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If your AMERICAN - do you think we should get involved with Kosovo....
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Alpha Centauri Forums
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If your AMERICAN - do you think we should get involved with Kosovo....
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| Author | Topic: If your AMERICAN - do you think we should get involved with Kosovo.... |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-23-99 06:17 PM ET  
I believe as a American we should stay out of this civil war.Please give your views to the situation, and how do you think this war would end if it is started......
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| Rong |
posted 03-23-99 06:20 PM ET
Where is Kosovo? In University territory? I say we PB them. PB them all. |
| spgfcs |
posted 03-23-99 06:24 PM ET
America seems alot like Peacekeeper Lal. In other words - "stay peaceful or well kick the **** out of you!" This is Europe's business. If it's in Mexico or South America its different, but it's not like the European nations are complete wimps who can't deal with it themselves. (or are they???) - Fred (from Wisconsin) |
| Shining1 |
posted 03-23-99 06:36 PM ET
*sigh* World War II attitude all over again. "It's okay provided they keep it over there..." Listen, this forum is definitely not the place to post such things. But since you're probably going to get a massive response anyway, I've got a couple of points: * America is a part of Nato. Thus it has agreed to take a bit of responsibility for events in Europe. Nato without the U.S/U.K alliance is just French politics. * Kosovo is real. This s**t is really going down, and the west has a responsibility to look after people who want their freedom. Y'all fought a revolution against the English to pioneer such ideals. Keep it up. * The U.S has already been heavily involved in the diplomatic side of Kosovo. Richard Holbrook is a dead set legend - give the man a medal or whatever it is you do. If you want to play the diplomacy game in future, you have to take action now. Saddam's already laughing in your face - Milosevic looks like he's going to be next. |
| agoraphobe |
posted 03-23-99 06:38 PM ET
I want to play the Serbian faction :< Really, this is blatantly off-topic. There are lots of NEWS forums where you can have serious discussion of such topics - even with non-Americans. |
| IkshahI |
posted 03-23-99 06:43 PM ET
screw off topicness, this err... relates to the... uhh... diplomacy [?] in SMAC. And YES WE SHOULD!! America's job is too police the world.. |
| Phueschen |
posted 03-23-99 06:48 PM ET
Kosovo? While I dont like whats happening over there, why does the world aways expect the USA to come to thier rescue? Why should we have to risk US soldiers for a problem that doesnt relate to us? I have heard the arguments that it will spill over into other countires, etc... Whats the answer? Damn if I know. Maybe bombing them is the only answer. But at what cost is it? Bosnia managed to shoot down one of our boys, how many will a military like the Yogo's be able to shoot down? Remember they just (3 years ago) upgraded thier anti-air weapons. What will happen? Only time and God knows. Peter Hueschen |
| Hammer |
posted 03-23-99 06:49 PM ET
Hell of a question Undertaker. To boil it down to the shortest answer I can, my answer is a resounding NO, but with caveats. I feel it's a very complex and delicate situation. In the simpler days of yore, I would say yes we should lend a hand. In todays world though, it never pays (Somalia as example), and the rest of the world (possible rightfully so) resents the USA's self-appointed, self-agrandizing, rather patronizing role in this reguard. My major concern is the entire area is relatively volotile. I believe the administrations main concern is with this volatility, not with Kosovo specifically (although they may believe this Milosovich madman needs to be pruned). The domino theory applies here in my opinion. There is also the humanitarian aspect, which is lost in all of the nationalism, anti-Americanism, and general political hyperbole. I do worry for the area in terms of both volotality and humanitarian aspects for the people who suffer there. From bits I have seen and read some of the suffering is unspeakable, needless, cruel, and unbefitting of any human to suffer through, or perpetrate on another. Humans are such sad, atrocious creatures when their back is to the wall. But times are not what they used to be, and America needs to get off of it's condescending/patronizing posture and let other people work out their own situations. If the USA continues to get involved, it will pay the price, I believe that is more and more evident with each situation. In the age of potential nuclear terrorism, the time has come for USA