posted 04-05-99 08:56 PM ET        

On a 90% land map, the SMAC code engine generally drops 2 to 3 factions. When trying to play Morgan, this is not good. Come on Firaxis! I want a *switch* that tells the starting generator to *not* seed any factions near each other whatsever unless it just can't find any where else to out them. I realize that this is the OPPOSITE behavior than what you coded, but it would be a NICE OPTION!

Excuse me, I am just very tired of this undesired and unnecessary feature. It ruins most of the games I start when trying to run a strategy other than Absolute Conquest. Did you guys ever try anything else?

Gr!!!! This bites. I wonder if I use a 400x400 map at 10-30% water if it still seeds a few factions on my doostep. I bet the answer is yes... it has almost always done so.

posted 04-05-99 09:11 PM ET            

I started a 200x200 map (maximum land, actually b/c, as you know, the comp. can't use seabases worth a damn) on TI a few days ago. Let me tell you, it was HEAVEN! Maybe I just got lucky, but all 7 of us were essentially on different continents or on islands so big that one needn't worry about looking elsewhere for land.

It was well past 100 turns before ANY sight of ANYBODY appeared. For somebody who was tired of the typical conquest game, I was really enjoying myself. By the time a little foil gunship found its way to my coast, my cities were already well-developed. Also, this size map makes things like the Empathy Guild(?) truly meaningful, as there is no way to trade techs with yet-discovered factions. Things like finding as many pods as possible, too, suddenly become very, very important.

This is the game I was looking for.

The only problem. Somewhere toward mid-game, Yang, who is on the other side of the world, begins hitting my cities with several dozen conventional missles per turn. He had obviously been saving them up. Well, this left me utterly defenseless in several cities, which were taken by Satiago's piss-ant crew as they gingerly stepped virtually uncontested of their little sorry-ass excuse for a boat and took 3 cities in two turns.

I checked the scenario editor. There is NO way Yang could have gotten to me. (Please, Firaxis, tell me I missed something!)

I deleted the game yesterday to keep from playing until this gets fixed. If it does get fixed, I will be a very happy Yin. If not, well...if not...

posted 04-05-99 11:07 PM ET            

Of course it's possible that I missed that when I activated the scenario editor. But nobody in the game was that advanced yet anyway. (Tech really stagnants when you have 100 turns of no contact.)

posted 04-05-99 11:58 PM ET            

I'm sorry to here about your bad luck on drop zone crowding. What size map do you play on? What proportion is water? I almost always play on huge randomly generated maps at 50-70% water and rarely (maybe 1 in 5 games) meet up with anybody else until at least 30 turns have past. I think that with the higher ocean settings you are more likely to get put on your own island. That way you only have to worry about the 8th faction. Don't give up yet, try some different settings.

posted 04-06-99 12:07 AM ET            

You'll be happy to know that I've fixed the Hive missile problem. See my post for details. Of course, you'd have to go through the trouble re-installing your game and the v3.0 patch. I just hope that if you renew your interest in SMAC and remain in the forums all of those vapid Yinophobes don't hunt me down. I'm very sensitive.

JAMiAM

posted 04-06-99 03:51 AM ET            

(1) It's deliberate; we're meant to suffer this `rain of terror', just as we're meant to endure governors that let drone riots and eco-damage get so out of control that major bases are seriously damaged or in some cases destroyed. That does NOT happen when I micromanage every base's minerals and citizenry on every turn, but on a Huge map how much fun is that?

(2) Brian Reynolds has copied vast slabs of Civ2 source code over _verbatim_ into SMAC. (It stands to reason, when you consider that there's no point reinventing so many wheels.) But it would be refreshing if he would say that's why the AI range check is still missing after two games!

(3) These problems will be fixed in patch, sorry enhancement, four thousand something.

I'm posting somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but these problems are a real killjoy.

Just imagine, Firaxis, how great a strategy game would be, if we players could concentrate principally on strategic decisions and actual battlefield preparation, instead of on tedious everyday minutiae?

