posted 08-30-99 08:39 AM ET        

So, what's with this censorship of sex in the States? It seems to me that, in US, people can be hacked, sliced, butchered into pieces in TV shows and news and not too many raises an eyebrow, but when people read in papers about the President having had sex in the White House, oh then, by God, the children must be protected and there seem to be a public outcry.

(I dunno if I'm exaggerating, but if I am, I'm sure someone will tell me so.)

posted 08-30-99 10:36 AM ET            

The problem arose in that he lied about it, encouraged others to lie about it, and in so doing, broke the law. In my mind this was not about sex so much as it was about the kind of character we want in a leader.

posted 08-30-99 12:03 PM ET            

I'd like to know from any non-US'ers what sex and violence level is standard for the airwaves in their country and what is publically thought to be going too far.

posted 08-30-99 12:21 PM ET            

If I have gotten it right, the movie Basic Instinct was heavily censored for adults in the US, which seems a bit much(way too much really). So the censorship doesn't only apply harshly to kids, it almost seems the censorship forces adults to be treated like kids(a "Europeanish" opinion I guess). I think that "Eyes Wide Shut" also being heavily censored?

Normally, not much nudity is seen in Sweden on daytime, but I have spotted some in TV series once or twice. I think sex is looked down upen if it becomes too vulgar or demeaning for one gender(=women).

posted 08-30-99 04:18 PM ET            

For example, American society frowns upon the game Kingpin not because you beat someone's head in with a pipe...but because you call him a m*****f***** as you do it.

Unfortunately, in America we sink to the lowest common denominator. Because people were too stupid to drive motorcycles without smashing in their brains, we made it a law to wear a helmet. Because people were too stupid to prevent kids from flying through windshields, we made car seats a law. And because parents are too stupid to monitor what the babysitter (television) is showing them, we create all these complicated ratings.

South Park is bad for kids??? Hmmm, must be why they put it on 10pm on a weeknight and 2am on a weekend. If your kids have first hand knowledge of South Park, should we blame the cable company or the government cause God knows we can't blame you for being a bad parent.

posted 08-30-99 04:45 PM ET            

Violence is a natural thing that is done from an young age. Rough-housing, tousling, fighting... that's all natural, and something many do from the time they can get around on their own... but sex is "something learned" and "of original sin', so it's got a stigmata. WWF isn't anything but a bunch of 5 or 6 year olds playing, on many levels... If you eliminate the "shockers" and those that try to play on erotisism to one degree or another, you are left with rough-housing and boistrous claims. Same thing that happens on the playground in first grade... only without the jumping from top of things (well, not more than once or twice) onto people, and slamming objects into them.

Sex is bad. Violence is natural. You'd have to attack the core religious and spiritual teachings to change that. They tried it in the 60's and see how much good it did the country...

posted 08-31-99 12:43 AM ET         

Needless to say we had to leave quit quickly before we lost our lunch, (but not after I checking out some of the other younger chicks on the beach!)

So as to why we sensor sex more in america just has to do with the way our nation is. No one in the right mind would go to beach and flop around naked with their family, but you crazy Europeans dont mind.

God I still cant believe you go to the beachs buck nude with your own family. That is just not right.

posted 08-31-99 04:53 AM ET            

Your story seem a bit unusual, and I don't think would happen very often in Sweden(or in Germany for that matter) so you're overgeneralizing grossly. I didn't think you meant topless by nude? I, for example, even if alone would prefer not to sit nude on the beach with my parents(ugh... ), but I'm more thinking that this has something to do with that nudity is taught to be so forbidden. And that I could be repressed over nothing.

Parents dress and undress in secret terribly afraid that their kids will see how they were born - nude. No wonder nudity becomes such a sanctity and never something that is in the least natural. If a kid sees a parent nude, his first encounter with that nudity is how uncomfortable that perent is. Not a good way to start, huh?

