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Author Topic:   Messy End Game

Alcatraz posted 03-30-99 01:57 PM ET
Okay, people. i want to sound off on what I consider to be the weakest part of SMAC-- the end game. For the record, I play the morganites or the university on the talent (or ocassionally above) level.
I must confess, i always really struggle with the end game. I'm a compulsive builder, and if i do go and get on the offensive, I do it to win. So by the end of the game (I play the large maps), I've killed at least one opponent, usually have 30 or so cities, a strong tech advantage, and a reasonably strong defense on my bases.
But still, i always get my butt kicked. Why? Well, first off, I find it impossible to keep the world from going to war with me. Despite the lack of atrocities on my part, and reasonably friendly relations with other partners, its inevitable every other single faction stops fighting each other and teams up against me. And I've found no effective way to fend off that many determined opponents-- besides the produgious use of planet busters. (which makes the problem worse because they all hate me even more and plus the planet starts pounding on me, too) For once, I'd sure like to see factions gangbanging each other with the enthusiasm they usually reserve for slaughtering me. Any ideas on how to stop this besides total "I'll give you what you want, just don';t hurt me"
capitulation?
Second, is the numerical problem. No matter how fast I expand, i can't seem to match some factions (most notably, the gaians and the believers) in the numbers of cities they can make and defend adequately in a short period of time. it always seems that as the game nears the top of the tech tree, the gaians and the believers have thousands of sea colonies, which produce hordes of invaders for me to fight off. My efforts to respond in kind were less successful-- i managed to produce an equal number of colonies but was unable to defend them adequately before the bad guys swooped in and easily picked them off. Again, prodigious use of planet busters doesn't work, and a conventional war just doesn't do the job because of their sheer numerical superiority and the costs of attrition. for taking each colony one by one.
So what am i trying to say? Somehow, i always end up at the end of the game fighting impossible odds against every remaining AI, who throws thousands of invaders from their millions of cities against me, and no matter how strong my empire, they always seem to wear me down. THoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
Darkstar posted 03-30-99 02:27 PM ET
Alcatraz,
Forget the buzz about this isn't a wargame. It is. The whole game revolves around Resource Management. Your Resource Processors are the Bases. The Computer knows this, and it sounds like you need to emphasis this in your game play.
Your problem is that while you are *refining* your Resource Centers (Bases), your opponents are building new Bases to act as future Resource Centers. If you can't at least manage to keep up with the expansion rate of the enemy factions, you have to go to war and deny your enemy factions access to those Resources Centers (the Bases). If the enemy is trying to defend itself, it can't focus on expansion. If it can't expand, every Resource you take away from it is irreplacable to it, and new Resources to you. Resources that can be invested in futher Military Expansion (units to take the computers bases) or Internal Refinements.
Remember, no matter how you split the game and its strategies, its all about managing to have better Resources than the competion, and maintaining or improving that balance. Since their is only one of you and many enemy, you will have to find ways to either improve your Resource Centers faster or deny the enemy his.
-Darkstar
Certhas posted 03-30-99 02:42 PM ET
Well, it might sound strange, but try higher difficulties, like thinker.
If you aren't as far ahead of the others, they are not as angry.
I'm often in the same position as you, though I have less bases (10-15) and have absolutely no problems fighting of this aggressors. In a previous game i was constantly at vendetta with at least 4 factions, and won neitherless through TtA.
Unlike Darkstar suggests, I don't think huge expansions are neccesary to equal the enemies power, eg in my latest game 90% of my energy is produced at my main base, which has a size of 40+.
Try playing at huge planets, I have to admitt that I always play on huge planets, which kinda lowers the possible aggression of the AI during Early and Midgame because of the huge distances.
cousLee posted 03-30-99 02:53 PM ET
try this. it works well against the AI but would prob not work well against human players.
first, while waiting to get probe teams, buils a small fleet of laser or impact foils (say 5 or 6 ships) go play podlotto with them untill you get probeteam capability. build a foil probe and infiltrate datalinks on every faction you can. this will let you know when the other faction is trying to build colony pods (sea or land). when the pod is nearing completion, use the artillety ability of the foils to bombard the enemy city. 98% of the time, the AI will change production. this works well when the AI is building SPs also. this helps slow down the rate at which the AI expands. play at least librarian level on large planet. try this and see if it helps your game.
edromia posted 03-30-99 04:55 PM ET
Alcatraz:
If you are at the top of the power charts, you are going to have enemies. The 2nd highest faction is nearly always going to come after you, and if the power gap gets too huge, everyone's going to join in. It makes sense, really: each faction is out to win, and if you're in the clear lead, you present a common enemy.
One thing you can try is to maintain the status quo. Make sure you don't get too far ahead. Pick one faction that you don't like (I usually target Yang) and let him get to second place, and then keep the pressure on him just enough to keep him there. Make pacts with the other factions so they all gang up on your scapegoat; give them gifts periodically to make them happy (but never enough to make them *more* powerful than your scapegoat). Use Probe Teams to keep the scapegoat from getting ahead; sabotage your pact allies and frame the scapegoat to keep everyone hating who you want them to hate. Meanwhile, of course, you've been developing your bases like crazy until a Diplomatic/Economic/Transcendant victory is within easy reach.
-M.
edromia posted 03-30-99 04:55 PM ET
Oh yeah, and pick Social Engineering choices that make all of your allies happy.
