nice work guys!! . However, my problem is that the AI doesn't play smartly enough, even with these cheats. It seems that, no matter what your strategy or which faction you're playing, once you reach a critical point in the game, usually once you edge into the lead over the other factions, you are guaranteed to win if you don't do anything stupid. It seems that once you take out three or four of your enemies' best cities, they're stuffed for the rest of the game and it's just a matter of time as you move your army from one of their bases to the next, wiping them out. Maybe it's because I know Civ2 so well and therefore know a few good strategies - SMAC is really similar as far as I can tell. I've tried playing all the factions but in the end it always seems to come down to the "edge ahead - guaranteed victory" point. It's not helped by the fact that the AI wastes its factions' resources by letting them fight amongst themselves when they should be uniting against the far-more-powerful human player. Even at Transcend level, the only way to give the AI any kind of chance is to play on a huge map, so that they have some time to build up some infrastructure before meeting each other (or you!) and getting wiped out. Anyone have any views on which faction is the weakest overall, and therefore the most challenging to play?
Koshko posted 04-02-99 12:32 AM ET
Whose the toughest varies. Some games a faction will be a pushover, other times they'll be a nightmare.
Funny, the Hive is usually one of the roughest (or at least most annoying) for me. If you are on the same landmass, they attack and attack and attack. Sure, I try to have a mass Tech advantage, but I'm a builder not a warmonger. I like to get all the improvements I can, then mass-produce troops if needed. The Hive isn't that smart though. They've done mass kamazakee attacks on one of my cities. Literally, 20 planes blasted the same city, destroying all of the units inside of it. Then they leave it like that. They don't take it over. If the University destroys anything with planes, they'll Drop Pod a troop of two and walk into the empty city.
I have noticed some 'techniques' that the computer does that doesn't seem right. But at the same time, they seldomly attack a weakly defended city right next to them. So, I really can't complain too much about AI cheating.
Centaurion posted 04-03-99 04:09 AM ET
One thing that really bugs me is that when you get in front of the AI (Tech, money or power...) Every faction starts to dislike you. Even your allies start stealing techs.
I dont think you could say one faction is weaker than the others. It depends on your playing style.
I often play as Koshko and are therefor fond of the university.
Mortis posted 04-03-99 06:52 AM ET
What you are saying is that Firaxis should have programed an AI that thinks like a human...
SMAC is a very complex game, you have to manage terraforming, research, city building and management, military and diplomacy all while keeping view of a long term goal or stategy. And all these things work individualy of each other, since they all realy on the same resources. As you can see the programers need to teach the AI to do more then just staife.
You want the AI to think ecacly like you, but the amount of information presented before it is huge. In civ it was simple- if there's grassland, build a farm, if there's hill, build a mine. Here it's alot more complicated, and the same goes for the units. Humans can learn and invent new strategies, AI can't.
But if you just cant stand the AI; play MP.
Nell_Smith posted 04-03-99 07:00 AM ET
Hey don't get me wrong... I love SMAC and it's only because I do love it that I wish it would play a bit more smartly. Also, I don't mind the AI cheating at all, because of course I realise that it can't match up to a human - I reckon Firaxis have done a great job as it is. So really, it might be good if it cheated a bit MORE, so as to give it a fighting chance!! Thanks for the replies... I too am a builder rather than a warmonger, and I wish the AI was too, because then when you take over their cities, you'd find some great infrastructure there instead of the more usual two or three structures plus nine billion troop units . I loved CIV2 also, for all its faults, and there's no way that a couple of AI moans are going to stop me from playing SMAC either... it's a great game, lovely to look at and, although similar, a definite improvement over CIV. Playing MP would be cool, except for the fact that I'm in the UK and the cost of the phone calls is what puts me off. How does the play by email work?? Anyone tried it, and is it fun, or is it a bit slow, like?? By the way, I usually play as the University also, seeing as I love to research peacefully when I can, and I also find that Hive a right pain in the butt with their totally bad attitude!!
