posted 07-05-99 02:21 AM ET        

__________
==>1<==

***-7) There should be a way to see other players' Social Engineering settings, especially since the AI can see mine and gets pissed off over it. THE FIX: Infiltration or being elected Governor allow you to see these things.***

"You can now see AI player's social engineering settings."

__________
==>2<==

***2) SINGULARITY BUG. Late in the game, with much eco-damage and lots of AAA stasis infantry with the singularity engine, it is a severe problem. Hordes of mindworms and locusts appear and attack your bases. But your expensive AAA stasis infantry is actually WEAKER against mind worms than a simple scout infantry. THE FIX: Please change the Singularity rating to 40.***

"Singularity reactors now have 40 HP, so they are balanced in psi combat."

__________
==>3<==

***[Pending Confirmation] The unlimited conventional missile "bug." I believe saved games containing this problem have already been sent.***

"The AI no longer can use missiles beyond their designated range."

__________
==>4, 5<==

***1) SELF-AWARE COLONY AND SPACE ELEVATOR: They do not work as advertised: The SAC only halves costs in the base in which it is built, and the SE does not double the production rate while producing satellites, nor does it halve the cost of satellites being built. THE FIX: Obvious.***

"The Self-Aware Colony now correctly halves maintenance."

"The Space Elevator now correctly doubles mineral production when building satellites."

__________
==>6<==

***0) The "drop transport loses its cargo after a drop" bug. Load a drop transport, drop it, and it lands empty. THE FIX: Obvious.***

"Airdropped transports no longer leave cargo behind."

__________
==>7<==

***-8) The player can infiltrate enemy datalinks and take control of the governor settings. The temptation is there. THE FIX: Obvious.***

"You can no longer switch the AI's governor settings from the F4 screen."

__________

Then they added:

FIXES

� Units should no longer switch their home bases automatically.
� The game no longer locks up when all players choose factions in a MP scenario that aren't present and END OF TURN is selected.
� If you zoom to a base from the F4 Base Operations screen, when you return to the F4 screen you can now use the PgUp and PgDn hotkeys to scroll the window.
� Loading a map in the scenario editor after generating one now updates the minimap.
� You can no longer use long-range fire via right-click when out of range of the target.
� Automated formers no longer build bunkers prior to having the required technology.

ADDITIONS\ENHANCEMENTS
� Check out the new landmark: the Manifold Nexus, a ruined remnant of an extensive alien complex with a mysterious relationship to the Planet itself. The faction possessing the Nexus inside its territory enjoys an improved relationship with Planet (+1 on the Social Engineering scale).
� Wheelmouse support implemented for most listboxes and when picking production choices.
_________

What's my verdict? They listened. Together, the fans and Firaxis helped make SMAC a better game.

posted 07-05-99 02:41 AM ET            

So no, if that is all that is being addressed in this 3rd patch, I don't believe Firaxis paid any attention to the efforts their customers put into trying to make this a great game. If Firaxis is willing to settle for a mediocre product, then they will have to deal with an ever decreasing customer base.

Why was another landmark made? The map does not need another landmark. This is something that could be included in SMACx. V4.0 is suppose to be a patch, not an enhancement. A patch fixes bugs, and bugs that should have been addressed in the first patch, are still going to be present. I am not impressed that they can add a landmark. BFD! If Firaxis thinks that the players will bow down and kiss their toe ring in grattitude becaue they altered the map instead of fixing the game stopping bugs, then they are sadly mistaken.

Then again, maybe they hit the nail right on the head.

posted 07-05-99 02:52 AM ET            

Thanks for the reminder of what was on the list. Appreciated.

Does Firaxis listen? Obviously. They banned Trippin Daily. That proved it there. The whole missile affair shows they listened.

How much is Firaxis willing to do to make us happy/content seems to be the better question.

CousLee, the added the new landmark so that its an enhancement. Not a patch. It probably was something they wanted to put in initially, or something to act as a further teaser for SMACX. Time will tell.

I wonder what OTHER bugs got fixed. How about that annoying Borehole interval that is shown whenever ANYONE approaches it, rather than you? That wasn't mentioned, but I expect it was fixed. Its just that kind of embarassment.