I will stay open minded about that event in Germany long enough to ask you why you think it is important for that German family, if they would be alone, to be "afraid" of each other's nudity? Why must one make such a big deal about it really? I know I'm not comfortable with my family's nudity, but I am wise enough to know that what society makes you think sometimes can be a load of horse**** in disguise.

posted 08-31-99 06:02 AM ET            

Sex is considered "Of Original Sin" by the Conservatives. Listen to what they SAY, repeatily... Eve messed up... she was super cursed for it, Adam just got dragged down for being a dumb a**. Of course, he COULDN'T help it, as he was innocent and guiless, being of original Grace and Purity at the time (IE A Naive Dumb A**!). The first thing they did when kicked out of the Garden was make children... so guess what get's arrived at? I realize that "Original Sin" is in it's truest Christian sense only of children born out of wedlock... whether rape or just not waiting, but I have a hard time accepting that some children are not as innocent as others... goes against my Idealism. But we all have "Original Sin" and must have that washed away in Christening/Baptism and what not according to several BRANCHES of Christianity.

Why is Sex bad? Well, it's NOT (or not much) if you are a boy... just a GIRL. Their are several REASONS for it, and with Teen Pregnacy rather high, I doubt that's going to change. Also, most parents REALLY don't want their children growing up, and ever little delay is a Victory against time to many.

Nudity being bad is something learned. And for examples of learning... when I was about 5 years old, I remember helping my grandmother out in the spring with her gardening. Suddenly, she freaked out and killed a small snake. Up to that point, I had NO FEAR of snakes. I had been growing up with neighbors that had them. I asked my Grandmother why she was so scared, and she explained that snakes are bad and dangerous, and can kill you. That incident so impressed upon me, that I gained a fear of the beast. Totally unrealistic, but a simple learned response from one of the most trusted teachers of my life.

Nudism, Bad attitudes, most of that is learned from your teaching models ACTIONS. It's easy to say one thing, but if you act another, the message get's through... And children excel in learning by imitation.

Sex is bad due to simple prudishness that has been passed down and occassionally reinforced along the line.

posted 08-31-99 07:45 AM ET            

As I recall:

(1) God commanded all creatures to multiply.

(2) There's no statement in the Bible that sex was any part of the first sin.

(3) The world was destroyed by a Flood because of its (wait for it) Violence.

(4) According to the New Testament, The Five Cities of the Dead Sea (Sodom, Gomorrah, etc) had three very serious sins: sexual perversion (which was bad), violence (which was worse), and a lack of compassion (which doomed them).

On the question of whether woman was to blame more than man for the Fall, according to the NIV:

"... she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

Rather remiss of Adam to stand there the whole time and say nothing!

Sins of omission have beset men ever since - as women continually remind.

And then Adam uncritically copied his wife's error.

Evidently if people thought for themselves, instead of heeding deceitful words and stupidly copying each other, we wouldn't land our species in hot water.

"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; ..."

So it was only when both disobeyed that the consequences began. So all Adam had to do was to say no.

But not only was Adam as weak-willed as his wife, but he was just as unwilling to accept responsibility for his own actions.

Many of the Pharisees repudiated the warning that they received, preferring to accuse others of moral defects, instead of correcting their own faults.

The received version of the "core religious and spiritual teachings" is unbiblical, in fact they're anti-biblical, just as they were when the Pharisees spouted them.

Where I think the 60's went awry is that the hippies lacked both concentration and consistency. They complained of the bombing and burning of Vietnam, but poisoned their own bodies and brains and added to pollution by smoking "alternative" cigarettes. How can a person claim to love others, when they don't even respect their own health?

The outcome of that generation is that the destructive self-indulgence of the political and military leaders spread to the general population, and has spread its spurious and elaborate moralistic tone into every sphere of human existence.

posted 08-31-99 12:13 PM ET            

Let us just say that this: Any sexual relations OUTSIDE Holy Wedlock is a perversion on the scale of coupling with animals. Fornication, Sodomy, you name it. The Sin Stigmata is only removed from sexual acts when the Church blesses the wedding of the two people. Children concieved out of wedlock have that stigmata attached to them. Children concieved IN the bonds of wedlock do not have any more original sin then Adam, if male, or Eve, if female.