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Author	Topic: Messy End Game
Alcatraz	posted 03-30-99 01:57 PM ET Okay, people. i want to sound off on what I consider to be the weakest part of SMAC-- the end game. For the record, I play the morganites or the university on the talent (or ocassionally above) level. I must confess, i always really struggle with the end game. I'm a compulsive builder, and if i do go and get on the offensive, I do it to win. So by the end of the game (I play the large maps), I've killed at least one opponent, usually have 30 or so cities, a strong tech advantage, and a reasonably strong defense on my bases. But still, i always get my butt kicked. Why? Well, first off, I find it impossible to keep the world from going to war with me. Despite the lack of atrocities on my part, and reasonably friendly relations with other partners, its inevitable every other single faction stops fighting each other and teams up against me. And I've found no effective way to fend off that many determined opponents-- besides the produgious use of planet busters. (which makes the problem worse because they all hate me even more and plus the planet starts pounding on me, too) For once, I'd sure like to see factions gangbanging each other with the enthusiasm they usually reserve for slaughtering me. Any ideas on how to stop this besides total "I'll give you what you want, just don';t hurt me" capitulation? Second, is the numerical problem. No matter how fast I expand, i can't seem to match some factions (most notably, the gaians and the believers) in the numbers of cities they can make and defend adequately in a short period of time. it always seems that as the game nears the top of the tech tree, the gaians and the believers have thousands of sea colonies, which produce hordes of invaders for me to fight off. My efforts to respond in kind were less successful-- i managed to produce an equal number of colonies but was unable to defend them adequately before the bad guys swooped in and easily picked them off. Again, prodigious use of planet busters doesn't work, and a conventional war just doesn't do the job because of their sheer numerical superiority and the costs of attrition. for taking each colony one by one. So what am i trying to say? Somehow, i always end up at the end of the game fighting impossible odds against every remaining AI, who throws thousands of invaders from their millions of cities against me, and no matter how strong my empire, they always seem to wear me down. THoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
Darkstar	posted 03-30-99 02:27 PM ET Alcatraz, Forget the buzz about this isn't a wargame. It is. The whole game revolves around Resource Management. Your Resource Processors are the Bases. The Computer knows this, and it sounds like you need to emphasis this in your game play. Your problem is that while you are refining your Resource Centers (Bases), your opponents are building new Bases to act as future Resource Centers. If you can't at least manage to keep up with the expansion rate of the enemy factions, you have to go to war and deny your enemy factions access to those Resources Centers (the Bases). If the enemy is trying to defend itself, it can't focus on expansion. If it can't expand, every Resource you take away from it is irreplacable to it, and new Resources to you. Resources that can be invested in futher Military Expansion (units to take the computers bases) or Internal Refinements. Remember, no matter how you split the game and its strategies, its all about managing to have better Resources than the competion, and maintaining or improving that balance. Since their is only one of you and many enemy, you will have to find ways to either improve your Resource Centers faster or deny the enemy his. -Darkstar
Certhas	posted 03-30-99 02:42 PM ET Well, it might sound strange, but try higher difficulties, like thinker. If you aren't as far ahead of the others, they are not as angry. I'm often in the same position as you, though I have less bases (10-15) and have absolutely no problems fighting of this aggressors. In a previous game i was constantly at vendetta with at least 4 factions, and won neitherless through TtA. Unlike Darkstar suggests, I don't think huge expansions are neccesary to equal the enemies power, eg in my latest game 90% of my energy is produced at my main base, which has a size of 40+. Try playing at huge planets, I have to admitt that I always play on huge planets, which kinda lowers the possible aggression of the AI during Early and Midgame because of the huge distances.
cousLee	posted 03-30-99 02:53 PM ET try this. it works well against the AI but would prob not work well against human players. first, while waiting to get probe teams, buils a small fleet of laser or impact foils (say 5 or 6 ships) go play podlotto with them untill you get probeteam capability. build a foil probe and infiltrate datalinks on every faction you can. this will let you know when the other faction is trying to build colony pods (sea or land). when the pod is nearing completion, use the artillety ability of the foils to bombard the enemy city. 98% of the time, the AI will change production. this works well when the AI is building SPs also. this helps slow down the rate at which the AI expands. play at least librarian level on large planet. try this and see if it helps your game.
edromia	posted 03-30-99 04:55 PM ET Alcatraz: If you are at the top of the power charts, you are going to have enemies. The 2nd highest faction is nearly always going to come after you, and if the power gap gets too huge, everyone's going to join in. It makes sense, really: each faction is out to win, and if you're in the clear lead, you present a common enemy. One thing you can try is to maintain the status quo. Make sure you don't get too far ahead. Pick one faction that you don't like (I usually target Yang) and let him get to second place, and then keep the pressure on him just enough to keep him there. Make pacts with the other factions so they all gang up on your scapegoat; give them gifts periodically to make them happy (but never enough to make them more powerful than your scapegoat). Use Probe Teams to keep the scapegoat from getting ahead; sabotage your pact allies and frame the scapegoat to keep everyone hating who you want them to hate. Meanwhile, of course, you've been developing your bases like crazy until a Diplomatic/Economic/Transcendant victory is within easy reach. -M.
edromia	posted 03-30-99 04:55 PM ET Oh yeah, and pick Social Engineering choices that make all of your allies happy.