You are right... with a list of 300 or 400 bugs, they had a large range of bugs to hunt. Let's see what got fixed that wasn't mentioned...

posted 07-05-99 03:08 AM ET            

But, I have to be on cousLee's side about this: What about all the *other* bugs ? I understand they can't stretch time, and they might have other projects to work on, but I still feel more could have been included in this patch.

For me, SMAC does not qualify as shelfware at all. I love the game, even with all the imperfections.

posted 07-05-99 03:20 AM ET            

I agree that there are a lot more bugs that need to be fixed. One can only hope that v5.0 or SMACX will do just that.

I can say that if v4.0 doesn't fix the "root directory" save problem in PBEM, it will be another big disappointment. I remember that Fixaxis indicated that that bug would be fixed in v3.0!!

Time will tell, I suppose.

posted 07-05-99 03:32 AM ET            

I had thought that Jeff had posted the new text of the readme. But there might be more. I guess we won't know until it is released. Or a FirXn tells us.

posted 07-05-99 04:09 AM ET            

JAMiAM

posted 07-05-99 04:30 AM ET            

Trust me. I am NOT saying we should worship Firaxis for fixing problems that never should have been there in the first place (let alone made it past patch 3.0). Nor am I saying that they addressed ALL the problems. Certainly they have not.

Our list of problems began a few days after 3.0 was released after we could see what was still left to be done. Looking back at the list we made, many of the real problems we outlined were fixed, as I showed above. This current HUGE list of issues still to be fixed came much later, after the 4.0 patch was perhaps already in its 'sign-off' stage; thus, to expect those to be addressed in 4.0 is unreasonable. Of course, there are DAY 1 issues that I suspect are still lingering around, but I'm sure limited time and resources have kept those from being fixed.

But what I hope to express here is that a well-organized and prioritized patch list WILL be looked at carefully by Firaxis. But be careful: If it runs into 100+ items, it's too overwhelming and looks like nit-picking (which isn't bad in and of itself, but you have to go with what will get you the most of what you want). As Chris Pine later told me: Separate actual bugs from hoped-for enhancements because enhancements are low-priority for SMAC (and SMACX?) at this point (this latest enhancement was planned a long time ago, I'm sure). In other words, find and list the top "This Has GOT to be Fixed" issues.

Of course, I wish SMAC hadn't been released with so many problems. Having to wait until 4.0 for missile fixes and for other basic game issues to work as advertised didn't do anybody any good. That's life. I'm more upset that we were (still are) kept in the dark about so many things, but I've complained about that enough to last me the rest of the year.

posted 07-05-99 04:47 AM ET            

As you say, "Separate actual bugs from hoped-for enhancements because enhancements are low-priority for SMAC (and SMACX?) at this point", then why were resources used to include a new landmark? If it's such low priority.

I don't buy that sign-off stage crap. When evidence of bugs has been submitted by your customers, sign-on the thing or whatever you want to call it (re-call comes to mind). Find (easier since you have examples) and fix the BUGS.

posted 07-05-99 05:03 AM ET            

First, I want to point out that the reason they don't release the readme or other info about the products (statuses) very often is that we go over it with a fine toothed comb. And celebrate. And then picked apart and rolled over the coals.

Second, it would be nice to think they have been busting their butt adding in bug fixes, I don't think its true. From what we saw from Firaxian posting (Jeff, Chris, and Tim), they worked about 3 weeks on this patch, tops, and sent it on. Then started concentrating on Civ3, Sid3, and SMACX. We have been waiting for over 12 weeks (I think) on this thing. Why? Slow and low priority. Patch 3 works. So, slow in being translated and tested. Other things had priority past Firaxis would be my bet. And with some experience with international computer products, I can easily believe its taken them this long to get it passed through the hoops. Lost paper work, lost articles, misunderstandings, lost time due to people out sick or on vacation, personal spitting contest... you name it.