to stay at home. The USA, eventually, will only victimize itself in any peacekeeping endeavor, and our Adminstration owes more to us Americans than to other countries or the world at large. We've got huge, huge, huge problems here at home. The rest of the worlds' views on America will come to a disastrous climax if the USA continues to get involved in these incidents. We should have left Somalia alone, we should have left everything since Somalia alone (including previous NATO bombings in Kosovo). Iraq is the only worthwhile endeavor where true world political balance is at stake, and I really have no care what other people think of us in reguard to Iraq because to a sane person the problem there is blatantly obvious. As for the rest, enough is enough, take care of home. Get out of the Iraq situation as soon as possible. Leave the world to itself, only get involved militarily if an ally is threatened, and apply political pressure/expertise/aid where we can to help but that's it. Apparently the citizens of the rest of the world appear to want it that way, if you believe the things we hear and read. I recently had the pleasure of living in Europe for a year, and getting away from the US media and really hearing about the world from a different perspective. It really is interesting, beyond words really, how much that changes your perspective of America, and how others feel about her. One of the most eye opening experiences of my (semi-)adult life. There are many, many, many elements to the general debate though. It is not a very simple issue. Huge ramifications to any decision, for USA, for Europe, for the world. The world is becoming a sorry place. It is sad, sad, sad to watch. The human condition is a pathetic, pathetic, shameful thing -=Hammer |
| Shining1 |
posted 03-23-99 07:01 PM ET
Phueschen: If you don't want to act outside america, then don't send diplomats in the first place. If you want to have any influence in the world, you need to back up what you say properly. Quite frankly, I find your "one american pilot is worth any number of Kosovo peasants" attitude disturbing. But I'm not going to get angry about it. Please explain your position more fully. |
| yin26 |
posted 03-23-99 07:16 PM ET
Clearly the only solution is for America to invade Europe. Listen, those people had several centuries to get it right. They can't. They are already a mentally and spiritually conquered people. Let's just wrap it up and put them under guardianship. If need be, let's just level the whole damn place and make it a parking lot, the world's biggest shopping mall, a nuclear waste dump--you know, something that represents wholesome American values. American has already won the cultural war. I think now is a good time to just finish the job in earnest. God has clearly appointed Americans to this task. And you Australians better not get any delusions of grandeur. Australia better just sit down and shut up, or it's next on the invasion list. Just keep producing quality movies like Crocodile Dundee and we might let you squeek by. But I'm sick of the way you people talk. Fix that. You're losing points because of that. |
| Hammer |
posted 03-23-99 07:23 PM ET
Yin... I'm not following your point, I'm sorry. Maybe I am just too dense? I think you are making a point there but I'm not getting it... explain? -=Hammer |
| Phueschen |
posted 03-23-99 07:32 PM ET
Shining1, where are you from? Yes, I do have an isolationist attitude, but it's only because I havent seen anything possitive come from being a hawk. Iraq: we invaded and what happened? (and Im in favor of the Gulf war)we freed one country only to keep iraq as a new bombing range. somolia: we invade, some of our troops and thiers die. The UN and NATO decides that the job is done and we leave. Result: people are still killing each other in droves in that country. Hati: (our neck of the woods) we invade, kick one guy out only to have the UN pull us before anything happens. result: nothing happned except replacing one bad dictator for another bad dictator. Bosnia: we bomb and bomb and nothing happend. Result: Lots of people dead on the bombing end and massacers(sp) are still happening. Peter |
| CrayonX |
posted 03-23-99 07:34 PM ET
All I'm going to say is... It didn't take long to get involved with Iraq... To what end, America? CrayonX (Canadian) |
| Victor Galis |
posted 03-23-99 07:38 PM ET
First of all this is the wrong forum for this debate, take it to Non-SMAC. Secondly, some comments are remarkably nationalist and arrongant. I think you should keep your "peacekeepers" out. The world is not America's personal empire. All of these actions "for the good of Europe" are America building up its empire. The American Empire must be stopped before it destroys all of our culture and values. We do not need America to treat countries like protectorates. We don't need the imperialists here. I suppose my point is jumbled with antionalist rhetoric, <i>shigata ga nai</i>. Please go to Non-SMAC, the Kosovo debate there is far more rational. |
