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Author Topic:   Infiltrate Data-Links

Taika1 posted 03-23-99 05:39 PM ET
Is there any cost or downside to infiltrating another factions data-links?? Does your infiltration eventually go away or is there a way they can remove your infiltration??
Plato90s posted 03-23-99 07:06 PM ET
No, datalink infiltration is complete and never expires. A poorly thought out feature, I think.
Fiannaidh posted 03-23-99 07:18 PM ET
no, infiltrating data-links carries no diplomatic or reputation penalties. Even if your own data links are infiltrated by a pact brother, the game does not consider this sufficient reason for ending the pact, much less declaring war.
googlie posted 03-23-99 07:57 PM ET
You can lose your infiltration links if you get a network overload (you'll get the message that you've lost all your current research data and that you need to build more Network Nodes) - you also lose all faction information you're carrying plus pact downloads from pact bros. You can turn off random events at start-up - also, having the SP that gives you network nodes in every base (Virtual World) gives you immunity (as does being UoP)
Plato90s posted 03-24-99 12:32 AM ET
Actually, Virtual World does not give you network nodes. It simply enhances the ability of the network nodes to act as hologram theatres in addition to its lab bonus.
Fiannaidh posted 03-24-99 09:14 AM ET
Or you could be UofP
VulturesRow posted 03-24-99 08:41 PM ET
Im not sure what some of you are talkint about. The virtual world sp causes your network nodes to act as hologram theatres. This is an especially good sp for UoP because of their free network node in every base and continual drone probs. The only way to guarantee complete protection from probes is the hunter seeker algorithm.
googlie posted 03-25-99 01:22 AM ET
Sorry, I was the one that got the topic a little off-track by introducing the Random Event effect (circuit overload wiping your research and infiltration data from your screens and giving the message "build more Network Nodes") and asking - or erroneously suggesting - how to immunize against that random event.
Original post was does it cost to infiltrate and can you lose that infiltration capability.
Q. If you have infiltrated, and the infiltratee (?) gets the Hunter Seeker, do you immediately lose your data?
Plato90s posted 03-25-99 08:46 AM ET
Hunter-Seeker Algorithm [HSA] only affects new probe activity.
Fiannaidh posted 03-25-99 06:45 PM ET
Nah, you just eradicate the faction that infiltrated them!
Fiannaidh posted 03-25-99 06:46 PM ET
Hey, don't you think that you should be able to sell your infiltration to other factions?
Taika1 posted 03-25-99 09:25 PM ET
That would be nice... I thought infiltrations were a bit overpowered.
Plato90s posted 03-26-99 09:25 AM ET
Well, with the 3.0 patch infiltration gets really fun. Once you sign a pact, you have infiltration. If you are the governor, you also get infiltration. No need to insert a probe, just be the governor.
Wen_Amon posted 03-26-99 11:47 AM ET
THat sounds like a cool feature.
White_Cat posted 03-28-99 02:12 AM ET
"Q. If you have infiltrated, and the infiltratee (?) gets the Hunter Seeker, do you immediately lose your data?"
I don't think that the Hunter/Seeker prevents probe team infiltration.
DrDoom posted 03-30-99 10:25 AM ET

IMHO the Infiltrate Datalinks action is far too powerful. It simply ruins multiplayer games. I have played several multiplayer games of 3-7 players in a LAN, and the single most frustrating aspect of the game is the complete lack of secrecy after the appearance of probe teams. The ability to constantly spy all production and troop movement in all enemy bases not only makes all surprise impossible, but slows the game down - nobody wants to be the one NOT chechking out possible hostile activity near their borders every other turn (time limits - I know, but they are frustrating).
My solution would be limiting the "visibility" of datalink infiltration to only the town in question, or in time, so that it would only last for a number of turns (configurable in an .ini -file, of course ).
A way of balancing this could be to also show the locations of (nearby?/all?) enemy units. This would be nice if you were planning an assault on an enmy base and would like to know the locations and numbers of the enemy defence force.
