posted 10-14-98 07:51 AM ET            

He is not that stereotyped, but some of the details are extremely suspect. When I lived in tanzania, all africans were seen as corrupt. This was, of course, wrong, but a very obvious racist stereotype. The whole "prince" thing is exploited to death with stereotypes in numerous Hollywood Movies: "Coming to America" with Eddie Murphy, for example. It would be nicer if he was a normal african risen to fame.

posted 10-14-98 08:11 AM ET            

Why not, if he's from Africa ? I like that style, btw. Are you stereotyped cause you're wearing western clothing ?

- He is Corrupt.

Even with your explanation (Tansania), I'd say that the stereotype is on your side. He's corrupting (rather than corrupt) not as he's african, but as a rather ruthless capitalist. More of o corparation-stereotype....

- "diamond mines" has overtones of south african apartheid.

No one mentioned south africa. Diamonds can be from other parts of Africa as well; the main producers are in Africa and Russia IIRC; so, as we already have a Russian... why not african diamonds ?

- He is a "prince" from an undefined african "kingdom"

The only thing where I'd say you have some merit. Lots of tribes, lots of princes. But Africa has a sort of ancient social structure (a stereotype in itself ? Not IMO, but that could be discussed), so his rise - even in the early 21st century - may well be explained by his origin.

posted 10-14-98 10:51 AM ET            

Diamond mines was the main thing in the beginning of the exploitation of south africa. In the congo wars, mercenaries were used greatly. Fighting across the sahara gives a feeling of "Lawrence of Arabia" kind of warfare, with the europeans taking care of the local askaris/whatever. Why couldn't morgan have become rich in, say, Brewing, Manufacturing or Stockbroking? No, he has to have the typical and in my opinion prejudiced occupations as described in the text.

The "Prince" thing: I mean that there are very few actual kingdoms in africa (I can only think of swaziland as an example, which has a constitutional monarch like Sweden or England). Chiefdoms, however, are still present (a stereotyped word in itself). A son of a chief would not really be a prince in the meaning of Eddie Murphy's role in "Coming to America". In fact, I can only think of only a few traditional Chiefdoms with wealth even approaching that. Also, Morgan? that's a european name, and the Kings and Chiefs if any would be the ones using the old traditional names.

posted 10-14-98 11:29 AM ET            

"I mean, the look of the guy is so african. An african businessman, in africa (I know, I have lived there) doesn't wear an african shirt, at least not the hybrid morgan is wearing...)."

The look ? Is there a typical african face ? AFAIK the ethnicities differ widely. And the dressing...well, you don't see to much, but as he is from Africa and is then operating globally, why not a hybrid style for him ?

"Look at the diamond mines thing... ... Why couldn't morgan have become rich in, say, Brewing, Manufacturing or Stockbroking? No,
he has to have the typical and in my opinion prejudiced occupations as described in the text."

He made his wealth in the early 20th century, I suppose. Currently, Africa doesn't have much industry (exception of south africa and africa north of the Sahara, but we are not talking about the latter, I think). I don't think this will change so rapidly, so it would be logical that he started with basic production (minerals).

"The "Prince" thing: I mean that there are very few actual kingdoms in africa (I can only think of swaziland as an example, which has a constitutional monarch like Sweden or England). Chiefdoms, however, are still present (a stereotyped word in itself). A son of a chief would not really be a prince in the meaning of Eddie Murphy's role in "Coming to America". In fact, I can only think of only a few traditional Chiefdoms with wealth even approaching that. Also, Morgan? that's a european name, and the Kings and Chiefs if any would be the ones using the old traditional names."

I'd think of a "chief" as well. Monarchies ? Well, I could think of Lesotho, but that's about it, I guess. There's no reason to believe he'd have to be a "pribce" in the meaning of an Eddie Murphy movie. He doesn't have to inherit the wealth. Morgan ? Why nopt a european name ? Maybe he just took that name for his business activities, who knows?

posted 10-14-98 11:59 AM ET            

this is the next century we are talking about. Seeing as collarless shirts and tab collars and such are resurging in the westren businessworld here and now, who can say what the corporate fashion of, what is is, 70 years from now will be?

posted 10-14-98 12:14 PM ET            

In what way is an african businessman against Stereotype? Who is really prejudiced here?

posted 10-14-98 01:36 PM ET            

Are you saying I'm stereotyping soemone ? Let's get this clear: It is a WIDELY-HELD stereotype that africans are incapable of succeeding in business (to put it quite extreme), but I never said it was MY view=stereotype. I don't know how this could be based on what I've said. An african industrialist is contrary to a WIDELY HELD stereotype, not to MY view. I'm repeating myself, but it seems to be necessary.

"I think it's great to have an african as a Faction leader. I just wish it wasn't the most evil one... :-|"

posted 10-14-98 01:55 PM ET            

I think that if you look at all of the Faction Leaders that they all exhibit "stereotyped" characteristics of national, racial or gender. They also all exhibit non-stereotypic traits. This is intentional allowing us to bring to these fictional personalities our understanding of their traits and backgrounds saving the creators extensive back-stories and allowing us to project and role-play.

Similarly, the Faction philosophies are mixtures of traits that we can identify with and/or find repellant. The way I interpret your reaction tOFfGI, is that you think that capitalism is evil therefore the capitalist is also evil. As you have notice from this BB, there are quite a few people who think that capitalism is not inherently evil and find Chair Morgan a heroic figure (btw, I am not one of those). I wholly agree with Roland in that I find some of the characteristics of other Faction leaders just as dangerous as CEO Morgan, especially Yang, Santiago and Saratov.

posted 10-14-98 03:06 PM ET            

Sorry, Roland, for the unsolicited attack on your objectivity. I hope no harm done.

posted 10-14-98 03:51 PM ET            

I also don't see Morgan as "evil". He's highly competitive, that's all. He just chose the business world (instead of a stereotypical basketball court) as his field of battle. Yes, he may be "corrupt", but one man's corruption may just be another man's definition of "the perks of being rich".

Look at any major Hollywood or Sports star who commits a criminal act. Very few ever see prison, most pay light fines. Does this make them corrupt? Morgan buying a few people and not getting caught is no different than the NZ All Blacks buying the occasional ref. (JUST KIDDING! :)

posted 10-15-98 04:44 AM ET            

Hmm... Skye, Santiago and Saratov may not be "nationality" stereotypes, but sort of philosophical stereotypes.

Skye: "treehugger"
Santiago: "warmongerer, or at least, survival-of-the-fittest"
Saratov: "mad - well, not mad, but "emotionally challanged" scientist"

The leaders have to represent a faction, that's why their characters are described in a rather simple manner. But I think firaxis have done a good job in avoiding or countering some stereotypes. If Morgan was the warmongerer, that would be closer to certain stereotypes than Santiago - a woman warmongerer wouldn't be on the list of usual stereotypes.