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Author Topic:   Victimising Terraformers

Nell_Smith posted 04-03-99 07:10 AM ET
Am I the only one who finds it a bit annoying that terraformers, as non-combat units that can't attack, can nevertheless BE attacked? Both from a realism point of view and an irritation point of view, it seems a bit unfair, especially as military units can actually "perform admirably" and get a morale upgrade from attacking some harmless farmer or road-builder!! The AI seems often to kill off a terraformer in preference to a military unit standing in the next square, which does annoy me when you consider that terraformers take a while to build at the early levels, and also that they move slowly and it probably took you ages to get the thing from its home base to where you wanted it to be (although building Rover terraformers is always one of my favourite things... far more useful! ). I can see that it's nice to be able to bomb a terraformer that's halfway through building a sensor, but I reckon a couple of changes might be good. For example, maybe make it an atrocity for a player to kill a terraformer (after all, bombing civilians in real life isn't very popular), or make terraformers immune to being attacked, but also remove their ZOC ability so that they can't act as permanent blockers to military campaigns. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
LackOfKnack posted 04-03-99 07:50 AM ET
That sounds like a great idea! Perfect, take away ZOCs, modify atrocities, done.
Lack
TheHelperMonkey posted 04-03-99 11:55 AM ET
Taking away the former as a unit to be attacked would certainly unbalance the game in terms of your faction's infastructure.
However, takking away the former's ZOC is a good Idea. Infact all non-combat units should not have a ZOC. It makes sense, and it will stop the computer from using formers as road blockers for your army.
cousLee posted 04-03-99 01:25 PM ET
can you say human chain defence? now all I have to do instead of using stratagey, is build the Berlin Former and I won't be attacked untill drop pods and needlejets enter the game.
bad idea. leave the formers alone.
ummm, try putting armor on your formers. makes road building in the rock fun.
BTW. the former is not a harmless unit. sink any good bases lately?
TheHelperMonkey posted 04-03-99 05:27 PM ET
This always happens to me: I am about to conquer my oponents undefended base, with a choas rover that is 2 spaces away. I move towards the base. Then one square before I reach the base a former appears. Now, I have to stop and attack him becuase he has a ZOC. That's illogical becuase a former has no weapons except for that big drill it uses.
JAMiAM posted 04-03-99 06:55 PM ET
Formers helpless??? Ain't you guys ever seen John Wayne in The Fighting Seabees?
If you ask me any ground unit attacking a fungicidal former should suffer a 3 level morale drop for the anticipated long term effects of being sprayed with agent orange or whatever it is that they use on Chiron.
JAMiAM
a terminal sufferer of tongue in cheek disease.
eNo posted 04-03-99 10:45 PM ET
Taking away a former's ZOC does make sense. I think they should be able to attack with an attack value of somethine like 0.5. You need something pretty powerful to build that Thermal Borehole and if you were to turn that against a unit, it should do some damage.
Mortis posted 04-03-99 10:50 PM ET
Thaking away former's ZOCs is good. Anything else is plaing stupid.
"Nah uh! You can't kill my former! It's non-military!"
"Can too!"
"Can't!"
"Can!"
"Can't!!"
Jythexinvok posted 04-04-99 01:49 AM ET
I could easily see terriforming equipment making exelent improvised weapondry. One author I read (Nivin) loves setting up situations where industrial equipment such as linear accellerators or communiation lasers.
Maybe something like this: terriorming units act as the highest current energy weapon, with a 50/50 chance of having a +50% (large heat sinks and energy source) or -50% (bad aim).
Mortis posted 04-04-99 06:59 AM ET
Oh yeah, if you don't like the AI killing all your formers then give them some armour!
Nell_Smith posted 04-04-99 10:51 PM ET
Thanx for the replies all
Thinking about it, making formers completely immune could unbalance the game, considering how much better use the human player can make of formers than the AI can. But I do reckon that taking away the formers' ZOC would be a great idea, and that making it an atrocity to attack them would at least add to realism and maybe also help to stop the AI picking on them so much.
Off to build some armoured sea formers...
Koshko posted 04-05-99 12:06 AM ET
I guess you can use the same arguements for Colony Pods.
cousLee posted 04-05-99 07:07 AM ET
OK, I agree with the idea of the ZOC being removed, but that is it and only if armor was not allowed.
I Think it would be more appropriate if they could be captured.
Side note. I think you should get 10-25% of the mineral value of an enemy unit when you destroy one. maybe have Salvage capabilities as a special ability for your units. the minerals would be assigned to the city supporting the attacker, or to the "capitol" if the attacker is an independent. hmmm.

Nell_Smith posted 04-05-99 02:54 PM ET
That's a great idea... when you've just captured a city it would be really useful to have a former on hand to quickly road it in, so being able to capture an enemy former on the way to the city would be a cool feature. Maybe it could be done on a "morale combat" basis or just a simple random percentage chance of capture instead of destruction when the attack is initiated.
Salvage would be great too... and would be fairer if EITHER side could have a go at salvaging a destroyed unit: maybe the unit could remain in the square where it was destroyed for one turn so that either the conqueror or the loser could make a mad dash to reclaim some of those precious minerals! Would make for some intersting brinkmanship... is it worth hanging around near that enemy artillery emplacement in order to grab a few handy spare parts, or better to retreat to a safe distance and let him have em?
And as for colony pods, yep I agree that they shouldn't have ZOCs either... it hardly makes sense from a "realism" point of view!