In Genesis, Adam was not with Eve. The Serpeant calls to her when she is away from Adam, and since she doesn't have his support (naive as it would be), she decides wrongly, and eats of the Fruit. Now, aware and naked, but not wishing to be the only one in the world, she goes back, and works the Serpeants Will, as the first human tool of Evil and Deceipt, and convinces Adam to do so. As her partner and companion, he hasn't a chance against her... and women have been decieving men ever since, and most men continue to prove their loyalty to thier companion by doing things they have been told not to.

Now, big disclaimer... this, as what I said before, is what the CONSERVATIVES and thier SPIRITUAL CULTURE in the USoA teach. I am not saying I believe it. But it is what is taught in the churches, sunday school, normal school (by the majority of teachers when gotten to religious matters), televised and preached.

No where is violence a sin, or taught that, except when used to break a commandment. Of course, that means violence is bad when employed on a neighbor or brother (all of humanity) according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, but that isn't Old Testament.

As I said, and will say again, I was merely pointing out where the *teachings* reinforce this idea of sex bad, violence ok. If you want to debate Holy Book and Scriptures versus other Holy Books and Scriptures (or itself), you will have to find someone willing to do so. I am not familiar enough to properly defend or attack based on it.

posted 08-31-99 01:41 PM ET            

Would they (the media) do this? Hell no. So there's plenty of folks in the USA who aren't prudish by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that there's a quite arbitrary and illogical set of rules in place as to what can or can't be presented. I don't see anybody destroying this in the near future. It would take balls of steel to beat the 10%ers and the 85%ers.

posted 08-31-99 03:18 PM ET         

I just thought you lot might find that amusing

Anyway it can, under certain conditions be hazardous.

Especially your partners someone elses partner

Beta-1

posted 08-31-99 03:47 PM ET            

Frankly, you seem to be accepting the image of Christians that the ACLU and their ilk spoonfeeds. (Nice stereotyping job, BTW.)

posted 08-31-99 06:21 PM ET            

Yes, the ACLU is extremely strong in these parts. But, when I was up and aroung Boston, I heard stronger stuff being taught in the Catholic tradition, both in private schools and in workshops.

If your teachers claimed Adam was a equally to blame as Eve, they must have been all ladies... I've yet to meet a old school preacher that believed that. Maybe because they are men?

Mind you, my personal beliefs are a LONG way away from that. But you lump me in it, and my hackles might get up over it...

posted 09-01-99 08:57 AM ET            

Nope.

As for what the students thought (this was at the junior high level), the girls' reaction was "Ha, I told you!" and the boys' was "Aww, rats."

posted 09-01-99 05:30 PM ET            

MikeH: Nooo!

Oh oh..

posted 09-02-99 04:40 AM ET            

Cat, since you have been brought up in such strict(evil ) moral codes it would be interesting to know how you and/or your home community regard nudity and sex...

And um, to those think I should have posted this in Off-topic:

A/ Have you ever seen me post there (it has happened twice I think)

B/ Does anyone post there no more?

C/ All the people I know post only here

posted 09-02-99 10:50 AM ET            

Perhaps if you posted to the Off-Topic list more often, this list would not be cluttered with your Off-Topic ravings.

>
B/ Does anyone post there no more?
<

It's exactly that attitude that keeps the Off-Topic list quiet. Perhaps a less hypocritical attitude is warranted.

>
C/ All the people I know post only here
<

See above... If you are as well liked as you believe yourself to be, I'm sure that if you start posting to the Off-Topic list, "all the people you know", will join you there to read your political NON-SMAC messages.