Currently, it's like doing the household accounts, not once a week or once a day, but every waking moment - really enthralling, that is.

posted 04-06-99 05:58 AM ET            

I don't play the Spartans, ever, because its just TOO easy to Bully the AI. I would like to play UoP or Morgan more, but they tend to get walked over if some other faction is within 50 to 75 turns of waging war. Especially Morgan, as it tends to be the Hive, Believers, or Spartans that tend to be his immediate neighbors (my bad luck, I know, but you have 50% chance that it will be one of the three out of six factions). Now, any game that I DON'T have an immediate neighbor is either due to starting on a landmark item that was plopped down on a maximum water for the bracket (looking really stupid in the middle of the ocean by itself), or about the 100th Restart. If I can't play Morgan, what is the point of him being in the game? The AI certainly can't.

So that makes 6 factions left. Remove Spartans from my list as not only do they not make sense to have a faction based entirely around the right to bear arms and nothing else (apparently) but also because of the "I always win because the computer is so scared of me factor" and that leaves 5.

I generally avoid playing the Believers. Aside from their cities are ugly (IMO), they generally bite for my prefered game style. (I can play them, but they are Conqs and I like Builders.) That leaves 4 Factions... Since UoP gets bullied too much, especially when you get 3 neighbors (and even odds that one of them can and will kick your butt if you don't roll over constantly for them) that EFFECTIVELY leaves 3 Factions.

The PKS aren't bad, but you need some room to grow and they haven't got anything that helps them to do so in the competion sense. That and I have REALLY lousy luck with their starts.

So that leaves the Hive, who works fine for me, and the Gaians, who if I can catch a few mindworms early leaves me enough military to guard my borders (in the worst of neighborly seedings). That means the SAFE bet for a game for me is the Hive (You can't bet on getting 4 mindworms in the first 75 turns). Problem with being the Hive is I have yet to see a game reach Hover Tanks unless I was just jerking around. My end game falls into most peoples early game around here. I am not claiming I am a super strategist such as Analyst... just another arm chair strategist that enjoys building an empire. But when someone is silly enough to declare war, they deserve a stomping. Border jumpers get stomped... etc. etc. etc. Since the AI just HAS to declare war 9 out of 10 times, that leaves for very little building and lots of fighting. Not very well rounded gameplay.

And yes, that I blame on SMAC. Its the way they wrote the Gameplay to be. Maybe its all MY fault as a consumer and the silly way I play, but I find it ridiculous how the AI turns on you. An Ally that you have helped and protected shouldn't decide to go to war with you when it has gone from 5th in the graph to 2nd because the two of you have put your foot on the necks of the others (And it has only survived due to your help).

Overall, I like SMAC, but it just aggravates me to see these things that take what should be a great game and make it just good (IMHO). Oh well, time to go tickle the seeder and see if I can get a peaceful builder start...

posted 04-06-99 07:35 PM ET         

Some workarounds if you really find this a problem. You can get any starting setup you want if you're willing to use the editor and save them as scenarios. Get a map you like, make one or let the editor generate one you like the looks of. Plant the factions where you want them. Save as scenario. Move the factions around and save it another time or two. Generate/Make a couple more maps and repeat. Download a few off the net. This collection of scenarios is then a set of games to play and you know that no one's right on you but you're also unlikely to remember much else.

posted 04-06-99 08:19 PM ET         

In my current game on Hug map of planet, everyone pretty much got paired off with one of their hated factions.

Me-Morgan vs the Hive
Gains vs Spartans
Believers vs PK
Uop on their own small island

posted 04-07-99 01:28 AM ET            

Now, having said that, 8 games on huge, as much as possible land in randoms and 8 time I have 2 factions right on my doorstep. 8 games on standard, and 6 times I have 3 neighbors within 3 moves for a rover. I know enough about stats and random number sequencers and whatnot to know skewed result. But there's that CODE factor of putting down factions near you. Level of play does seem a factor though as the actual distance is greater for most... but not all. Go figure.

But then, I don't know I am whining so much. Between the lack of known, demonstratable bug extermination and lack of game balance, and general lack of the game play that SHOULD be in this game, I should count my lucky karma that any of it is enjoyable.

