posted 03-30-99 11:58 PM ET        

I have seen, from day one, an almost religious effort by some people here to blame the gamer for any number of bugs, memory leaks, crashes--you name it.

But there can be no mistaking that Firaxis dropped the ball on the following (these are just to whet your appetites):

* There appears to be a movement bug--sometimes it takes several turns to enter a fungus square. Other times no.

* Singularity reactors offer NO improvement over their predecessor. The extra energy and time? Just a waste.

[the next one is yet to be confirmed by many, so I'll call it a tentative, though, if true, major SMAC screw up]

* AI missiles do not abide by rage limitations, though patch 3.0 assures us this fix was made.

* Some people report a MORE unstable game after installing patch 3.0--more page faults, more lock-ups, more bugs.

_______________________________

So here's the question:

What problems do you think are SMAC's fault and which can be fixed by the gamer?

Now, let me just try to set the tone, here. I think our goal should be to collectively try to weed out what we can fix ourselves v. what Firaxis has the duty to fix for us.

posted 03-31-99 01:37 AM ET            

But since Firaxis is such a kick ass company that doesnt matter
(yin lifts his singularity, whoops, QUANTUM laser and shoots wens head off)

posted 03-31-99 02:34 AM ET            

Thanks for the reminder: Active Desktop is one huge bug in itself. Use it at your own peril.

Whenever possible, turn off all non-game enhancing TSR (terminate and stay resident) programs that steal system resources. A lot of that stuff you've downloaded or setup over the past few months and sits in your system tray should be turned off before you play.

In other words, leave your memory and disk as "clean" as possible. Also, always update your drivers and, periodically, your BIOS (but keep the old files around just in case because sometimes you might actually have to have an OLDER driver around to get some games to work).

Check out http://www.windrivers.com

It's all there for you. You can even brush up on your hacking while you are there. The site's mantra is "Less B.S. More Computer." How can you not love that?

posted 03-31-99 03:14 AM ET            

But listen to how silly it sounds: "I hope they don't rush to fix the bugs becuase then they might introduce more bugs."

Jesus, what the hell kind of company are we talking about here if we are more afraid of their trying to fix the bugs! What's sad, of course, is that some people are ACTUALLY having a worse time now that "enhancement" 3.0 has come out. If we really need to say, "Firaxis, could you please fix these bugs--but please do it carefully because we are worried you might make it worse," that should speak for itself, don't you think?

Let's face it here. If the best Firaxis can do in response to fixing its bugs is to rush out new bugs, they should open a bakery together and get out of the programming business ASAP.

posted 03-31-99 04:09 AM ET            

Singular sensation:
I addressed that problem in the topic with Jeffrey's answer, still have to check if he replied further. Even if they did think they had to limit Hit Points, methinks that prorating HP in Psi-Combat too is an odd, unbalancing and unforeseen side-effect.
Taken this out, it would still make sense if you get the cargo boost and cost reduction bonuses with the high-end reactor.

Yin, what about a bar'n'grill where they broil a shish-kebab with a fir stick as axis? bugs may be added spice in such culture's haut-cuisine.

And why would you limit the *rage* of missiles?
"See, I'm busting you, but I can assure you that I counted up to ten, took hold of myssileself, and I'm doing it in your interest with the utmost and politically correct calm and serenity" (imagine it with HAL9000's voice)

posted 03-31-99 04:33 AM ET            

Hey, that's a good typo you caught! I love it when other people do it with a funny result. I love it more when I do it.

Missle Rage. That's funny. Good idea, actually. You could set your Planet Busters on "stun" or something. It just completely freezes the area for 50 turns instead of making a crater. That way you can conquer it intact later. Hmmmm...

Thanks everybody for clearing up the Xenofungus issue. I learned something from you about that. Obviously not a bug, then. A bit akwardly implemented perhaps, but MY fault as a gamer. Not Firaxis.

What about other issues, though? The missile RANGE question clearly needs to be addressed. This problem dates back to the demo and has yet to be addressed as far as I know. It's a true game spoiler in my opinion and one that should have been quite easy to fix.

posted 03-31-99 05:06 AM ET         

A software company, yin. Sadly, this effect of patches introducing new bugs is endemic in the s/w industry. It's getting a little better (I think) with time, but there's no particular reason that Firaxis should be immune from the problem.