Third, patches are an admittance of imperfection (Value Failure). Enhancements are Value ADDED products. So they give us a new shiny bell and whistle or two, and can claim that its not a patch. Its an ENHANCEMENT as they have added new things. Its SOMANTICS, but that is important to some people. The added bene will be a higher traffic rate to their sites, an increase in SMAC interest, increased traffic HERE about strategies and effects... yadda yadda yadda.

Fourth, they won't be able to say that the list in Readme 4 is a complete list, merely a partial. There is no telling what other bugs or oddities was fixed and forgotten to be coordinated into the patch readme update. And they don't want to look like idiots either. If they have a list of 50 bugs fixed, you'd think they were absolute idiots. That wouldn't be true, but that is the way it would be percieved by many.

Glad to see you stopping by CousLee.

posted 07-05-99 05:32 AM ET            

cousLee,

That landmark enhancement, like Darkstar says, was part of their planning from the start. Just like the Borehole Cluster. It's not like they said: "Hey, we've been really piss-poor lately, so let's invent something totally new and surprise those guys." It's Firaxis' version of TA's 'a new unit a week' ploy--planned months and months ago. So it took nothing extra for them to put in it because it was already programmed.

But I'm with you all on hoping that we'll get the patch and 50 extra things will be fixed. There's no harm in dreaming.

posted 07-05-99 06:11 AM ET            

Calling this an enhancement because of map alteration, (matters not if it was planned) is insulting. Using the list given, you have 2 enhancements (wheel mouse, and landmark) and 12 fixes. (wheel mouse support could be considered a fix also). Just on the sheer diffrence in numbers, this is a patch. So please spare me the "enhancements" argument.

And being a patch, (glad to see it's comming soon) I questioned if the dirty dozen were the only fixes.

posted 07-05-99 11:36 AM ET            

What I personally think is a load of crap is that the singularity bug was there from the beginning, but I won't start whining about **** like that. At least they fixed it. One of the bugs fixed now did actually 'bug' me a lot. That of switching home bases...

BUT, it seems they do listen and that is great. But I guess I'm not all that for singing halleluja anyway. I will do that, however, if they test their next game properly and remove all the bugs that make the company look silly. Or at least try.

posted 07-05-99 12:34 PM ET            

I have to wonder if this patch has the Air Unit Strategy upgrades and the Marine Operations upgrade? We have heard that they WERE going to touch up the A-not-I to better utilize its Air Units and perform Invasions. Or will that be SMACX?

posted 07-05-99 01:14 PM ET            

1. That is the complete readme.txt text of the v4 fixes. I think it likely that either Brian or Chris made fixes without notifying me, so there may very well be more that those listed.

2. The v4 fixes were made at the time of Yin's helpful list, which this entire BBS contributed to. It was the must-fix list of the biggest problems and we took that to be the case. Some were suggestions, but we fixed those that were legit bugs. It is critical that code work stop on one version when it enters test, since a simulatneous release of 5 languages takes a lot of time and resources. As others have alluded to, we can't resubmit every week when someone posts a new bug. It would result in a restarting of the entire process, one that can easily take over a month. We went with the assumption that the list of "must-fix" bugs were in fact "must-fix".

3. The "easy-to-read" buglist in the troubleshooting forum is up to about 164 now (Darkstar: Where is 300-400 coming from. I not being "smart" here, just wondering if I'm missing a huge list somewhere). Some of those are fixed in v4, some are dupes, some are not-bugs (being dispelled by other forum users), some are suggestions, and some are hardly "show-stoppers". There are legit ones to be sure, but they were posted well after v4 was well into test. We'll definately look at them for future versions.

jkm

firaxis games

posted 07-05-99 06:46 PM ET            

4) AIRCRAFT: When you set your aircraft to "Shift L," they will see enemies and go after them but only fire at defenseless vehicles, i.e. Formers and Colony Pods. They will SEE and go after mindworms and troops but not attack them. Whenever your own transports are near any of your own bases when you have aircraft set to Shift-L, ALL Aircraft go after the transports like they think it is an enemy transport. Also, the GO-TO command for aircraft is now faulty: A needlejet that is told to go to a friendly base that is maxrange or maxrange-1 (but it would make it in 2 turns) will turn around and go to the nearest base you own on the second turn. Finally, aircraft and copters stop unnecessarily in cities when on the go-to order or on auto-forward.
THE FIX: Obvious.