| yin26 |
posted 03-23-99 07:40 PM ET
Victor, Our stealth bombers are locked on your location as we speak. Cease and desist. |
| Shining1 |
posted 03-23-99 07:40 PM ET
Yin: "American has already won the cultural war." - compared to Europe? Well, you're doing pretty well, but you haven't really delivered any final knockout blows. Mel Gibson in 'Pay Back'? No, I'll watch Vinnie Jones in 'Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels', thankyou. American music? No, I'd rather hear Prodigy or Pavarotti than Puff Daddy or Prince any day. Sport? UEFA beats the NBA by so much that it's not worth arguing about. And at least Europe has heard of rugby, even if they can't play it. America only gets bonus points for having money and (comparitively) stable politics. (Geez, you get one lukewarm affair and the whole countries on the brink of collapse. In Europe they don't elect you until you're on your fourth marriage. Not that you guys don't know anything about divorce, though And besides, you've invaded Europe to save them from themselves at least twice already this century. What's another bombing for old time's sake |
| Hammer |
posted 03-23-99 07:49 PM ET
Victor, what is irrational about this debate? Yin's comments are in pure satire I believe, you get that yes?? I don't see anything here that is irrational. Maybe you could point out the irrational comments? BTW, you are correct, this is waaaaaaaaay off topic in this forum... but here it is. -=Hammer |
| Victor Galis |
posted 03-23-99 07:51 PM ET
The American Police State may be strong, but your conspiracies are discovered! The American Empire will collapse before long, and give rise to "the next great superpower." Now that was was a good thread! |
| Shining1 |
posted 03-23-99 07:52 PM ET
Peter: Sorry, missed your post. Very good point. But you ask what else can be done? Nothing. Either we (you) step in now, and again in six months, etc, to keep the peace, or else the Serbs continue their Ethinic cleansing (read: Liebensraum) campaign unchecked. Yeah, I'm from New Zealand, and I apologise for my comments, if you have family in the firing line it is a whole different story entirely. I don't have friends or siblings liable to step into battle if the bombings commence (now highly likely, anyway). But I do see the Kosovo people being driven out of their villages, pounded with artillery, and having to walk miles and miles through the snow to god knows where because they have been expelled from their HOMES. THEY are someone's family as well, and that's what makes me upset. I don't know if the bombing campaign will make a difference. Maybe modern avionics are up to the task of destroying artillery in dense forest, maybe not. And we might lose some planes - we might not. The no fly zone in Iraq has a nearly 100% record, and the Iraqis aren't firing popguns at the jets (as two Parliamentary enquires and the Iraqgate? investigation have shown). Roll on the strikes. Enough of this Serbian s**t. Flame the bastards. |
| Hammer |
posted 03-23-99 07:57 PM ET
Ah, Victor, I read your posts in the non-smac thread and now I see what's up with you. Disreguard my previous question. -=Hammer |
| player2 |
posted 03-23-99 08:01 PM ET
A long time ago, in a country far far away, a single slavic revolutionary assasinated the Archduke of Austria-Hungary in Sarayevo, igniting the first world war, and later the second. Millions of people died, both soldier and civilian alike; man, woman, and child. Germans, English, French, Russian, Japs, Chinese, Koreans, and Americans, to name a few, all died by the millions; slaughtered by a war machine that started in the little insignificant country of Yugoslavia. People, this kind of thing can't be allowed to happen again. If our country has the power to stop the merciless slaughter of innocent people, then it is our God given RESPONSIBILITY to act on behalf of the defenseless women and children that are being caught in the crossfire. I am part Serbian, and what is going on in Kosovo sickens me. I fully support NATO and their decision to stop Milosovitch's madness. People in this region have been killing each other for centuries, and it must come to an end. I don't want my kids to become cannon foder in a war started because mankind could not learn from its mistakes. God help us all, because if we can't help ourselves, who will? |
| Victor Galis |
posted 03-23-99 08:15 PM ET
"Liebensraum" Perhaps you mean "Lebensraum." Liebensraum- loving space (or room). Read the Non-SMAC forums for my true opinion. I don't know; it's something about the game forum that doesn't allow me to carry on an intelligent debate. |
| Jimmy |
posted 03-23-99 08:17 PM ET