The crucial point is how critical we think the current crop of bugs are. The bugginess of the new patches is a risk-based, statistical thing: one trades off higher risk of a broken patch for a quicker fix for current embarrassments. So, it _is_ worth saying "don't rush" if we feel that current bgs are less matterful than possible future ones.

posted 03-31-99 07:06 AM ET            

Please don't tell me you have so little faith in them. Hey, even I, the "troublemaker"--even I have more faith in human common sense than that.

But time is slowly proving me wrong with this Firaxis team, I'm afraid. So maybe you are right. Maybe we HAD better tell them:

"Uhh. Excuse me. Firaxis dudes. We like the 'enhancements' and stuff, we really do. That part how you 'enhanced' the game by making the sound stop stuttering--that was cool. But the incessant page faults suddenly poping up, while I can see that it 'enhances' the challenge of actually finishing a game--could you leave that stuff out next time? I mean. We'll wait. don't push yourselves, really."

posted 03-31-99 07:30 AM ET            

I have read through the support section and the response from Firaxis has been great. They really do seem to be trying to fix everyones problems as best they can. I don't get where the perception that they are all sitting around doing nothing comes from.

There aren't many threads which are started by people who are saying. "I've had no problems." So it's hard to guage the proportion of people who do have a problem.

posted 03-31-99 08:12 AM ET            

MikeII--

I don't think Firaxis is sitting around doing nothing, either. But some of the mistakes to this point are puzzling.

Your OS point is very interesting.

I'm using Windows 98 myself. The problems haven't been that bad, actually--besides the memory leak thing. And patch 3.0 has been pretty good to me, though it caused real problems for others.

How many of you who are having problems (crashes, apparent memory leaks, etc.) are using Windows 98?

Anybody out there with Win95 seeing these problems?

posted 03-31-99 08:33 AM ET            

I still haven't put the version 2.0 patch on, it's on my hard drive but when I downloaded it I didn't have time to install it and I keep forgetting to do it before I load the game.

posted 03-31-99 11:17 AM ET            

The first point, movement in fungus bug is called Random. It stands in the manual, btw. in the appedix i believe under xenofungus.

Singularity reactors save money. that's it. they are not supposed to give 40 hp that's a bug in the manual.

Ai Missles seems to be true.

less stable game: Well some people play with hacked/pirated versions. Bad luck to them. I once d/l the us terran 2.0 since there was no german 2.0 at that time. Boy did that game crash afterwards...
Everybodys own fault if playing with a hacked/cracked version... (of course there are people with original versions with this problem, tho..)

C U

posted 03-31-99 11:57 AM ET         

What I want to know about the randomness is, is your chance cumulative or fixed? In other words, If you have a 1 mp unit entering fungus, are your chances 33%, 67%, 100% or are they 33%, 33%, 33% over three turns? Are the penalties for fungus and rocky ground cumulative (i.e., 5 mps)?

As I have said in other posts, has it been verified that the accounts of PBs exceeding max range are true and not just examples of PBs launched from allied bases, submersible, cloaked or FOW carriers, or airbases?

posted 03-31-99 04:44 PM ET            

Don't forget that your PLANET rating really does affect your chances for entering fungus as well. When I am running Free Market, or just using the TB, I see a lot more bouncing. Not saying that I haven't seen a scout (as Gaians) bounce trying to enter the same square for over 50 turns, but that's RND for you.

I have never seen an AUTOMATIC former bounce. I have seen formers on GOTO bounce, and have (rarely) had formers bounce when moving. (I think I was running Free Market when I had most of the bounces, but still...)

There is different code for AUTOMATED units and manual units, especially formers, so I wouldn't be surprised if AUTOMATIC formers never bounce due to not having the fungus check.

And the different former bugs have been in since the Demo so don't sweat the fact that Firaxis doesn't listen. They listen, they are just selective about what they are including in each "enhancement".