Although that one is irritating, it's not a killer problem.

-1) When playing hotseat/PBEM and you use probe team actions that cause the message "stern warning or cancel pact/treaty," the message and choice is given to the attacker, not the faction being probed. The attackee never receives any notification they were probe attacked. Also, when playing hotseat/PBEM commlinks for all players shouldn't be available before you make contact with them.
THE FIX: Obvious.

O.K. That could cause some problems in PBEM.

-2) The "unending loan repayment" loophole--AI factions will continue to make loans payments to a player long after the [originally] agreed upon amount has been met. Loans can stretch for centuries and pay back into the deep negatives [i.e., far beyond what was originally owed].
THE FIX: Obvious.

Again, not a huge problem there.
__________
Below are all the people who helped put this list together:

THE PATCH 4 TEAM (in order of appearance from the first thread):

Soulfire
Q Cubed
trippin daily
Glak
Xerxes314
Rong
Shining1
Imran Siddiqui
Bossman
micje
cousLee
HMFIC
edromia
CraigW
Schoop
Goobmeister
Wen_Amon
Tarot242
bene4
Thue
Sharky
doctormm
Ronbo
Druid
Possibility
Black Dragon
ViVicdi
licha
korn469
ProximaCentauri
Darkstar
Victor
Lee Johnson
Celestial_Dawn
quizara tafwid
umbra1
Aredhran
Analyst
LackOfKnack
Borodino
JaimeWolf
woodelf
MoSe
McGeorge
Thrr Mezaz
Mcerion
CrayonX
Valtarien
dbrodale
Xipe
jazzfan27
Shadow_cse1
Rathenn
starscream
maxpublic
Zoetrope
HughTheHand
__________

At the time, this list absolutely represented the issues we felt were most important and needed immediate fixing. Looking at the VERY few things Firaxis didn't fix, I'm actually quite startled at what a difference our list made and how closely it was followed by Firaxis.

Now, rather than crying about it, look at the facts: Firaxis fixed almost every serious bug we asked them to. What more do you want? I grant you, a perfect game from DAY 1 is ideal, but it's rare if non-existent. To blame Firaxis for not fixing issues that people came up with AFTER we sent this list and AFTER v4.0 was already in its language stage is simply whining.

So, go back to the 100+ list, take out feature requests and things that aren't really bugs. Prioritize it--try to cut out anything else that isn't very serious, and send it to Firaxis. They've already proven that they'll listen.

posted 07-05-99 06:56 PM ET            

I need to compare and collate the Yin list against the Alkis list. There are some repeats and some enhancements request that need to be tossed, but the last time I did a comparison, it was about a little over 300 unique bugs/strange behavior. (I HAD planned on putting a known bug list together for a fan AC site and have sidetracked). Since several of the bugs have been called "disproved" but I have experienced them, its hard to take our word on if a bug ISN'T in the game. Guess that means its hard to take our word that is in the game as well, without a sav of it. (That was when the Alkis list was at 145 or so reported items.)

I do know that for every bug I report that is unique, I am still skipping mentioning 5 to 9 more, Jeff. Most of those have yet to hit the Alkis list. So, 400 bugs may be out of the line, but not by too much. There are still many odd things that need resolution from the raving fanatics point of veiw. There will probably be another bug list after 4.0's release that will be built here, in hopes of the SMACX effort being able to weed those out.

posted 07-05-99 07:38 PM ET            

By the way, I don't see your name on that list. Curious. So, you either:

1) Were around then but were "too busy" to actually be helpful, or

2) Weren't around then and thus have not one idea what you are talking about when you unilaterally state that these fixes are of no use "to most other SMACers."

Unless all those people who helped make that list are not representative of "most SMACers," you have essentially proven that you feel that the only "important" issues are the ones you dream up alone in your bedroom.

I'd like to challenge you, chagarra: I challenge you to take the lead in sending the Patch 5.0/SMACX list of fixes to Firaxis. Be careful. It means you actually have to understand what "most SMACers" think is important, and you'll actually have to put some work into it.

posted 07-05-99 07:48 PM ET            

RIGHT.

