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Author Topic:   Chunnel Units

wkehrman posted 03-27-99 01:47 PM ET
Given our ability, in the twentieth century, to construct intricate networks of subterranean rail lines, including lines going under reasonably sizeable bodies of water, I am wondering why there is no "Chunnel building" Technology for the sea formers. It would be nice to connect my sea colonies to the mainland. Occasionally, I've captured a sea colony that was close to a fairly impressive island as far as resources go. To take advantage, I have to build a Former AND a Transport, in addition to the Sea Former I have to build because it is a sea colony.
I realize there are some advantages to NOT connecting a sea colony to the land. In particular, it provides a sort of natural defense barrier (see: Nazi plan "Operation Sealion"). Ultimately, though, it should be my option. Any chance of getting it in an update? Maybe magtubes could be modified to do this, since it would then delay the ability to connect from sea colony to land.
Just thinking aloud.
evil_conquerer posted 03-27-99 03:19 PM ET
There is not an "intricate network of subterranean rail lines" anywhere in the world. The biggest underwater roads/rails that I can think of are the Chunnel and the Chesapeake Bay Bridge (which is only partially underwater). These projects took millions of dollars and a huge amount of time. If sea magtubes were available, they maybe could only be for short stretches or alternately could cost a lot of money. The English channel is a relatively short distance compared to, say, the Atlantic Ocean. It would be hard to make sea magtubes that are realistic; they would have to have *huge* limitations in order to not be unbalanced. Also, remember that underwater magtubes raise a huge playability issue. It is a *lot* easier to send troops over land than over water. If you could just send troops across the ocean instantly instead of having to transport them, then ocean power would almost be irrelevant.
wkehrman posted 03-27-99 04:45 PM ET
Your post does bring up a couple of good points. Once I cooled down from being told I was wrong, I realized the limitations. Having stood on (and worked on) underground (that's what I meant) subway platforms, I couldn't help but recall some itricacies in, for example, the Washington D. C. system. I realize that it is not entirely underground, however, some of it is, including some of the interchanges (L'Enfant Plaza, Metro Center), at least they used to be. However, you are right, we are talking, at most, a dozen or two miles.
Having said that, we also have to come to terms with the fact that the SMAC world is one in which interstellar travel, commercial space use, fusion power and a host of other science fiction dreams are a reality. To argue against its inclusion based on cost and time is to ignore the potentials. I used current technology as a point of reference. Again, though, it is tough to fight against basic physics.
And I agree on the restrictions, perhaps limiting it to Ocean Shelf or, perhaps, within a hex or two of land. This would, in theory, still allow someone to "cross the Atlantic", however, they would be required to, basically, build a land bridge over the route anyway, I dislike having to raise Ocean squares to Ocean Shelf enough that I am unwilling to try land bridges of that sort, Though, allegedly, they are possible.
While it was a frustrating limitation in Civ/Civ II, I understood it as a legitimate technological limitation of that game--until you start talking about spaceships to Alpha Centauri, but that's a whole other thread.
Thanks for the response.
P.S. Late in the game, you CAN send troops across large expanses of water, which, in part, addresses my dilemma.
Mo posted 03-27-99 05:50 PM ET
To solve your original problem is easy, just build drop formers and air drop them onto the island. When they are finished they can just construct and airbase and parachute back or somewhere else.
eNo posted 03-27-99 06:06 PM ET
Maybe a special (and expensive) Chunnel-building unit?
Perhaps it should also be required to state to beginning and the end of the tunnel, so that you can't build a tunnel with one (or both) end(s) that opens directly into the sea.
wkehrman posted 03-27-99 09:50 PM ET
Constructing Drop Formers only works if I have a city on the island itself, though it certainly is an expedient. Once the formers are there, they can't get back to the sea colony without the Transport, and I like to keep units like that tucked away, just in case. I guess...hmmm...could a Former be Amphibious?
I did think of another way to deal with this: a base facility. It would only work if the sea colony was adjacent to a bit of land, but any sea colony could build it if that makes programming easier.
Mo posted 03-28-99 12:44 PM ET
All you need to build is an airbase and then the former can fly back. I've had a sea base and started teraforming land around it with out having a base there.
JaimeWolf posted 03-28-99 08:05 PM ET
I occasionally design an offload transport ... a transport with an infantry chassis - it costs 20 and allows land-vehicles to cross into off-shore cities.
I hadn't thought of drop-formers. Any ideas on price? Besides, dropnig is a later ability, when I like to have much of my terraforming done.
James
Zoetrope posted 03-29-99 06:54 AM ET
I don't understand the necessity for an airbase when you have a drop former. Unless they behave differently from drop troops, they can start and end their drop anywhere, and drop multiple times in each turn (the manual notwithstanding); they just suffer some damage with each drop onto open ground.