Undertaker: I just want to point out in a friendly nice kind of way that I posted this exact topic in the non-SMAC section before you did. |
| yin26 |
posted 03-23-99 08:21 PM ET
Good job, Jimmy! Take THAT Undertaker! |
| Shining1 |
posted 03-23-99 09:26 PM ET
VG: yeah, my german really and truly sucks. But I'm trying... |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-23-99 09:34 PM ET
Opps didn't see it in the Non-SMAC forum Jimmy, so for that I am sorry... I am heading there now.. |
| Dutch Boy |
posted 03-23-99 10:25 PM ET
I'm Dutch and I think America should shut up and stop playing "coolest country in the world", because they're not, obviously, a lot of the American people are under the impression that U.S. soldiers are worth 100 points and Kosovorians (or whatever) and Serbs are worth 1 point, so why should they care, exactly the same attitude as in Vietnam (who gives a **** about the civilians). One movie I saw (okay, it was just a movie, but not entirely fictional) has U.S. Soldiers saying, oh, what the ****, they're only yellow niggers. In fact, a friend of mine used to work for the UN in Bosnia (she's Slovenian and worked as an interpreter) and the main thing U.S. troops asked her was if she wanted to **** for a box of Marlboro. Anyway, I think NATO (minus U.S.) shouldn't have any problems bombing or sending groundtroops on their own, as they were pretty confident that they could stop a soviet invasion ten years ago so a couple of old jets and tanks shouldn't be that much of a problem. So, what should the U.S. do, well they should un-click Police state and Fundamentalist in their social engineering table, lower drinking age to 16 (like all decent countries in the world do) and stop selling guns and landmines all over the world to stimulate their economy. Any INTELLECTUAL responses are welcome |
| Tin Cow |
posted 03-23-99 10:28 PM ET
I think the Serbs should bomb America. Los Angeles to be specific. Hell, any country should bomb LA. I hate that place. |
| Fragboy |
posted 03-24-99 01:08 AM ET
I think that america SHOULD be involved, but not in the way it is now. We should do a total blockade of the country, let any civilians who want to, leave, and not let anything in or out. Let the fire burn itself out. They will eventually run out of ammo, and the supplies to make more ammo, and then we can demilitarize it, and try and set up a new goverment for the people still living there. |
| Silt |
posted 03-24-99 02:14 AM ET
Anyone every notice that the two subjects you see get bashed the most on the web is: 1) America and 2) Microsoft. Now...what could it be that these two have in common? Could it be that both have risen from nowhere and become the most dominate force in thier respective "categories"? I guess it's just human nature to hate whoever is king of thier respective hills. Amazing how jealousy will make other countries/companies act. Hmmm..I guess another thing they both have in common is that millions of people have piggy backed thier success to prosper themselves, and then turn right around and belittle that which made them successful. One bad thing about being at the top is, nobody likes you. One good thing about being at the top, though, is that you don't really have to care if anyone likes you. Silt |
| Aredhran |
posted 03-24-99 08:04 AM ET
It's a simple process really : 1. Call Planetary Council No more Serbs. Everyone happily goes back to SMAC. -Aredhran |
| Serenity |
posted 03-24-99 09:23 AM ET
First of all, I'm from Finland... Just to clear the nationality-thingy out of the way... About USA in Kosovo... Well, to my knowledge, it's not USA that's going to attack Serbs, but NATO. Many of the pilots/planes going in are from Great Britain or some other NATO country. I mean, NATO has several members-states!! USA isn't the only nation in NATO!! And about those "USA is the greatest!!/USA sucks!!"-thingies... Are people really that stupid???? I'm from Finland, and I love this country, and it's only natural for me to think that Finland is better than other countries (at least we are better than Sweden *grin*!!). But thinking obectively... No country is better than other!! Countries are DIFFERENT, but that doesn't make some countries better than others!! Sure, USA has the most powerful army in the world... But does that make USA "better"?? I have a friend in USA, and she complained that she's having difficulties because she doesn't have alot of money, and it's really expensive to study in university. When I told her that in Finland, studying is free, and in fact, government pays you when you study (not much, but enough to live on), she got really envious... But does that make Finland "better" than USA?? It's OK to love the country you were born in/live in... I know I do... But NEVER think that your country is somehow superior to other countries, no matter how powerful your economy or military is!! Every single country on this planet has something to contribute to the world. Right now, Jugoslavia isn't really popular... But they did host Olympics in the 80's... And in the future, things in Jugoslavia will work out... Can't we all just get along?!?! |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-24-99 09:50 AM ET
