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Author Topic:   Programmers r people 2

Inix posted 08-05-99 06:16 PM ET
I read that JKM post to and here is my take on it. When people complain alot about bugs and stuff, its like calling a new mother's baby ugly. I mean, these programmers put so many hours of work into thier product, so much effort, when people complain too much about the game im sure at least on some level it hurts. I used to read NextGen, a gammer mag, and it sometimes had interviews with video game programmers. My impression of vid game programmers, at least the programmers that make awesome games like SMAC, is that they really, really, really try to make a good game. And that they do care about the quality of the game an such. So by constantly pooring on the criticism u might actually be self defeating in your attemps to get more patch's. People, programmers included, can only take so much critisism. Analyst, i read your posts and i can somewhat understand the frustration your speaking of, but what about the frustration of the programmers? I mean, they have made four (4)!!! patchs! I would not call that a "quick fix". I wonder if these guys r at the point now were they r too disguraged they dont even read these forums anymore or r so overwhelmed by the criticism and biting sarcasm that thy r just like " ok, screw it, no matter how hard we try, they're just gonna bitch anyway so why bother we cant make em happy".
HOWEVER. I DO think that JKM's assurtion that "we like bug's cause it give's us somethin to talk about" is goofy. I also think his assurtion that the people who post here spend more time posting than playing is wildly inaccurate. I spend WAY more time playing than reading post or even web surfing. I c the web as a means for online gamming (i.e. SC/BW and Quake/HL when i get a better connection) and as a way to make games better(i.e. strats, patches, FAQ's, Q&A's ect). I use the web for games not play games so i can have crap to type about in forums an stuff. I come here to read strats and find out how people might do things in a better way than i do them or give advice/opinion on somethin when its asked for. Thier is alot of good stuff in these forums and bug posts r certinly in the minority.
Btw i dont think that SMAC's bugs r a big deal, the cities sometimes half disapppear but its nbd to me, it doesnt affect the game much.
Darkstar posted 08-05-99 06:29 PM ET
Inix... The criticism was focused at JM, and his department... QA. Not the programmers. His article was one big song and dance of "its not MY fault. Its yours." If I were more cynical, I'd think the bit about the expressive fans doing nothing but criticising his efforts be a Machivelli tactic to side-track most people into flaming him about it. That lets him ignore it, and justify to all the outside parties that he's right and we are just no-life whiners.
-Darkstar
Zoetrope posted 08-06-99 08:46 AM ET
Someone in these forums recently used the term "prima donna programmer". I hope that's not accurate.
Iniz: mother loves her new baby, but if a doctor points out that it has a correctable heart complaint or a cleft palette, she doesn't say "how dare you accuse my baby of that?", instead she is saddened but wants baby mended!
I've spent years on software, then received dozens of letters pointing out its errors. What do I do? I study them, and fix them.
If a user makes a mistake, I point out (in a firendly way, I hope) what the mistake is.
We all make mistakes, the question is, do we want to ride away on our high horse Phantom Pride, or stay and do the hard yakka to correct them?
The community have always been appreciative of honesty in a supplier. Their happiness in a product well made is a welcome supplement to the other rewards, and the mutual willingness to discuss apparent design and implementation flaws is a healthy tonic and a well of inspiration for continuing improvements.
On reflection, maybe one problem with games is that the makers of games see them as ephemeral, whereas many in the gameplaying community want a game that will mature like a vintage wine.
Scientific software, by contrast, is intended to be used, developed, and built upon for decades. (Think of Spice, Matlab and Maple.)
Incidentally, Civ2 began to come close to the latter model, with the numerous modpacks, scenarios, and fifty-plus patches.
Zoetrope posted 08-06-99 08:47 AM ET
"firendly"?
SMACTrek posted 08-06-99 09:16 AM ET
I think we have a new term....
Darkstar posted 08-07-99 04:57 AM ET
Z, I used the term "prima donna programmer". Its nothing new in describing certain programmers. Those are the sorts that cause personality conflicts in team environments. They also generally can't take having anyone even SUGGEST their stuff might not be 100 perfect out of the compiler, first pass ever. You sound like you are in the industry. Surely, you have know a couple. They used to be more common, but as Programming and Software Engineering has changed from a rare mystical art to a simple Artist endevour, companies can afford to NOT employ them so often. So most are seen in senior staff and in small companies where they are tolerated for political or economic reasons.