All in all, something about this should be done, be it only the lowering of the success rate and making it count as an act of aggression, but something, please.
BTW thank (insert-your-favour-godly-being-here) and the boys (and girls) at Firaxis for the completely awesome game you have made us.
McGeorge posted 03-30-99 11:56 AM ET
Another possibility for balancing the infiltration would be to give probe teams some domestic ability beyond just defending cities. A "find infiltration" action would allow you to break an enemies data pipeline to you. To keep this ability from making infiltration completely worthless, it could be required that hunting down the infiltration takes multiple turns, does not have 100% success rate and/or must be done in the base where the original probe team infiltration took place. This would balance game play and be a realistic thing for probe teams to be able to do.
"Space is blue, and birds fly through it."
Werner Heisenberg
googlie posted 07-09-99 02:34 PM ET
it's still quiet in the office, so some of these older threads bear revisiting
RGE posted 07-10-99 03:37 AM ET
I have another idea about how to limit inflitration of datalinks. Let the infiltrating probe team enter the base and let them get all the usual information that infiltration gives. If the inflitrated faction wants the infiltration removed, they have to send probe teams of their own to kill the inflitrating probe team. Thus it will be a matter of dedication and power, as it should be. Eventually one of the parties will lose enough probe teams to let the other faction do whatever they're doing, at least while they're rebuilding/reinforcing their spy network
Of course, this mostly matters in multiplayer. In single player games the AI factions already know every move you make, right? Or maybe not...I've heard that AI factions preemptively build units to defend against what you're building, but I've only seen the AI build units depending on what I use for attacking. Maybe if the AI had infiltrated my datalinks they would've reacted to my build queue as well?
RGE
Plato90s posted 07-10-99 02:27 PM ET
When you infiltrate datalinks, you can see everything about the other factions, just like yours. You can go to the base menu and see what each city is building. You can check out the garrisons in each city.
Too damn powerful. I think there should be a time expiration. You should be required to re-infiltrate the enemy's datalinks every 10 or 20 years. And data on military units should not be renewed automatically. It's fair to say datalink infiltration would show city infrastructure, but info on enemy garrisons should not be available in real time. As with any spy activity, repeated infiltration of the same city should become very difficult.
The time limit means you don't have to come up with some model of killing infiltration teams. You just have to keep new probe teams away for the time period. It'd also put a premium on building more probe teams, to update your infiltration data regularly, especially if military data has to be renewed every single year in order to be fully up-to-date.
laurens posted 07-10-99 02:29 PM ET
A time expiration would come in useful.
But if you want realistism, perhaps an option to allow occasional check-ups of your city security interlocks - removing possible spies implanted - would be welcomed.
Beta1 posted 07-10-99 04:03 PM ET
I agree there should be a way of breaking the infiltration or that it should time out. What about the old Civ2 approach - you just get a snapshot of the base status at the moment you infiltrated.
Plato90s posted 07-10-99 09:25 PM ET
But the Civ2 model was annoying since you couldn't plan a campaign. With SMAC's datalink infiltration, you can see a weakness in their defenses and hit that spot.
It'd be fair enough to get a snapshot of the entire faction if it expires in 1 year. That way you can still plan campaigns accordingly without giving undue advantage.
The way I visualize it is when my armada of 2 fully loaded transports and 1 carrier is withing striking distance of the enemy shore, I should be able to send in a cruiser probe team to decide where to land the invasion force for maximum effect.
Beta1 posted 07-11-99 10:44 AM ET
OK how about after infiltrating clicking on any enemy base shows you the base status screen at the time that it was infiltrated - but this is not updated each turn. (eg if I click on the base again in five years I will only see what was there at the time I infilatrated) So if you dont keep your spy operations up to speed you will have to rely on out of date information. This way if you send in your probes JUST ahead of your battle group you can judge realtive strengths of different bases, but your never entirely sure if the garrisons have changed/been upgraded etc.
Plato90s posted 07-11-99 12:40 PM ET
Beta,
That's basically the system I am advocating. Military data is only valid for the year you have penetrated while civilian data [production queue, city improvements] and diplomatic data [SE selection, relationships with other factions] should have a longer lifespan, say 10-20 years.