I'll judge patch 4 when I see the UK version but from your description it looks a fair effort.

We can all talk of ideals, and maybe there are those who'll scream at me for this, but this forum is rather in danger of becoming a dry out house for whingers, whiners and those who just want an audience for their statements that they wao't play the game/have deinstalled it etc.

Let's just say a small thanx to Firaxis for showing some response to the consumers. Oh, and also for those that contributed to prioritising the bug reports to Firaxis.

posted 07-05-99 08:33 PM ET            

That's the background of the bug list. Of course I' m aware that some of the bugs listed there are not real. Also, some are unimportant. There are a few serious ones though.

About the company it's good that they release patches for their game but it would be better if they included fixes for more bugs in version4. For the serious ones at least. The question (to them) is, do you wonna make patches for ever??

posted 07-05-99 09:04 PM ET            

Item 1
"You can now see AI player's social engineering settings."
That's a nice one. We wanted it. That goes into the Good column.
Running Count: 1 Good.

Missile fix may not be a big deal to him. IT certainly wasn't to many people from the contravorsy we saw. Maybe he likes small quick games. So, let's split the difference between great and no big deal. That's only good.
Running Count: 2 Good.

Singularity = 40 HP. Low to mid tech games... Singularity fix is worthless. So, this is a Hi Tech Builder. That is not that common a SMAC user... No Big Deal then.
Running Count: 1 No Big Deal, 2 Good

Oops! That would mean that Space Elevator and Self-Aware Colony are worthless to him, and everyone else that aren't Hi Tech Builders.
Running Count: 3 No Big Deal, 2 Good.

Air Drop Cargo Carriers not carrying units that are 'L'd? Never need them or get that far in quick games...
Running Count: 4 No Big Deal, 2 Good.

And by the by... that actually sums things up for me, but I look forward to being able to reasonably TRY a more peaceful path to Transcendance now. I might finally get a chance to find a reason to try Drop Transports.

Lets keep looking at the list, shall we?
No longer able to switch Opponent's Governor setting in F4.
You know what? I never did that, and I bet Chagarra doesn't. So that's another neutral from usefulness. Lost the ability, but was a "cheat". (I am GLAD its fixed.)
Running Count: 5 No Big Deal, 2 Good.

Units no longer switch bases.
That's a GOOD one. Count: 5 No Big Deal, 3 Good.

Continuing...
The game no longer locks up when all players choose factions in a MP scenario that aren't present and END OF TURN is selected.
Chagarra doesn't play MP, IIRC. Count: 5 no big deal, 3 good, 1 only for MP.

Onward!
If you zoom to a base from the F4 Base Operations screen, when you return to the F4 screen you can now use the PgUp and PgDn hotkeys to scroll the window.
This is a nice UI improvement.
Count: 5 no big deal(NBD), 4 good, 1 MP VG.

Loading a map in the scenario editor after generating one now updates the minimap.
Whoa! What if Chagarra doesn't make scenarios? Or use the minimap in the scenarios. Another NBD.
Count: 6 NBD, 4 good, 1 MP VG

You can no longer use long-range fire via right-click when out of range of the target.
This is ANOTHER cheat. So if Chagarra doesn't use it, its another NBD. (This is a good thing from MP as it prevents a cheat, but I will put it in our presumed profile of Chagarra's play for the moment).
Count: 7 NBD, 4 good, 1 MP VG

Onward, ever onward...
Automated formers no longer build bunkers prior to having the required technology.
Bunkers are a pain. I'll classify it as a good thing.
Count: 7 NBD, 5 good, 1 MP VG.

A couple left to go...
New landmark: the Manifold Nexus
This could be a nice addition. Yet to be seen. So that makes it neutral, which is NBD.
Count: 8 NBD, 5 good, 1 MP VG.

Last one...
Wheelmouse in lists? If you don't have one or don't use one, that would be no use. So its borderline NBD to Good, depending on your hardware. Until we here different, let's put that in the majority neutral camp... most users won't have a wheel.
Count: 9 NBD, 5 good, 1 MP VG.