-Darkstar
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Author	Topic: Programmers r people 2
Inix	posted 08-05-99 06:16 PM ET I read that JKM post to and here is my take on it. When people complain alot about bugs and stuff, its like calling a new mother's baby ugly. I mean, these programmers put so many hours of work into thier product, so much effort, when people complain too much about the game im sure at least on some level it hurts. I used to read NextGen, a gammer mag, and it sometimes had interviews with video game programmers. My impression of vid game programmers, at least the programmers that make awesome games like SMAC, is that they really, really, really try to make a good game. And that they do care about the quality of the game an such. So by constantly pooring on the criticism u might actually be self defeating in your attemps to get more patch's. People, programmers included, can only take so much critisism. Analyst, i read your posts and i can somewhat understand the frustration your speaking of, but what about the frustration of the programmers? I mean, they have made four (4)!!! patchs! I would not call that a "quick fix". I wonder if these guys r at the point now were they r too disguraged they dont even read these forums anymore or r so overwhelmed by the criticism and biting sarcasm that thy r just like " ok, screw it, no matter how hard we try, they're just gonna bitch anyway so why bother we cant make em happy". HOWEVER. I DO think that JKM's assurtion that "we like bug's cause it give's us somethin to talk about" is goofy. I also think his assurtion that the people who post here spend more time posting than playing is wildly inaccurate. I spend WAY more time playing than reading post or even web surfing. I c the web as a means for online gamming (i.e. SC/BW and Quake/HL when i get a better connection) and as a way to make games better(i.e. strats, patches, FAQ's, Q&A's ect). I use the web for games not play games so i can have crap to type about in forums an stuff. I come here to read strats and find out how people might do things in a better way than i do them or give advice/opinion on somethin when its asked for. Thier is alot of good stuff in these forums and bug posts r certinly in the minority. Btw i dont think that SMAC's bugs r a big deal, the cities sometimes half disapppear but its nbd to me, it doesnt affect the game much.
Darkstar	posted 08-05-99 06:29 PM ET Inix... The criticism was focused at JM, and his department... QA. Not the programmers. His article was one big song and dance of "its not MY fault. Its yours." If I were more cynical, I'd think the bit about the expressive fans doing nothing but criticising his efforts be a Machivelli tactic to side-track most people into flaming him about it. That lets him ignore it, and justify to all the outside parties that he's right and we are just no-life whiners. -Darkstar
Zoetrope	posted 08-06-99 08:46 AM ET Someone in these forums recently used the term "prima donna programmer". I hope that's not accurate. Iniz: mother loves her new baby, but if a doctor points out that it has a correctable heart complaint or a cleft palette, she doesn't say "how dare you accuse my baby of that?", instead she is saddened but wants baby mended! I've spent years on software, then received dozens of letters pointing out its errors. What do I do? I study them, and fix them. If a user makes a mistake, I point out (in a firendly way, I hope) what the mistake is. We all make mistakes, the question is, do we want to ride away on our high horse Phantom Pride, or stay and do the hard yakka to correct them? The community have always been appreciative of honesty in a supplier. Their happiness in a product well made is a welcome supplement to the other rewards, and the mutual willingness to discuss apparent design and implementation flaws is a healthy tonic and a well of inspiration for continuing improvements. On reflection, maybe one problem with games is that the makers of games see them as ephemeral, whereas many in the gameplaying community want a game that will mature like a vintage wine. Scientific software, by contrast, is intended to be used, developed, and built upon for decades. (Think of Spice, Matlab and Maple.) Incidentally, Civ2 began to come close to the latter model, with the numerous modpacks, scenarios, and fifty-plus patches.
Zoetrope	posted 08-06-99 08:47 AM ET "firendly"?
SMACTrek	posted 08-06-99 09:16 AM ET I think we have a new term....
Darkstar	posted 08-07-99 04:57 AM ET Z, I used the term "prima donna programmer". Its nothing new in describing certain programmers. Those are the sorts that cause personality conflicts in team environments. They also generally can't take having anyone even SUGGEST their stuff might not be 100 perfect out of the compiler, first pass ever. You sound like you are in the industry. Surely, you have know a couple. They used to be more common, but as Programming and Software Engineering has changed from a rare mystical art to a simple Artist endevour, companies can afford to NOT employ them so often. So most are seen in senior staff and in small companies where they are tolerated for political or economic reasons. -Darkstar