Well that's not true Serenity, about 55% percent of the NATO forces are American. Only yesterday many American Senators asked the question what is NATO without America.And even the President was quoted as saying America is NATO's leader.... In Great Britian , Parliament asked there Prime Minister Blair that these attacks will severely hamper security in other regions of British interest. About 20 American Stealth Bombers are in AVIANO Air Force Base in Italy.A plane which most Europe nations can't even afford...Can't even afford 1 but we have 20 over there protecting your country... DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, |
| Serenity |
posted 03-24-99 10:11 AM ET
True, USA is the most dominant nation in NATO... But does 55% mean that it's the ONLY nation??? What about the other 45%?? What would NATO be without UK, Germany, France, Italy, Greece etc. and the bases they provide for US/NATO forces?? Majority of planes involved in Kosovo will operate from bases in Italy... True, some will operate from american carriers... And Like I said, there are other countries involved besides USA. And the fact is, USA is the only country in the world that can act as an "Worlds police"... Should USA be that, is another matter... But no other country spends so much money on defence, so it's only natural, that USAs military is the strongest in the world... And besides, nobody is forcing USA to act as a worlds police. Protecting my country??? What do you mean?? Finland has no links with NATO (well, we are in the Partnership for Peace-program), we have no ongoing internal or external conflicts... What do you mean by protecting my country?? Yes, we can't afford Stealth Bombers... Like I said, no country on earth spends so much money on defence, and why should we?? |
| micje |
posted 03-24-99 11:34 AM ET
What's happening in Kosovo now, and what happened in Bosnia a couple of years before, is comparable to what happened in Germany during WWII. Genocide. Mass murder. Crimes against humanity. That's why the USA and Europe, and all civilized countries have the duty to stop these atrocities. And all civilized people have the moral obligation to disregard their selfish interests, and to support sanctions and military action against the aggressors. What the UN has achieved in Bosnia is not as much as has been hoped for. But Bosnia is a relatively safe now. The war is over there. And that is owing to the NATO and the UN, in which the Americans have played a major role. Kudos America! Remember, if the USA have earned themselves a bad reputation, it's in spite of their intervention in Bosnia, in Somalia, in Iraq, and especially, in Europe during 40-45. They have won a lot of credit for that. It was their crusade against communism, and their support of right-wing corrupt police state regimes that came with it (Cuba, Chili,Vietnam) that lost them a lot of respect in Europe. Of course, Europe is more to blame for Bosnia and Kosovo, and the sorry state of world affairs in general, but you can't blame Europe, because it doesn't exist as a whole. It should exist! It should have a decent foreign policy, and trash tolitarian regimes everywhere on earth, together with the USA! But well, God should exist too... |
| Kalanis |
posted 03-24-99 11:52 AM ET
Hey, as long as we're gonna send men to die for people who will be killing each other till the end of time, we might as well take a Roosevelt (teddy) attitude toward the whole affair. I mean, come on, what happened to imperialism?!! Think of all the oil wealth we could have claimed in Iraq, but NO, we had to play the wussie UN "peacekeeper" role and hold back. No everyone is complaining about Saddam because he gasses his own people! WE HAD THE CHANCE! Our tanks could have been resting in Baghdad while Saddam lay in a pool of his own blood, instead of drinking other people's. I know this all sounds evil, and imperialism isn't a popular idea, but WHY NOT? When you do something you should do it RIGHT. Some enimes must be destroyed. I have no love of American "culture" (in fact I believe it's a contradiction in terms.) but power does not attach itself to the weak. Why do we ignore the rules that others have followed for centuries? What's so bad about occupation or conquest? It would be saving the Iraqi people from a worse existance. Without clear enimies or a stable agenda a nation is blind and incapable. I feel no pride in babysitting waring ethnic groups, I DO feel pride in my country when they use our power to exterminate evil...this happens too little. Anyway, keep your flames short, I know I'm asking for them...and PAX AMERICANA! |