Final Count
9 No Big Deal (Of which, 3 move to good if you are a Hi Tech Builder)
5 Good
1 MP VG.

Any way you total it, there are LOTS more out there. Maybe the things that gets Chagarra seeing red wasn't on the list of items fixed. But flaming him and making personal attacks for saying "No big deal" was a little over the top Yin. His attitude wasn't meant as a disparage on you and all of those that helped.

I think you need to cool your jets, look it over, and make peace with Chagarra. He will NOT be the only one that won't believe things are fixed until its played. And you don't need to give yourself a heart attack from all that high blood pressure.

posted 07-05-99 09:58 PM ET            

Darkstar, re-read it.

I'll accept your take that several are "no big deal" fixes, but you're missing the point. Those were the fixes (mostly) that WE asked for! What the hell is all this crying and insulting doing us now? (Yes, Darkstar, he tried to insult me. You've been reading Trippin's crap for so long you're losing touch with what a civil response is--yours was civil enough, of course, but chagarra's entire post there was nothing but whining and slander.)

posted 07-05-99 10:03 PM ET            

That's the closest I came to "flaming" him, and the facts are on my side. For him to say the items on the list are of no concern to "most SMACers" has what as proof? His own ideas? And even if people agree now, they certainly didn't think the list sucked a few months ago.

posted 07-05-99 10:54 PM ET            

(bow)

You are right... I saw you flaming Chagarra, but his particular comments slid right off my consciousness, other than he called you a brown noser. They were doing that from BEFORE The List. Maybe I have seen too much of all the nasty talk on these boards. Maybe I should report them to Jeff. LOL!

I don't mind Jeff calling me about my bug count. Numbers do drift in my mind when its been a while and unimportant to me. My girlfriend's phone number is important, but the exact number of bugs in SMAC isn't. Other than they get reported to Firaxis so that they might have a good hunting list for SMACX/Enhancement 5/SMAC 2.

(grin) Yin, I helped with the list as much as anyone that wasn't you, I think. Everyone will have their own opinions as to what is a must fix. Personally, I am hoping that a lot more were corrected, and looking forward to playing the new version.

As far as a sour shot goes, here's one... you should NEVER have to rely on your customers to come up with a prioritize list of bugs in a product you supply. Firaxis did because they didn't have the resources or time to address all of the bugs... and the fact that by ANYONE's count, they had in excess of hundreds of repeatible bugs.

posted 07-05-99 11:43 PM ET            

You helped a great deal on that list, and I think we should be happy from a "hard-working fan" point of view. Sure, other bugs have come up since then that we probably would have prioritized differently had we focused on them weeks ago--but they weren't an issue to us then, or the issue didn't come up.

You and I have always agreed that patchware is deathware. And I'm sure nobody would have liked to have seen SMAC released without bugs more than Firaxis itself. But it had bugs, several serious ones, and a few that we practically had to prove in blood that existed before they were fixed. Did Firaxis handle the aftermath of all this properly? Well, they might have been busy in the background doing the work, but publically we've been left to fester on this forum for so long wondering and brooding that it's perhaps little wonder that 4.0 still has so many critics.

But I dare say that 4.0 reflects what WE wanted fixed. Firaxis deserves credit on that point--and if I had to choose between a public apology and a quiet fix, I'll take the fix. We, you and a few others in particular, also deserve credit for not simply whining--that list was not particularly easy to make, but it changed the game for the better. I hope that tradition continutes here. Perhaps MtG is already carrying the torch.

posted 07-06-99 12:02 AM ET            

I remember some of the battles involved in identifying bugs. I hope we don't repeat THAT. All those "No there's not." "Yes there is." were rather pointless and insulting.

Yes, more bugs have been uncovered since then. I am sure the Post Enhancement Must Fix list is going to be... interesting. (Grin) I'm sure you can imagine.

And some of us haven't stopped playing SMAC, although we play other games as well.