Remember, Enhancement 2.0 gave us the sound stutter in the first place. That is what people mean about new bugs... as said previously, whenever you change code, you risk introducting new bugs... that is a simple fact of life in the SW industry. Only thorough QA with a very detailed testing regime can prevent that. And something on the scale of SMAC would be nigh impossible to script due to the number of RANDOM decision gates in the code. (What the AI decides to do, random events, etc) However, when Brian assures us that the AI Unlimited Range Missile Bug is fixed, I presume *he* knows what he is talking about. How did it creep back in if it was out? Or was that a fix that only applied to planet busters and not Convent. Missiles? (Not that I understand how THAT could be but I didn't write their code, so there is no telling...) Things sound strange over at Firaxis...

posted 03-31-99 08:08 PM ET            

MikeH: Your arguements with Yin are a carbon copy of what took place last month. I'm sure he enjoys it though, and will learn a lot from you comments .

Auto former bugs: Formers are the bane of SMAC. Whoever wrote the code for these babies should consider posting an apology on the forums. As well as the inconsistancies in movement and terraforming, people have complained about crap A.I and their tendancy to trigger more crashes than any other part of the game. (And the A.I can still build roads and sensors on top of Mount Planet. In the lava filled crater).

You can test the free planet busters by using the senario editor. Just give yourself and your enemy a couple of each, leave the view screen on, and commence thermonuclear war.

And I like the term: Enhancements. Firaxis giving extras like Borehole clusters

posted 03-31-99 08:23 PM ET            

The game certainly does have a kind of cozy charm. I underestimated how interesting playing with so few--and quite cleverly differentiated--factions can be. Actually, the 38 (or whatever) civilizations in CtP don't really matter if you never get to know them and if they aren't really different from each other (as I suspect).

But (you saw that coming, right?) to come SO close and blow it on such silly things like terraformers and missle range is a pity. Of course, there is still the OS debate.

It seems clear, however, that all of us here (yes, including me) think this game is 1)fixable and 2) worth fixing. In the end, if Firaxis takes care of these issues that destroy--for me--the illusion of the game, I will be the first to congratulate them.

Of course, my P.S. will read:

"Next time, do it right the first time, and make an 'enhancement' live up to its name."

posted 04-01-99 12:16 AM ET            

I had sound stuttering even in v1.0. (AWE64; v3.0 seems to have *fixed* most of the stuttering I've had in both previous versions.)

I've had no page fault errors of any kind in any version at any time. (I use Win98, to help out anyone polling page faults by operating system :> )

posted 04-06-99 07:49 PM ET            

I have tried running SMAC on three different computers and under both Win95 and Win98. There seems to be no difference at all in reliability under either O/S. I have not tried SMAC while using Active Desktop simply because I hate Active Desktop and always disable it.

SMAC seems about as stable as any other Windows program: it crashes once in a while, but then so does IE4, Explorer, Word, Paintshop, etc etc, and indeed Windows itself. I get a TERRAN.EXE crash maybe once every two or three days, playing for 5 hours or more each day. Nothing to worry about.

For me, the v3.0 patch (UK version) completely solved the sound stutter problem. I have a Soundblaster PCI64. I have also installed SMAC on a computer with a Soundblaster Live card and one with a crummy SB16 clone, both with no problems after installing the patch.

posted 04-06-99 08:25 PM ET            

Then again, it just may be blind luck that my system hasn't crashed in a long while (knock on wood).

Oh well,

posted 04-06-99 09:44 PM ET            

I appreciate your level-headed approach to this issue. I must admit that, for me, patch 3 actually made the game better. However, the reverse seems true for other people.

As for my system, I have a stock Micron (their best system as of 3 months ago). Now don't get me wrong. It was never terrible to begin with.

But I would like to move the focus away from the gamer and his system to the larger question of what can be done by Firaxis (o.k., us too) to fix things like memory leaks and crashes. In my opinion, we should help each other out as fellow gamers, even if the game works fine on our machines.