That means all factions would be forced to re-infiltrate datalink to keep up on the diplomatic/civilian data, and that an invasion must be accompanied by probe teams if you want up-to-date data.
technophile posted 07-11-99 04:15 PM ET
I like the idea of having the infiltration information stay around forever, but not updating it. The thing is, the data should be definitely timed out, but at the same time you should have constant access to it (no matter how inaccurate it is).
Another possibility, I think, should be that the infiltration data would be updated, but that it would not be as accurate as it once was, for example maybe at first the wrong build queue information comes through, then you stop seeing all of the troop movement (and maybe you even see some 'ghost' troop movement), and pretty soon your infiltration is next to useless and another infiltration team must be sent in. If this system were used than the faction defending from an infiltration wouldn't necessarily have to DESTROY the information pipeline, but for less cost (and maybe even more damage) the data being sent could be tweaked (as if by double agents) to the defending faction's favor.
Plato90s posted 07-11-99 06:41 PM ET
Well, to do disinformation would require lots of extra programming. Ditto with having unupdated information.
Simply timing out the datalink infiltration requires almost no change in the core program.
technophile posted 07-11-99 09:27 PM ET
Oh, I'm not saying that it would be easy, just that it would add a whole new element to gameplay. Timing out/eliminating information pipelines should be a priority for Firaxis to put in their next enhancement, else multiplayer games will continue to be lopsided. The mis-information aspect...that could easily give Firaxis the edge for its next Civ type game (because you know that Activision isn't going to quit, now that they have the oh-so-powerful Civ name). Think about it--what made the Invasion of Normandy work, the soldiers, or the fact that Germany thought that the main attack was coming at Calais? Of course Normandy would have failed without the soldiers, but it could have just as easily failed if Rommel moved his army from Calais to Normandy to repel the invasion. Too large a change to code? Fine, I understand, but Firaxis should still consider adding a misinformation aspect to its next Civ game.
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Author	Topic: Infiltrate Data-Links
Taika1	posted 03-23-99 05:39 PM ET Is there any cost or downside to infiltrating another factions data-links?? Does your infiltration eventually go away or is there a way they can remove your infiltration??
Plato90s	posted 03-23-99 07:06 PM ET No, datalink infiltration is complete and never expires. A poorly thought out feature, I think.
Fiannaidh	posted 03-23-99 07:18 PM ET no, infiltrating data-links carries no diplomatic or reputation penalties. Even if your own data links are infiltrated by a pact brother, the game does not consider this sufficient reason for ending the pact, much less declaring war.
googlie	posted 03-23-99 07:57 PM ET You can lose your infiltration links if you get a network overload (you'll get the message that you've lost all your current research data and that you need to build more Network Nodes) - you also lose all faction information you're carrying plus pact downloads from pact bros. You can turn off random events at start-up - also, having the SP that gives you network nodes in every base (Virtual World) gives you immunity (as does being UoP)
Plato90s	posted 03-24-99 12:32 AM ET Actually, Virtual World does not give you network nodes. It simply enhances the ability of the network nodes to act as hologram theatres in addition to its lab bonus.
Fiannaidh	posted 03-24-99 09:14 AM ET Or you could be UofP
VulturesRow	posted 03-24-99 08:41 PM ET Im not sure what some of you are talkint about. The virtual world sp causes your network nodes to act as hologram theatres. This is an especially good sp for UoP because of their free network node in every base and continual drone probs. The only way to guarantee complete protection from probes is the hunter seeker algorithm.
googlie	posted 03-25-99 01:22 AM ET Sorry, I was the one that got the topic a little off-track by introducing the Random Event effect (circuit overload wiping your research and infiltration data from your screens and giving the message "build more Network Nodes") and asking - or erroneously suggesting - how to immunize against that random event. Original post was does it cost to infiltrate and can you lose that infiltration capability. Q. If you have infiltrated, and the infiltratee (?) gets the Hunter Seeker, do you immediately lose your data?