What's this offload transport? Does it have any special property that lets you transfer to an offshore island, or can every transport act as a bridge?
quizara tafwid posted 03-29-99 08:08 AM ET
And don't forget, since you can build drop formers, you can also build drop colony pods too! So no island is inaccessible to forming or colonizing! NOTE: Unlike CivII, there doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of colony pods you can use to up the size of your base (limit to size 8 in CivII) so drop that colony pod on the island, build the base and next turn, drop another 15 or so on it to make it a big base! (of course, you might want to do it a little slower than this to avoid drone problems ;-)
Also, later in the game, you do have limited cross-ocean movement with PSI gates (although only one unit per turn!)
But I do like the idea of being able to connect a base right off the shore to the mainland.
Darkstar posted 03-29-99 03:46 PM ET
Excuses excuses.
Look Gang, when you build a sea base, it isn't floating, it's underwater. (Graphic for base is misleading). So, if you can build a base under a dome (as in 20,000 Leagues Under the sea and other undersea fantasies), there is no reason to expect that you can't build mag-tubes underwater. You have the building material to withstand the DEEPEST depths of planets oceans and the know-how to do so when you get pressure domes. You have reasonable super-conductors and what not when you get mag tube. So what is the difficulty? There is NONE.
Trying to use cost as a reason not to is silly. You don't think that it wasn't millions (or even billions) of dollars to build mag-tubes between your cities? Of course it was!
So the only REAL reason that is justifiable is game balance, and seeing as their is no real balance to begin with in SMAC, I find that reason to be unacceptable.
I want my sea mag tubes!
In fact, I want to be able to put a mining station anywhere in the sea. I can understand not being able to place a kelp forest in depths greater than light penetrates, but structures that depend on the sea floor, and what lies under it are not limited by such petty things. If you can build (and maintain) a city underwater, then there is no reason to limit what other structures are applicable to the sea as well.
-Darkstar
Purple posted 03-29-99 04:04 PM ET
In all the discussion of the need for chunnels, here and elsewhere, I haven't seen anyone mention ferry boats.
A sea base separated from a landmass by no more than one square can be connected to it by stationing a transport unit in the gap. I call them ferries. A land unit can pass directly from land to the sea base, expending one extra movement point to do so.
Of course, this also works between nearby land masses.
It seems so obvious, I wonder whether I'm overlooking some big disadvantage. Is it a waste of resources? FBs need not be fixed; they could also serve as normal short-haul transports, but should be kept within a couple of moves from its key location.
Purple
Pericles posted 03-29-99 04:29 PM ET
I agree. There should be submarine mag tubes. Perhaps they would take a long time to build, two or three times as long as land tubes, but they should be possible. If you accept boreholes and quantum power, then submarine tubes are hardly a stretch.
Perhaps in a future patch?
Plus, think of the tourism potential. Transparent tubes mean great coral reefs to look at.
wkehrman posted 04-01-99 12:55 AM ET
New problem, for what it's worth. I can't drop ANY troops onto a sea base, my own or an enemies. Oh well, I guess I can't have everything my way.
Bill
P.S. Boy when they said that Planet comes after you when you pop nukes, they weren't kidding!
lprent posted 04-01-99 03:01 AM ET
Why not use your sea formers to raise the land around the seabase to join it to the island ?
Haven't tried it myself - but I have lowered the land to distance myself from an estwhile ally Lal who keep sending probes into my cities. Unfortunately, I needed his double votes in the council, so I couldn't toast him for a while....
RandomAction posted 04-01-99 06:11 AM ET
wkehrmans' idea is excellent. Both undersea connecting sea bases to land, and also undergound networks connecting bases on ground. You could move units between cites undetectably. In order for enemy factions to make use of them they would need to take control of a connected city.
To ensure balance the time to teraform and cost of tunnel teraformers can be adjusted.
Perhaps a 'sub-station' base facility needs to be built to access a tunnel. If a base was about to be overrun you could sell off the sub-station and prevent the enemy from getting immediate access to your other bases.
There are loads of ways it could be integrated into the game that would provide an entirely new facet to the game.
wkehrman brilliant idea!!
wkehrman posted 04-01-99 12:12 PM ET
An interesting side note to RandomAction's statement. During WWI, the Allies (and probably the Central Powers too) used pretty much that strategy to get reinforcements up to the front lines as well as getting them close enough to attack. In short they dug tunnels, called subways, to get away from the artillery units and get in close to the enemy lines. Once close enough, the engineers would drop the ceiling and form a ramp up to the surface. IIRC, that's how the Canadians began the assault on Vimy Ridge.
Might make for an interresting change, especially for Yang, who builds subterranean anyway! You'd have to build sensors and ferret units, etc.