>
D/ If you really dislike this post, avoid it, there aren't that many off-topic posts in here but they will surface no matter how much you will complain (except you, Cat )
<

I never claimed I didn't like your post. The Topic is very worthy of discussion. However, a forum related to the discussion of SMAC is NOT the appropriate place to post it.

posted 09-02-99 11:31 AM ET            

You basically mean, that if I want to ask the people I know here an off-topic question, I will have to go to a political forum(as you said in your first post) and mail all the people to come there, or as you put it start posting in off-topic where no one even looks anymore? More exactly, no one I know here have ever posted(a slight exaggeration) there. Furthermore, you have a problem interpreting the word "all", it doesn't have to mean I know 300 hundred people, just "all three" I know.

This is all a worthwhile crusade, Ballpark, but it's getting tiresome. Can't you post a protest in the off topic instead, or perhaps have it out in a new post here in this forum. A post preferably directed at all the people who has at any time posted a topic in the Game forum which has nothing to do with SMAC. I'm sure they are all like you, and have never ever posted an off-topic in here(well at least 5% of all the posters).

And honestly, one or two off-topic posts usually adds a little spice to this forum, most think so.

Almost everyone else seem to accept it in here once in a while, why can't you? Are you a control freak? Or really, does this subject upset you more than you would like to admit?

posted 09-02-99 02:37 PM ET         

Now about the nudity topic. Nudity is nothing, just you without your clothes. That is what nudity should be referred as. Don't say "bad", or your "child" will want to see such things. "Nudity" is lusted by many people because it's something they "shoudn't see". If everyone were to come out the door completely naked, would you still have a desire to see them naked? No. So it's just pyschology that draws them.

Child (pyschologist),
ajli@home

posted 09-03-99 06:03 AM ET            

As for what I've been taught, it's that sex outside of marriage is wrong. I came to my own conclusions about nudity, and I believe that it influences people to commit adultery, as well as promoting only the lustful aspects of sex, and none of the more important, more lasting qualities (true love and commitment). From a non-moral standpoint, I personally find porn to be disgusting, and wonder why a person is so desperate that they have to be stimulated by images of a total stranger.

As for the "real-world" repercussions, I'd say it's pretty much a fact that "One man with one woman" equals virtually no problem with STDs.

Although I'm not exactly a big fan of violence either, a teenager who watches a nudie movie is a lot more likely to be influenced to go have sex, than someone who sees a violent movie will be influenced to go on a killing spree.

I should point out that I don't believe that the government should have the power to keep people from seeing these things. The only ones who should have the power of censorship are parents over their children.

So in summary, I believe that nudity/sex outside of marriage is wrong because:

posted 09-03-99 11:14 AM ET            

Listen to yourself. "Mom, everyone else is jumping off the cliff to their death, why can't I?" I can't stop anyone from being your lemming. It's their choice. I won't stop them, but Don't get angry when I point out to them how stupid it is.

"This way to the Egress --->>>" - P.T.Barnum

>
Are you a control freak?
<

NO, I'm not the "control freak" you may believe me to be. Is this a label you seek to put on people that have valid, reasonable disagreements with you?

>
Or really, does this subject upset you more than you would like to admit?
<

I guess you don't read messages in their entirety either. I refuse to repeat myself again. You can read my messages from above for yourself. I posted them on 08-31-99 08:38 AM ET & 09-02-99 10:50 AM ET. Check them out. Read and learn...

posted 09-03-99 02:46 PM ET            

Btw, I read your message and got it, I just thought there was a chance you were hiding something because you sounded so upset. It sounded kinda silly someone who has been here for so long to be upset at an off-topic at this time, after so many ppl has posted off-topics.

To tell youy the truth, if you go on like this in every off-topic post in here then maybe you can ruin the forum for enough of those bandits to make them leave. I'm sure the forum will be all empty and boring.

So, I apologize for making an off-topic post in here.

I apologize you could not avoid it.

You were right all the time, you had of course every right there was to ruin it when quite a few ppl here enjoyed it.