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Author	Topic: Victimising Terraformers
Nell_Smith	posted 04-03-99 07:10 AM ET Am I the only one who finds it a bit annoying that terraformers, as non-combat units that can't attack, can nevertheless BE attacked? Both from a realism point of view and an irritation point of view, it seems a bit unfair, especially as military units can actually "perform admirably" and get a morale upgrade from attacking some harmless farmer or road-builder!! The AI seems often to kill off a terraformer in preference to a military unit standing in the next square, which does annoy me when you consider that terraformers take a while to build at the early levels, and also that they move slowly and it probably took you ages to get the thing from its home base to where you wanted it to be (although building Rover terraformers is always one of my favourite things... far more useful! ). I can see that it's nice to be able to bomb a terraformer that's halfway through building a sensor, but I reckon a couple of changes might be good. For example, maybe make it an atrocity for a player to kill a terraformer (after all, bombing civilians in real life isn't very popular), or make terraformers immune to being attacked, but also remove their ZOC ability so that they can't act as permanent blockers to military campaigns. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
LackOfKnack	posted 04-03-99 07:50 AM ET That sounds like a great idea! Perfect, take away ZOCs, modify atrocities, done. Lack
TheHelperMonkey	posted 04-03-99 11:55 AM ET Taking away the former as a unit to be attacked would certainly unbalance the game in terms of your faction's infastructure. However, takking away the former's ZOC is a good Idea. Infact all non-combat units should not have a ZOC. It makes sense, and it will stop the computer from using formers as road blockers for your army.
cousLee	posted 04-03-99 01:25 PM ET can you say human chain defence? now all I have to do instead of using stratagey, is build the Berlin Former and I won't be attacked untill drop pods and needlejets enter the game. bad idea. leave the formers alone. ummm, try putting armor on your formers. makes road building in the rock fun. BTW. the former is not a harmless unit. sink any good bases lately?
TheHelperMonkey	posted 04-03-99 05:27 PM ET This always happens to me: I am about to conquer my oponents undefended base, with a choas rover that is 2 spaces away. I move towards the base. Then one square before I reach the base a former appears. Now, I have to stop and attack him becuase he has a ZOC. That's illogical becuase a former has no weapons except for that big drill it uses.
JAMiAM	posted 04-03-99 06:55 PM ET Formers helpless??? Ain't you guys ever seen John Wayne in The Fighting Seabees? If you ask me any ground unit attacking a fungicidal former should suffer a 3 level morale drop for the anticipated long term effects of being sprayed with agent orange or whatever it is that they use on Chiron. JAMiAM a terminal sufferer of tongue in cheek disease.
eNo	posted 04-03-99 10:45 PM ET Taking away a former's ZOC does make sense. I think they should be able to attack with an attack value of somethine like 0.5. You need something pretty powerful to build that Thermal Borehole and if you were to turn that against a unit, it should do some damage.
Mortis	posted 04-03-99 10:50 PM ET Thaking away former's ZOCs is good. Anything else is plaing stupid. "Nah uh! You can't kill my former! It's non-military!" "Can too!" "Can't!" "Can!" "Can't!!"
Jythexinvok	posted 04-04-99 01:49 AM ET I could easily see terriforming equipment making exelent improvised weapondry. One author I read (Nivin) loves setting up situations where industrial equipment such as linear accellerators or communiation lasers. Maybe something like this: terriorming units act as the highest current energy weapon, with a 50/50 chance of having a +50% (large heat sinks and energy source) or -50% (bad aim).
Mortis	posted 04-04-99 06:59 AM ET Oh yeah, if you don't like the AI killing all your formers then give them some armour!
Nell_Smith	posted 04-04-99 10:51 PM ET Thanx for the replies all Thinking about it, making formers completely immune could unbalance the game, considering how much better use the human player can make of formers than the AI can. But I do reckon that taking away the formers' ZOC would be a great idea, and that making it an atrocity to attack them would at least add to realism and maybe also help to stop the AI picking on them so much. Off to build some armoured sea formers...
Koshko	posted 04-05-99 12:06 AM ET I guess you can use the same arguements for Colony Pods.
cousLee	posted 04-05-99 07:07 AM ET OK, I agree with the idea of the ZOC being removed, but that is it and only if armor was not allowed. I Think it would be more appropriate if they could be captured. Side note. I think you should get 10-25% of the mineral value of an enemy unit when you destroy one. maybe have Salvage capabilities as a special ability for your units. the minerals would be assigned to the city supporting the attacker, or to the "capitol" if the attacker is an independent. hmmm.
Nell_Smith	posted 04-05-99 02:54 PM ET That's a great idea... when you've just captured a city it would be really useful to have a former on hand to quickly road it in, so being able to capture an enemy former on the way to the city would be a cool feature. Maybe it could be done on a "morale combat" basis or just a simple random percentage chance of capture instead of destruction when the attack is initiated. Salvage would be great too... and would be fairer if EITHER side could have a go at salvaging a destroyed unit: maybe the unit could remain in the square where it was destroyed for one turn so that either the conqueror or the loser could make a mad dash to reclaim some of those precious minerals! Would make for some intersting brinkmanship... is it worth hanging around near that enemy artillery emplacement in order to grab a few handy spare parts, or better to retreat to a safe distance and let him have em? And as for colony pods, yep I agree that they shouldn't have ZOCs either... it hardly makes sense from a "realism" point of view!