Plato90s	posted 03-25-99 08:46 AM ET Hunter-Seeker Algorithm [HSA] only affects new probe activity.
Fiannaidh	posted 03-25-99 06:45 PM ET Nah, you just eradicate the faction that infiltrated them!
Fiannaidh	posted 03-25-99 06:46 PM ET Hey, don't you think that you should be able to sell your infiltration to other factions?
Taika1	posted 03-25-99 09:25 PM ET That would be nice... I thought infiltrations were a bit overpowered.
Plato90s	posted 03-26-99 09:25 AM ET Well, with the 3.0 patch infiltration gets really fun. Once you sign a pact, you have infiltration. If you are the governor, you also get infiltration. No need to insert a probe, just be the governor.
Wen_Amon	posted 03-26-99 11:47 AM ET THat sounds like a cool feature.
White_Cat	posted 03-28-99 02:12 AM ET "Q. If you have infiltrated, and the infiltratee (?) gets the Hunter Seeker, do you immediately lose your data?" I don't think that the Hunter/Seeker prevents probe team infiltration.
DrDoom	posted 03-30-99 10:25 AM ET IMHO the Infiltrate Datalinks action is far too powerful. It simply ruins multiplayer games. I have played several multiplayer games of 3-7 players in a LAN, and the single most frustrating aspect of the game is the complete lack of secrecy after the appearance of probe teams. The ability to constantly spy all production and troop movement in all enemy bases not only makes all surprise impossible, but slows the game down - nobody wants to be the one NOT chechking out possible hostile activity near their borders every other turn (time limits - I know, but they are frustrating). My solution would be limiting the "visibility" of datalink infiltration to only the town in question, or in time, so that it would only last for a number of turns (configurable in an .ini -file, of course ). A way of balancing this could be to also show the locations of (nearby?/all?) enemy units. This would be nice if you were planning an assault on an enmy base and would like to know the locations and numbers of the enemy defence force. All in all, something about this should be done, be it only the lowering of the success rate and making it count as an act of aggression, but something, please. BTW thank (insert-your-favour-godly-being-here) and the boys (and girls) at Firaxis for the completely awesome game you have made us.
McGeorge	posted 03-30-99 11:56 AM ET Another possibility for balancing the infiltration would be to give probe teams some domestic ability beyond just defending cities. A "find infiltration" action would allow you to break an enemies data pipeline to you. To keep this ability from making infiltration completely worthless, it could be required that hunting down the infiltration takes multiple turns, does not have 100% success rate and/or must be done in the base where the original probe team infiltration took place. This would balance game play and be a realistic thing for probe teams to be able to do. "Space is blue, and birds fly through it." Werner Heisenberg
googlie	posted 07-09-99 02:34 PM ET it's still quiet in the office, so some of these older threads bear revisiting
RGE	posted 07-10-99 03:37 AM ET I have another idea about how to limit inflitration of datalinks. Let the infiltrating probe team enter the base and let them get all the usual information that infiltration gives. If the inflitrated faction wants the infiltration removed, they have to send probe teams of their own to kill the inflitrating probe team. Thus it will be a matter of dedication and power, as it should be. Eventually one of the parties will lose enough probe teams to let the other faction do whatever they're doing, at least while they're rebuilding/reinforcing their spy network Of course, this mostly matters in multiplayer. In single player games the AI factions already know every move you make, right? Or maybe not...I've heard that AI factions preemptively build units to defend against what you're building, but I've only seen the AI build units depending on what I use for attacking. Maybe if the AI had infiltrated my datalinks they would've reacted to my build queue as well? RGE
Plato90s	posted 07-10-99 02:27 PM ET When you infiltrate datalinks, you can see everything about the other factions, just like yours. You can go to the base menu and see what each city is building. You can check out the garrisons in each city. Too damn powerful. I think there should be a time expiration. You should be required to re-infiltrate the enemy's datalinks every 10 or 20 years. And data on military units should not be renewed automatically. It's fair to say datalink infiltration would show city infrastructure, but info on enemy garrisons should not be available in real time. As with any spy activity, repeated infiltration of the same city should become very difficult. The time limit means you don't have to come up with some model of killing infiltration teams. You just have to keep new probe teams away for the time period. It'd also put a premium on building more probe teams, to update your infiltration data regularly, especially if military data has to be renewed every single year in order to be fully up-to-date.