In the end, if the problems aren't of Firaxis' making, time will boost their reputation. However, there are still certain issues that we can't blame on anybody but Firaxis. Those issues certainly deserve our united concern.

posted 04-06-99 09:52 PM ET            

The SMAC demo crashed over and over again, until I de-overclocked my AMD K6-2 from 333 to 300. That solved the problem, even though my processor ran fine with all other programs. SMAC (the game) has crashed exactly once with me (Win95). I have noticed a slowing down of the game, especially during movement and combat. I think it's a graphic thing, that is, nothing to do with my videocard or buggy drivers, but with badly programmed code that's related to graphic operations. For instance, normally the AI is fast as hell. Even with huge factions late in the game, the AI seldom thinks longer than 10 seconds. UNLESS Yang decides to move 50 needlejets in a neighboring base. Then it's coffee-time for me. (BTW, why is it that when I see 50 enemy bombers near my most vital bases without any AAA units, I think *YAWN*. Maybe I should hurry a couple of A-A rotors... O well, there's no rush, instead of bursting into tears and pressing the reset button???)

posted 04-06-99 11:54 PM ET            

Psimanic: presumably you have tried uninstalling SMAC and reinstalling, and then running the patch? Ignore me if you've already done that

I'm far from the world's greatest computer brain, but I do work in computer support/installation/troubleshooting and get to see a lot of hardware vs software problems. Usually it turns out to be a combination of both, although I must say that mods like overclocking (not having a go at micje, it's just a good example) can bring problems in some circumstances. Just a few thoughts:
1. All programs crash sometimes. Causes vary from faulty or over-aggressive code (rare in professional/non-hacked software), to software conflicts (e.g. Lotus 1-2-3 and MS Excel don't like to coexist, and nor do Unreal and Colin McRae Rally), to incorrect hardware drivers (very common), to lack of disk space for temp files. The causes are legion and it seems unfair to ask Firaxis to take into account all possible system setups.
2. There are now so many sound and video cards available that it's becoming very difficult for any software house to guarantee that their product will work with all of them. New ones are released all the time, requiring patches and updates which take time to write.
3. The more programs you have installed, games or others, the more chance that your system will slow down, hang, crash or just behave poorly. More cluttered Registry and hard drive = slower Windows performance and greater chance of errors. The first step in troubleshooting is to uninstall all unwanted programs (especially 3-D games), defrag the hard drive(s) and run RegClean. This can help a lot.
4. Many games and other programs overinstall the standard Windows drivers and DLLs with their own versions. Again, the more programs installed, the more chance of screwing up a driver here or a DLL there.
5. DirectX can be very troublesome. Again, many games install this, with or without asking you, and you can end up with incorrect DX versions or corrupted files. Run DXdiag.exe to check and troubleshoot. This is a very common cause of in-game graphics and sound problems. Installing the latest version of DX from microsoft.com can help.
6. Memory leakage (memory hogging, call it what you will) is very common with many programs, not just SMAC. Audio creation and editing software in particular is notorious for this. Windows itself hogs large chunks of RAM in order to speed up performance. If SMAC runs slowly, either run a RAM defragmenter like MemTurbo or restart the game and, if necessary, Windows itself.
7. Make sure you have the latest drivers for all your hardware - many bugs are driver bugs, not the fault of the apps that are using them.
8. I take my own computer as a good test system as it just happens to be brand new (therefore all drivers are current) and it has never had anything installed on it but Windows98, MS Office and SMAC (therefore no dodgy DX, DLLs etc). SMAC v.2 had the audio stutter problem but v.3 fixed this. I have clocked up 200+ playing hours and have had one or two TERRAN.EXE crashes (to be expected) but no other errors (not referring here to AI bugs, but to actual hardware/software bugs). This suggests that SMAC is not bug-ridden.

Sorry to waffle on, but I think SMAC is taking a lot of flak for problems that are not necessarily the fault of the programmers, and I, for one, find it to be an acceptably stable and well-written program.

posted 04-07-99 10:52 AM ET            

No crashes with SMAC, patch 2.0 & patch 3.0 (US) low & medium levels.
I reported it to the desperate fkloster.
I went back home, and started the first TI game since the demo (I wanted to rehearse my gameplay before making the top my standard).
Bang! Repeated page faults (details in fkloster cry for help post).
Now was it blind luck, was it a Tutankloster's curse?

posted 04-07-99 11:49 AM ET            

That is the exact custom size I usually use and have many more late game problems on that setting than on the included huge or standard map of planet setting (9800 squares, I think). You may have hit on something here.