| MikeH II |
posted 03-24-99 12:08 PM ET
Well you need to look at the situation like this: Is there oil there? If the answer to any of these questions is yes then get in there and kick some 'ass'. Preferably using only airstrikes and getting British Tornadoes to do anything really dangerous. Oh and that tank with the bloody great Union Jack on it chasing the enemy IT'S ON YOUR SIDE YOU DON'T NEED TO SHOOT IT! Or if you want me to put it another way. I wrote something bad about America please flame me. |
| AcidJazz |
posted 03-24-99 12:12 PM ET
Quite simply, what's going on in Yugoslavia is another Genocide similar to what happened in World War II (i know it's a much smaller scale). Nato's actions are to stop this horror before it gets out of hand and Milosevic decides he can continue his march beyond Kosovo into Macedonia, etc... |
| SailorUranus |
posted 03-24-99 12:22 PM ET
One arguement: If we let one genocidal maniac get away with his atrocities, what do we do when the next genocidal maniac rises to power? Arguement two: The ye olde "Domino Thoery", slightly modified. The thinking is if nothing is done now, the Balkan Wars will spread (and Greece borders the Balkan nations. If they get involved, we WILL get involved, else it's goodbye NATO.) Arguement 3: The potential for a public relations disaster with elections around the corner. Any other arguements? Iraq was fought not on combating atrocites or anything else but for two things, economics and public relations. Kuwait is very oil rich, but Iraq was the closest thing to a Pro-West Mideast nation before the war. |
| Bdot |
posted 03-24-99 12:22 PM ET
as they said on Politically Incorrect... Clinton's bombing another country? ok.. who is he sleeping with now? |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-24-99 12:40 PM ET
UPDATE....UPDATE.....UPDATE Night-time has fallen on Yugoslavia, CNN sources are predicting bombing to commence in a matter of minutes.... A war is going to start today with no one understanding the consequences.China has contacted Russia and are against this action against Serbia. Russian President Yeltsin reminding CNN on a televised interview that there is still a long alliance between Serbia and Russia one which dates back to 1920's. This is a prelude to WW1 and 2. So let's all see what the end result will be to this war.And let's all pray for our American forces out there.I am going to start right now.... DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, God bless America, God bless our forces.... |
| Rong |
posted 03-24-99 01:08 PM ET
The first thing we should bomb is undertaker who shamelessly post off-topic threads in the game forum. In a desperate attempt the save the situation, here is Kosovo in SMACterms (did I just invent that?). Over the long years, the American Federation has risen to the most powerful faction on the planet, leading the race in technology, military and overall might. Then one day this small weak faction called Yugoslavia starts to have serious drone problems. Drone riots are going out of control. So they build punishment spheres. So they nerve staple the drones. Yet, the problem keeps coming back. The faction leaders are desperate. They start to obliterate theiw own bases. Suddenly the world is against them. Not only were they sanctioned, American Federation, along with its pact brothers and sisters, decide to drop conventional missiles, send in needlejets for bombing runs. Strongly suspecting faction cleansing under humanitarian flags, Yugoslavia calls its pact brother, Russian Federation, and its sympathiser, China Hives, for help. A planet wide war breaks out, they start hurling Planet Busters at each other. Eco-damage is astronomical, sea level starts rising. Your only hope now, is to ascend to transcendence before everything goes into flames. |
| Oleg Leschoff |
posted 03-24-99 01:29 PM ET
Kalamis with some others: What a mess. Those thinks that the power is only decision to exterminate evil. The only thing to answer is my apologies for so short intellect. The problem of USA is that it has got those too many weapons and just don't knows what to do with them, while thying to test them where it's possible. You know, it's your people don't knows what are their taxes expended for -- not for education, not for anything else but for this ridiculus power that hasn't place in the civilized world, but still has in america. So those events are possible explaining to you're, yeah? Please excuse me for my poor english One of Russians, the main winners of WWII (hehe, yeah, WITH some help from USA with weapons etc -- that's true) |
| uncleroggy |
posted 03-24-99 02:02 PM ET
Undertaker, Although I think you should have posted in the non-SMAC forum, I'm glad you put it here as it has stimulated some thought.