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Author	Topic: Is the computer stupid or what??
erik	posted 03-31-99 01:37 PM ET I just won my first game on smac (playing at the level where I have the same oppotunities as the computer). I played the gaians on huge planet map. there was a few turns that was a little rough but apart from that winning was very easy. I met little reisitance, actually planet was my worst foe. When I looked at the other factions I understood that it wasn't strange that I won. E.g. Santiago had not developed a single square in her country. How is the computer going to win if it plays like that?
Plato90s	posted 03-31-99 02:44 PM ET Don't worry, the AI gets more much aggressive and develops its territory quite well.
FrankCorr	posted 03-31-99 03:00 PM ET I just finished a Transcend game as Spartan where I had to eliminate the Hive because they wouldn't go along with the Diplomatic Victory conditions. I was surprised to see when I arrived on their home continent that it was completely covered with magtubes, condensers, bore holes and soil enhancers. I consider myself a pretty agressive terraformer but I've never worked the land as hard as the AI did in this case.
Maugan	posted 03-31-99 03:17 PM ET The AI is not smart, it cheats. On trancend I always get the weather paradigm, and always put almost everything I can into teraforming, but nearly every other faction has as much, usualy much more teraforming done than I do at any given point in the game. This and the fact that the computer gets to see every hidden unit and know every possible little thing about your empire is what makes it strong. Not to cut down on Firaxis or anything but the 'computer sees your crap when it shouldnt' is only about the oldest bug in any AI system. I think i started bitching about games with this problem when i was 10, im 25 now and have yet to see much improvement on that in most games. As far as I can tell, about the diffuculty level should be renamed the AI cheating level.
Laksamana	posted 03-31-99 03:38 PM ET The Hive is always the most well-developed faction as far as I can tell, although for some reason they also have a tendency to clump a lot of their bases fairly close together. Remember that the computer has the advantage of being able to keep track of its units far better than a human usually can (it also has the patience to do so too). When my bases get up to around 15-20, I have around 30-60 terraformers running around. This becomes a pain in the behind to keep track of, and I usually just set them to auto (unless I notice they're doing something moronic, which happens more often than one would think or during an emergency). Maugan, out of curiosity, how do you know the computer can "see" every hidden unit? And what exactly does "hidden unit" mean? Do you just mean units stacked on top of one another, or units in a location where the AI has no eyes or ears and should not be able to detect? I'm not saying the AI doesn't cheat, I just want to know how you know it does. Simply because it looks like the AI is doing almost as good a job as you in terraforming isn't exactly hard and fast "proof".
Maugan	posted 03-31-99 03:47 PM ET After having enemy jets fly straight at my ships at sea with nothing near them for 10 squares over and over, after having units that were 'hidden' in fungus exactly as the rules say act as magnets for the nearest enemy unit who ALWAYS walks in a straight line right to you, after having subs be no more stealthy than battleships, After having the empath guild,the govenership, and the hunterseeker thingy and still seemingly having inferior intelegance to computer players, I have decided that the game cheats. This was also very common in civ 1 and 2. Ask around, I cant beleive noone else has noticed this.
outermost nervepath	posted 04-01-99 07:31 PM ET Yeah, I've read a lot of posts that claim it doesn't cheat until one of the two highest levels. I can't believe that, though. The big one you mentioned is when a few jets travel huge distances and nail some specific unit that the computer wasn't anywhere near. On the other hand, every game I play, the Hive is really pathetic. Yet I keep reading that everybody dreads it. As far as I'm concerned, U of P or Tree Huggers are the worst.