In addition, the replay screen at the end of the game (where it shows your faction expansion history) will not display for me if I use a custom map size.

Overall, though, problems with SMAC (for me) are almost wholly limited to late-game and are miniscule compared to what I've had with CTP. Firaxis should subsidize Activision; I am twice (maybe 3 times) as happy with SMAC since getting CTP.

posted 04-07-99 01:05 PM ET            

Mainly these systems are relatively newly installed. No directx 3 upgraded to 5, downgraded to 4 and the upgraded again to 6.

If it gets to messy I move out my docs and savegames, wipe the whole disk and reinstall.

Irritating when it happens but hell this is the world og Windows. I'm sure the world would be a better place if we all were using Linux, but unfortunately it wont run word or Railroad tycoon, and while my granmother can install a printer under windows I seriously doubt that she under Linux would not end up deciding that its probably easier just not to print.

Windows is a fact of life, its here its what people use and its the platform most people want the game to run on as this is what they are using.

Now I have some experience in writing printer drivers for windows and then afterwards trying to find out if errors stem from windows itself, from the program printing, from your own coding or from the libraries you are using or maybe even your compiler and its settings.

Then it has to work with 32 bit programs old 16 bit stuff thats hanging around etc. Maybe you find an error thats actually not fault but some other programs not behaving as it should but if you tweak some setting you can make it work anyway only you now get a problem with some other setting etc, when you then finaly think you finally got it right you send it out and someone immediately calls and says its not working. Then you have to fix that, but also sometimes the guy has just no clue what he is talking about and there is actually nothing wrong and on top of that he may even be behaving as an asshole.

We can of course blame firaxis that they decided not to do a real and comprehensive beta test before releasing, but hell we all wanted the game now.

I believe this discussion would be more productive if we divide the errors into gameplay errors (eg. the missile range bug) and system errors of uncertain origin (e.g. user.exe comitted an illegal action by stacking a handle belonging to terran.exe).

Gameplay errors should be relatively straightforward to fix.

On the systems side I just have not seen these problem. Hell I have played 14 hrs one day left the machine overnight and continued the next. Sorry but I did not notice the memory leaking anywhere and I usually use huge maps and have tons of units.

Only thing I can see I do is recent drivers and generally I try to avoid the latest and greatest hardware, where all the companies are busy competing for benchmark scores and tweaking their drivers to get good magazine reviews for winning with 6 percent better performance than the competition.

I do however have a Riva TNT card and a soundblaster live in one machine and an ATI rage 128 in another and it also runs well on that.

I don't however have anything else running when playing smac. No virus scanners, mail checkers, maintenance wizards or anything. Definitely no screen savers - a well known directx killer. This is not particularly for smac its generally and just a hard lesson that simpler is easier.

What I would like to know from Yin is - have you checked that your windows and directx is actually stable on its own. Do other directx games run stably. Does your windows still live next morning if you leave it on overnight. Your points on gameplay i can see, the fungus one I can see this too.
On the rest I just see generalities without the facts needed for any kind of estimation of the reason for the problem.
SMAC crashes is not much of lead for finding the error in line 62,345 of the code.
It may be irritating to write graphics card blabla drivers version xx, sound card blabla etc. Also have you tried the standard advices given ?(disabling eax, trying to rename sound.dll and run a while w/o sound seeing if this makes it stable) you know narrowing down the problem, trying to reproduce it.

If you actually want a solution not just an audience this will be needed.

You may think its not your job, but if you have not done this, the fact is that regardless of what you think, the reason for your problem could just as well be a buggy soundcard driver or too high clock on your AGP making your graphics adapter go too hot.

Showing som seriousness about this from your side, maybe then firaxis can be made to take you seriously. The tone and somewhat generalizing form of your writing makes this not easy, but it is of course possible you have some valid point that deserves attention.

Why dont you show us?

posted 04-07-99 01:30 PM ET         

Is it possible that the AI is calling up beefier algorithms for Transcend play and these algorithms are causing the problems (since they aren't used while playing at the lower levels)?