I wonder if I can conquer Transcend within 100 turns... come close a few times already...

posted 04-07-99 08:10 AM ET            

I find that on most huge maps I have enough room to expand to a good size without being bothered.

posted 04-07-99 11:55 AM ET            

But it simply doesn't follow that having nearby neighbors, even aggressive ones, forces you to play a conquest game. It's not necessary to fight every war to the point of an AI surrender. You take a base or two, and they'll make peace. And if they cone back again in a couple of years, whip them again. The point is, do not let the AI's actions determine the course of the game.

posted 04-07-99 01:18 PM ET            

Zero - If I only had a unit or three and therefore couldn't steam roll on, then yes, I take the cease fire. But when the war machine is starting to crank along, there is no reason to stop the Holy Extermination of the Heathens until you have all those pagan cities. Not one reason. It�s inefficient to swap strategies between Peaceful Civilization and War-Monger multiple times, especially for the same enemy on the same flank. And if you don't maintain a steady stream of new military units (or upgrading old units) when you take those hits to your power bar due to being ABLE to have Fusion Lasers (10) or Shard weapons (13) and you are only running Missile (6) weapons with a few Chaos (8) equipped troop, the computer will come and hit you as now you are WEAK. It�s NOT true, but the Computer thinks it is because it places too much value on the ranking and relative possible versus maximum height of the chart. I've had surrenderred/submissive factions try and turn on me because they now perceive themselves as my equals. And over what? That I JUST GAINED the ability to make more powerful assault weapons? How strange. (Yes, I know it does mirror the irrationality of reality... get them now before the new weapons reach the front lines, but it still seems strange since you don't push the other FACTIONS down on the power grid... Just yourself.)

Whether you like it or not, SMAC makes you play Warrior. It's just the way it is. In Civ, unless I had an aggressive near neighbor, I would build and expand to my little heart's content. Once I ran out of room, I would start new colonies, or take over others. But that style fit the way Civ's AI played (on the levels I played). SMAC is much more aggressive game, and closer to the original Mainframe Empire game (where all cities did was build military) and MoM (where you only build city infrastructure to improve your ability to wage war (support people, improve production, improve research so that you can get bigger weapons). That makes SMAC lose the open-ended feel that Civ had, at least for me. Your miles may vary.

Note, I am NOT saying this games reeks so bad that its going to be dropped of my hard-drive and become shelfware. Just that it doesn't respond to anything less that a Raving War-Monger From The First Turn in my gaming experience with it. If you are always posed to smash everyone just because they didn't grovel enough, the game's AI will let you be and build an empire. Otherwise, they are going to try and stomp you as you are "weak and soft" and they want to increase the size of their pie. Its just that simple. If you have to have the number one army in the world, and prove that you are willing to use it from time to time, then all you are playing is a Conquest game. You can call it what you want, but you are just mentally masterbating doing anything but conquering. Transcend? Why? You could have won the game in half the time (in game turns) it takes you to Transcend if you had just went ahead and stomped the computer, rather than holding back. Economic Victory? Don't make me laugh! If you weren't the number one military power in the world, the computer would have cut themselves in for a piece of YOUR energy. Diplomatic Victory? Ha! That is due ENTIRELY to your strength of arms letting you take/keep the larger pop for the votes, and amass the resources to buy those votes you might want to buy. The whole game revolves around Strength Of Arms and Strength Of Armies. Nothing more, and nothing less.
That is why the Spartans are the supreme faction in the game. They can bully all other factions better than any other faction. Go ahead. When I am #4 in the chart as Spartans, I can bully the #1 man into handing over whatever I want... tech, money, cities. Anything (but their capitol :-). The game must have that written into its code from the way it acts and reacts... strength of arms and armies is the only measure of a civilization/faction strength that counts.

Humm... MoM... Its been a long time since I made the Worlds sprout Volcanoes every turn... that might be a nice, fun, change of pace. :-)

posted 04-09-99 04:49 PM ET            

And, yes, a transcend victory takes more game turns than the conquest win that you surely could have also had. But it's faster in terms of playing time, which is what counts for me.

Maybe playing on a larger map gives a different experience, but on a standard map you can usually make yourself pretty secure, by clearing everyone but allies off your continent - or at least establishing some sort of choke point to keep any possible incursions out of your productive areas. Last time I played Morgan on transcend, I was able to play almost a pure build game as soot as the Gaians and I had wiped the Believers off of our continent. It wasn't quite pure because I was technically at war with the UoP for most of the game - Deirdre insisted, and I didn't want to lose the alliance, which was generating a lot of trade for me.