Nell_Smith	posted 04-01-99 09:18 PM ET I've noticed that the SMAC AI does "cheat", in much the same way as the Civ2 AI does: for example, viewing your pact brothers' bases sometimes shows cities with 50% or more drones, no talents and no drone riots - the old Civ2 "AI happiness cheat" I guess!! - and when you march through enemy terrain, you find millions of terrain improvements but only about two formers - nice work guys!! . However, my problem is that the AI doesn't play smartly enough, even with these cheats. It seems that, no matter what your strategy or which faction you're playing, once you reach a critical point in the game, usually once you edge into the lead over the other factions, you are guaranteed to win if you don't do anything stupid. It seems that once you take out three or four of your enemies' best cities, they're stuffed for the rest of the game and it's just a matter of time as you move your army from one of their bases to the next, wiping them out. Maybe it's because I know Civ2 so well and therefore know a few good strategies - SMAC is really similar as far as I can tell. I've tried playing all the factions but in the end it always seems to come down to the "edge ahead - guaranteed victory" point. It's not helped by the fact that the AI wastes its factions' resources by letting them fight amongst themselves when they should be uniting against the far-more-powerful human player. Even at Transcend level, the only way to give the AI any kind of chance is to play on a huge map, so that they have some time to build up some infrastructure before meeting each other (or you!) and getting wiped out. Anyone have any views on which faction is the weakest overall, and therefore the most challenging to play?
Koshko	posted 04-02-99 12:32 AM ET Whose the toughest varies. Some games a faction will be a pushover, other times they'll be a nightmare. Funny, the Hive is usually one of the roughest (or at least most annoying) for me. If you are on the same landmass, they attack and attack and attack. Sure, I try to have a mass Tech advantage, but I'm a builder not a warmonger. I like to get all the improvements I can, then mass-produce troops if needed. The Hive isn't that smart though. They've done mass kamazakee attacks on one of my cities. Literally, 20 planes blasted the same city, destroying all of the units inside of it. Then they leave it like that. They don't take it over. If the University destroys anything with planes, they'll Drop Pod a troop of two and walk into the empty city. I have noticed some 'techniques' that the computer does that doesn't seem right. But at the same time, they seldomly attack a weakly defended city right next to them. So, I really can't complain too much about AI cheating.
Centaurion	posted 04-03-99 04:09 AM ET One thing that really bugs me is that when you get in front of the AI (Tech, money or power...) Every faction starts to dislike you. Even your allies start stealing techs. I dont think you could say one faction is weaker than the others. It depends on your playing style. I often play as Koshko and are therefor fond of the university.
Mortis	posted 04-03-99 06:52 AM ET What you are saying is that Firaxis should have programed an AI that thinks like a human... SMAC is a very complex game, you have to manage terraforming, research, city building and management, military and diplomacy all while keeping view of a long term goal or stategy. And all these things work individualy of each other, since they all realy on the same resources. As you can see the programers need to teach the AI to do more then just staife. You want the AI to think ecacly like you, but the amount of information presented before it is huge. In civ it was simple- if there's grassland, build a farm, if there's hill, build a mine. Here it's alot more complicated, and the same goes for the units. Humans can learn and invent new strategies, AI can't. But if you just cant stand the AI; play MP.
Nell_Smith	posted 04-03-99 07:00 AM ET Hey don't get me wrong... I love SMAC and it's only because I do love it that I wish it would play a bit more smartly. Also, I don't mind the AI cheating at all, because of course I realise that it can't match up to a human - I reckon Firaxis have done a great job as it is. So really, it might be good if it cheated a bit MORE, so as to give it a fighting chance!! Thanks for the replies... I too am a builder rather than a warmonger, and I wish the AI was too, because then when you take over their cities, you'd find some great infrastructure there instead of the more usual two or three structures plus nine billion troop units . I loved CIV2 also, for all its faults, and there's no way that a couple of AI moans are going to stop me from playing SMAC either... it's a great game, lovely to look at and, although similar, a definite improvement over CIV. Playing MP would be cool, except for the fact that I'm in the UK and the cost of the phone calls is what puts me off. How does the play by email work?? Anyone tried it, and is it fun, or is it a bit slow, like?? By the way, I usually play as the University also, seeing as I love to research peacefully when I can, and I also find that Hive a right pain in the butt with their totally bad attitude!!