We've discussed the matter of time, resources, and bugs in product about to death around here. Too bad its so darned expensive (in time or resources) to make a bug free products easily. But low bug count is not a priority with most companies... just reviewing well. Those reviews feed the hype, and that seems to be the focus of a large chunk of non-coding money. So, for the fact that Firaxis has been killing the bugs in SMAC, I applaud them. Let's hope that they aren't far from getting all the easily found (easily repeatable) bugs out of SMAC.

posted 07-06-99 12:27 AM ET            

Since you now appear to be a full time P R Consultant (Ex Moderator ) for Firaxis. A few things should be made clear.

Firstly I do NOT need a lecture from you telling me how good Firaxis have been at fixing things that are still there after two prior fixes.
Since on many posts I had stated my only bug was the sound problem, which I accept is not Firaxis fault. The fact that SMAC sucked after tech level six is also on record.
If you were to look, you will find that I posted WISHES, in the wish list era.
I just did not post them on YOUR list, since YOUR list was hijacked from this forum to another site, which I do not wish to use�.. And talking of YOUR list, how many of the listed names were, or are, regular posters in this forum �. ???
Also strange that within two posts of an anti Yin/Firaxis comment JKM comes riding to the rescue of "Yin's helpful list". To be followed with a forelock tugging "Thanks, Jeff."

Crap I said, and crap I meant. I will not reiterate Darkstar's list, but I think him extremely overgenerous. To the few that need them to get more bang for their bucks, by all means, be happy. But to any one who tries to shove down my throat how good Firaxis is to us, go urinate in THEIR pocket.

And to finish, unless I am very mistaken, we were told that patch 4 was to be the last patch prior to SMACX, and didn't Jeff just say " It is critical that code work stop on one version when it enters test ".
If so are we to assume that;
1 .. You are totally ofay with Firaxis schedule.
2 .. SMACX is not yet in testing.
3 .. You are going to continue to Bull**** any fools into thinking that YOUR input affects Firaxis policies.

posted 07-06-99 01:49 AM ET            

Did that little cry help? Need a nap? PROZAC?

posted 07-06-99 02:10 AM ET            

I'll retract my statement from our earlier, Firaxis BBS discussion,
Your therapy doesn't seem to be working.
That sarcastic little dummy spit obviously indicates an unwell mind, possibly Dan M couldn't be conned like some others.

posted 07-06-99 03:18 AM ET            

I can't be conned like some others. And if you get a chance, ask that chigger guy to give me a call--he's on top of things.

Sincerely,

posted 07-06-99 03:25 AM ET            

Chigger won't help unless you give him piles of PROZAC.

Sincerely,

posted 07-06-99 03:29 AM ET            

Damn! We just gave the last bucket full of PROZAC to Trippin. The guy ate it like candy--but it DID get him to write a complaint letter against himself, so that was worth it.

Chugger will have to wait for the next shipment. Thanks anyway. I'll just have to let the Wish List go nowhere for a while all on my own.

Sincerely,

posted 07-06-99 04:15 AM ET            

Why don't both you and Chagarra cool it and let the argument drop ?

posted 07-06-99 04:31 AM ET            

The Wish List that Chagarra is referring to is the "Things I would LIKE to see in SMAC". A true wish list of future enhancements and suggestions. It was running rampant about a little before you started trying to build the "Top 5 Bugs Must Fix List" that got sent to Firaxis.

He did contribute to the Wish list. A few wish list items was slipped onto the bug list.

I think.

posted 07-06-99 04:37 AM ET            

I've made my point, so I'll let it go, as you suggest. Good call. I'm sick of these flame wars, too. And I think my point about 4.0 is clear enough.

By the way, since more than one person is curious: I have no relationship with Firaxis. In fact, depending on who you talk to there, our relationship is either mildly hostile to mildly cordial. I'm still one of Firaxis' most vocal critics when it comes to how they deal with us fans. Dan M's sudden "total power" grab on the Firaxis site is a good example--I don't care who is the moderator, but to just pull the plug on a fan-based effort and then not even contact people on how best to continue seems, to me, a typical Firaxis move.