Once more unto the breach dear friends! Once more! Or close up the walls with our English dead!--Henry V, datalinks
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Author	Topic: Chunnel Units
wkehrman	posted 03-27-99 01:47 PM ET Given our ability, in the twentieth century, to construct intricate networks of subterranean rail lines, including lines going under reasonably sizeable bodies of water, I am wondering why there is no "Chunnel building" Technology for the sea formers. It would be nice to connect my sea colonies to the mainland. Occasionally, I've captured a sea colony that was close to a fairly impressive island as far as resources go. To take advantage, I have to build a Former AND a Transport, in addition to the Sea Former I have to build because it is a sea colony. I realize there are some advantages to NOT connecting a sea colony to the land. In particular, it provides a sort of natural defense barrier (see: Nazi plan "Operation Sealion"). Ultimately, though, it should be my option. Any chance of getting it in an update? Maybe magtubes could be modified to do this, since it would then delay the ability to connect from sea colony to land. Just thinking aloud.
evil_conquerer	posted 03-27-99 03:19 PM ET There is not an "intricate network of subterranean rail lines" anywhere in the world. The biggest underwater roads/rails that I can think of are the Chunnel and the Chesapeake Bay Bridge (which is only partially underwater). These projects took millions of dollars and a huge amount of time. If sea magtubes were available, they maybe could only be for short stretches or alternately could cost a lot of money. The English channel is a relatively short distance compared to, say, the Atlantic Ocean. It would be hard to make sea magtubes that are realistic; they would have to have huge limitations in order to not be unbalanced. Also, remember that underwater magtubes raise a huge playability issue. It is a lot easier to send troops over land than over water. If you could just send troops across the ocean instantly instead of having to transport them, then ocean power would almost be irrelevant.
wkehrman	posted 03-27-99 04:45 PM ET Your post does bring up a couple of good points. Once I cooled down from being told I was wrong, I realized the limitations. Having stood on (and worked on) underground (that's what I meant) subway platforms, I couldn't help but recall some itricacies in, for example, the Washington D. C. system. I realize that it is not entirely underground, however, some of it is, including some of the interchanges (L'Enfant Plaza, Metro Center), at least they used to be. However, you are right, we are talking, at most, a dozen or two miles. Having said that, we also have to come to terms with the fact that the SMAC world is one in which interstellar travel, commercial space use, fusion power and a host of other science fiction dreams are a reality. To argue against its inclusion based on cost and time is to ignore the potentials. I used current technology as a point of reference. Again, though, it is tough to fight against basic physics. And I agree on the restrictions, perhaps limiting it to Ocean Shelf or, perhaps, within a hex or two of land. This would, in theory, still allow someone to "cross the Atlantic", however, they would be required to, basically, build a land bridge over the route anyway, I dislike having to raise Ocean squares to Ocean Shelf enough that I am unwilling to try land bridges of that sort, Though, allegedly, they are possible. While it was a frustrating limitation in Civ/Civ II, I understood it as a legitimate technological limitation of that game--until you start talking about spaceships to Alpha Centauri, but that's a whole other thread. Thanks for the response. P.S. Late in the game, you CAN send troops across large expanses of water, which, in part, addresses my dilemma.
Mo	posted 03-27-99 05:50 PM ET To solve your original problem is easy, just build drop formers and air drop them onto the island. When they are finished they can just construct and airbase and parachute back or somewhere else.
eNo	posted 03-27-99 06:06 PM ET Maybe a special (and expensive) Chunnel-building unit? Perhaps it should also be required to state to beginning and the end of the tunnel, so that you can't build a tunnel with one (or both) end(s) that opens directly into the sea.
wkehrman	posted 03-27-99 09:50 PM ET Constructing Drop Formers only works if I have a city on the island itself, though it certainly is an expedient. Once the formers are there, they can't get back to the sea colony without the Transport, and I like to keep units like that tucked away, just in case. I guess...hmmm...could a Former be Amphibious? I did think of another way to deal with this: a base facility. It would only work if the sea colony was adjacent to a bit of land, but any sea colony could build it if that makes programming easier.
Mo	posted 03-28-99 12:44 PM ET All you need to build is an airbase and then the former can fly back. I've had a sea base and started teraforming land around it with out having a base there.