laurens	posted 07-10-99 02:29 PM ET A time expiration would come in useful. But if you want realistism, perhaps an option to allow occasional check-ups of your city security interlocks - removing possible spies implanted - would be welcomed.
Beta1	posted 07-10-99 04:03 PM ET I agree there should be a way of breaking the infiltration or that it should time out. What about the old Civ2 approach - you just get a snapshot of the base status at the moment you infiltrated.
Plato90s	posted 07-10-99 09:25 PM ET But the Civ2 model was annoying since you couldn't plan a campaign. With SMAC's datalink infiltration, you can see a weakness in their defenses and hit that spot. It'd be fair enough to get a snapshot of the entire faction if it expires in 1 year. That way you can still plan campaigns accordingly without giving undue advantage. The way I visualize it is when my armada of 2 fully loaded transports and 1 carrier is withing striking distance of the enemy shore, I should be able to send in a cruiser probe team to decide where to land the invasion force for maximum effect.
Beta1	posted 07-11-99 10:44 AM ET OK how about after infiltrating clicking on any enemy base shows you the base status screen at the time that it was infiltrated - but this is not updated each turn. (eg if I click on the base again in five years I will only see what was there at the time I infilatrated) So if you dont keep your spy operations up to speed you will have to rely on out of date information. This way if you send in your probes JUST ahead of your battle group you can judge realtive strengths of different bases, but your never entirely sure if the garrisons have changed/been upgraded etc.
Plato90s	posted 07-11-99 12:40 PM ET Beta, That's basically the system I am advocating. Military data is only valid for the year you have penetrated while civilian data [production queue, city improvements] and diplomatic data [SE selection, relationships with other factions] should have a longer lifespan, say 10-20 years. That means all factions would be forced to re-infiltrate datalink to keep up on the diplomatic/civilian data, and that an invasion must be accompanied by probe teams if you want up-to-date data.
technophile	posted 07-11-99 04:15 PM ET I like the idea of having the infiltration information stay around forever, but not updating it. The thing is, the data should be definitely timed out, but at the same time you should have constant access to it (no matter how inaccurate it is). Another possibility, I think, should be that the infiltration data would be updated, but that it would not be as accurate as it once was, for example maybe at first the wrong build queue information comes through, then you stop seeing all of the troop movement (and maybe you even see some 'ghost' troop movement), and pretty soon your infiltration is next to useless and another infiltration team must be sent in. If this system were used than the faction defending from an infiltration wouldn't necessarily have to DESTROY the information pipeline, but for less cost (and maybe even more damage) the data being sent could be tweaked (as if by double agents) to the defending faction's favor.
Plato90s	posted 07-11-99 06:41 PM ET Well, to do disinformation would require lots of extra programming. Ditto with having unupdated information. Simply timing out the datalink infiltration requires almost no change in the core program.
technophile	posted 07-11-99 09:27 PM ET Oh, I'm not saying that it would be easy, just that it would add a whole new element to gameplay. Timing out/eliminating information pipelines should be a priority for Firaxis to put in their next enhancement, else multiplayer games will continue to be lopsided. The mis-information aspect...that could easily give Firaxis the edge for its next Civ type game (because you know that Activision isn't going to quit, now that they have the oh-so-powerful Civ name). Think about it--what made the Invasion of Normandy work, the soldiers, or the fact that Germany thought that the main attack was coming at Calais? Of course Normandy would have failed without the soldiers, but it could have just as easily failed if Rommel moved his army from Calais to Normandy to repel the invasion. Too large a change to code? Fine, I understand, but Firaxis should still consider adding a misinformation aspect to its next Civ game.