But I'm sick of complaining. The huge Civ3 list we put together at Apolyton is nearly finished. We're going to send that probably this week to Brian and the Firaxis team. I'm hoping just a few ideas make it in.

posted 07-06-99 06:09 AM ET            

Great to see Firaxis taking your list seriously. I have to admit that when I saw it being made I was dubious that it would have the desired effect. I'm glad I was wrong and hope Firaxis takes the CivIII list(s) just as seriously.

chaggara:

"3 .. You are going to continue to Bull**** any fools into thinking that YOUR input affects Firaxis policies."

posted 07-06-99 06:22 AM ET            

Actually, it was interesting to see that, in spite of what everyone thought, you still have the edge and that little flame is still burning strong deep inside

I was also a bit put off by the putsch (sp?) on the Firaxis site (althought I don't follow it as closely as I do this one). I agree that the least Dan could have done is discuss the Civ3 followup with you. Actually, I assumed that had been done, but obviously not.

Like I stated in some other thread, I used to defend Firaxis a lot, because I thought their support was absolutely great (and it really was, back in February/March), but I have to admit that it degenerated to absolute crap. Only Jeff makes a few PR efforts in here, which is a shame since this place is supposed to be the "official" forum.

But then again, Jeff's move against Trip' was really lame, even if our burning friend went over the line.

posted 07-06-99 12:34 PM ET         

Only this few bugs listed in the pre-released Readme.txt will be fixed with the 4.0 Patch.
They corrected only the main 5 bugs. What has Firaxis done in the past 12 weeks?.

I thought the costumers are the kings. Looks like Firaxis has an other understanding for customers.

posted 07-06-99 01:42 PM ET            

Glad to see you still can flame with the best. (ref.: you and chagarra) I had been afraid you had totally lost your capacity for verbal violence. You amused me terribly back in jan/feb when you first appeared.

BTW, I am glad (seriously now) that you got the list together. I am also glad Firaxis worked off of it. Best of luck in the future.

posted 07-06-99 04:22 PM ET            

When will the 4.0 patch be released????

posted 07-06-99 05:27 PM ET            

As far as listening, I think the List carried a good bit of weight with them, when they were working patch 4. They tell us that. And it looks that way. From some of the other things they found, it looks like a lot of email bombing with sav games might have helped as well.

That, or they just want to close out one of our gripes about turn 1 bugs observable with formers. :0

posted 07-06-99 09:40 PM ET            

Yes, I was pretty vocal. But I managed to turn my energy from complaining (well, I still do that) to trying to help. That's why I'm so happy: Our work paid off! Although I will continue to offer my criticisms to Firaxis, particularly in the PR department, I am convinced that working with them gets much more done that simply whining.

posted 07-06-99 11:12 PM ET            

if a worm enters a UoP base, the Network Node is destroyed...and is never rebuilt.

posted 07-08-99 04:17 AM ET            

Has anything been done about the mineral cheat in SMAC? You know, the one where you build 80% of a secret project, switch to Planned/Wealth for a couple of turns, built said project for 20% less than const, and then switch back to whatever engineering you were using prior to that.

As far as I can see, the best solution to this was to change the rules for mineral production so that an industry bonus gave you a boost to your mineral intake (10% say). This would have several effects:
1. The industry boost wouldn't be quite so imbalancing as it is now.
2. The above cheat would be eliminated.
3. Units and projects would always cost the same amount, regardless of SE choices. This would be a good thing.

This isn't a real BUG persay, but it is an odd effect that's able to be exploited in an unfair manner, and one which should be obivious to all players after the first instance of it.

Oh, and I am looking forward to patch 4.0.

posted 07-08-99 06:21 AM ET            

That must have been some OTHER guy named Yin. Me? Banned? Jeff just told me to play along or my access would be "limited"--I think he meant I could only post on weekends.

Damn, you've got a good memory. Lukers, I tell you. Beware the Lurker...

Shiny,

I'm glad to see you post. I've got that file to send you. You've got time, right? Next few days, maybe.

posted 07-10-99 03:02 AM ET            

Did v4 fix the game playback, where sea and Spartan squares are indistinguishable?

posted 07-10-99 03:41 AM ET            

we have heard that ocean is now a light blue. When I complete my current version 4 game, I intend to check for myself.

Enjoy SMAC!