JaimeWolf	posted 03-28-99 08:05 PM ET I occasionally design an offload transport ... a transport with an infantry chassis - it costs 20 and allows land-vehicles to cross into off-shore cities. I hadn't thought of drop-formers. Any ideas on price? Besides, dropnig is a later ability, when I like to have much of my terraforming done. James
Zoetrope	posted 03-29-99 06:54 AM ET I don't understand the necessity for an airbase when you have a drop former. Unless they behave differently from drop troops, they can start and end their drop anywhere, and drop multiple times in each turn (the manual notwithstanding); they just suffer some damage with each drop onto open ground. What's this offload transport? Does it have any special property that lets you transfer to an offshore island, or can every transport act as a bridge?
quizara tafwid	posted 03-29-99 08:08 AM ET And don't forget, since you can build drop formers, you can also build drop colony pods too! So no island is inaccessible to forming or colonizing! NOTE: Unlike CivII, there doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of colony pods you can use to up the size of your base (limit to size 8 in CivII) so drop that colony pod on the island, build the base and next turn, drop another 15 or so on it to make it a big base! (of course, you might want to do it a little slower than this to avoid drone problems ;-) Also, later in the game, you do have limited cross-ocean movement with PSI gates (although only one unit per turn!) But I do like the idea of being able to connect a base right off the shore to the mainland.
Darkstar	posted 03-29-99 03:46 PM ET Excuses excuses. Look Gang, when you build a sea base, it isn't floating, it's underwater. (Graphic for base is misleading). So, if you can build a base under a dome (as in 20,000 Leagues Under the sea and other undersea fantasies), there is no reason to expect that you can't build mag-tubes underwater. You have the building material to withstand the DEEPEST depths of planets oceans and the know-how to do so when you get pressure domes. You have reasonable super-conductors and what not when you get mag tube. So what is the difficulty? There is NONE. Trying to use cost as a reason not to is silly. You don't think that it wasn't millions (or even billions) of dollars to build mag-tubes between your cities? Of course it was! So the only REAL reason that is justifiable is game balance, and seeing as their is no real balance to begin with in SMAC, I find that reason to be unacceptable. I want my sea mag tubes! In fact, I want to be able to put a mining station anywhere in the sea. I can understand not being able to place a kelp forest in depths greater than light penetrates, but structures that depend on the sea floor, and what lies under it are not limited by such petty things. If you can build (and maintain) a city underwater, then there is no reason to limit what other structures are applicable to the sea as well. -Darkstar
Purple	posted 03-29-99 04:04 PM ET In all the discussion of the need for chunnels, here and elsewhere, I haven't seen anyone mention ferry boats. A sea base separated from a landmass by no more than one square can be connected to it by stationing a transport unit in the gap. I call them ferries. A land unit can pass directly from land to the sea base, expending one extra movement point to do so. Of course, this also works between nearby land masses. It seems so obvious, I wonder whether I'm overlooking some big disadvantage. Is it a waste of resources? FBs need not be fixed; they could also serve as normal short-haul transports, but should be kept within a couple of moves from its key location. Purple
Pericles	posted 03-29-99 04:29 PM ET I agree. There should be submarine mag tubes. Perhaps they would take a long time to build, two or three times as long as land tubes, but they should be possible. If you accept boreholes and quantum power, then submarine tubes are hardly a stretch. Perhaps in a future patch? Plus, think of the tourism potential. Transparent tubes mean great coral reefs to look at.
wkehrman	posted 04-01-99 12:55 AM ET New problem, for what it's worth. I can't drop ANY troops onto a sea base, my own or an enemies. Oh well, I guess I can't have everything my way. Bill P.S. Boy when they said that Planet comes after you when you pop nukes, they weren't kidding!
lprent	posted 04-01-99 03:01 AM ET Why not use your sea formers to raise the land around the seabase to join it to the island ? Haven't tried it myself - but I have lowered the land to distance myself from an estwhile ally Lal who keep sending probes into my cities. Unfortunately, I needed his double votes in the council, so I couldn't toast him for a while....
RandomAction	posted 04-01-99 06:11 AM ET wkehrmans' idea is excellent. Both undersea connecting sea bases to land, and also undergound networks connecting bases on ground. You could move units between cites undetectably. In order for enemy factions to make use of them they would need to take control of a connected city. To ensure balance the time to teraform and cost of tunnel teraformers can be adjusted. Perhaps a 'sub-station' base facility needs to be built to access a tunnel. If a base was about to be overrun you could sell off the sub-station and prevent the enemy from getting immediate access to your other bases. There are loads of ways it could be integrated into the game that would provide an entirely new facet to the game. wkehrman brilliant idea!!
wkehrman	posted 04-01-99 12:12 PM ET An interesting side note to RandomAction's statement. During WWI, the Allies (and probably the Central Powers too) used pretty much that strategy to get reinforcements up to the front lines as well as getting them close enough to attack. In short they dug tunnels, called subways, to get away from the artillery units and get in close to the enemy lines. Once close enough, the engineers would drop the ceiling and form a ramp up to the surface. IIRC, that's how the Canadians began the assault on Vimy Ridge. Might make for an interresting change, especially for Yang, who builds subterranean anyway! You'd have to build sensors and ferret units, etc. Once more unto the breach dear friends! Once more! Or close up the walls with our English dead!--Henry V, datalinks