I am a reservist Cavalry officer and like in the Gulf War, I stand a chance of having to personally be involved in this conflict. My chances for involvement increase exponentially once the shooting starts and casualties are taken as I will be assigned to a unit to make up for combat losses. Given this, I would appreciate it if you all could help me with a couple of things. 1) Serbs and Kosovites have been killing each other for over 600 years. As a result, who are the bad guys in all of this? 2) Who am I supposed to kill and why? 3) What am I supposed to do when a Russian tank shows up and doesn't like what I'm doing? 4) Other than kill people, what am I supposed to do? 5) What am I supposed to say in the letters that I will have to write to the families of my men who are killed and wounded? 6) What will my commander write to my family if I am killed or wounded? I hope these questions will add a bit of realism for those of you who feel this issue can be framed with glib and flippant remarks. War is personal and although ideals will cause a nation to go to war, it is the people who fight it who must bear the burdens and pay the costs.
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| Kalanis |
posted 03-24-99 02:05 PM ET
Yes, I know that like 40% of the budget goes to "defense" that's what I'm getting at. There is no justification for the use of force if SOMEONE doesn't gain. Military might is DIRECTLY related to the economy. In the Gulf War, it was Kuwait that gained. Is there anything wrong with this? Not from the narrow standpoint of the UN. But look at it this way. America spent billions, and lost a few hundred (?) people. (If someone knows, tell me what the final death toll was) Also, hundreds of Iraqis died. For what? So that the oil barons in Kuwait could become even richer? WHY??!?! That's my point, we expended a great deal in resources for the purpose of enriching a few famlies in Kuwait. Saddam goes on killing people and commiting God-knows-what crimes. We HAD the chance to stop it all, yet we didn't. As I said, Iraq could have been at peace at last, yet we didn't take the chance. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-24-99 02:07 PM ET
Rong as I said in one of my other posts who gives a **** were I post this topic.We are on the brink of war with a high probability of American casualites. Why are worried about were I post my topics.If you have a view please reply,but stop on the partisanship.I am not attacking SMAC. And may I ask SMAC gamers out there are you busy at the moment playing SMAC or are you watching CNN worring about our troops.
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| micje |
posted 03-24-99 02:17 PM ET
You take this conflict pretty seriously. I don't anyone doing anything except flying over and bombing a couple of tanks. The same thing we did in december to Iraq, remember. Nothing I would call a war. (yet) |
| Silt |
posted 03-24-99 02:18 PM ET
Kalanis: If you think the Gulf War was fought to make a few Kuwait families rich, then you are sadly mistaken. The Gulf War was fought over one thing, OIL. Granted, I think the world can survive without Kuwait's oil supply but what would have happened if Saddam decided he then wanted Saudi Arabia and the rest of the oil rich countries. You think the world would be in good shape if one lunatic controlled a good portion of the world's oil supplies? Oil is one of the, if not the, most important resources on the planet. I can't think of many items that would still be able to be produced without oil. I'm still shaking my head at you thinking that we fought that war to make a few Kuwait families rich. Silt |
| quizara tafwid |
posted 03-24-99 02:48 PM ET
Having been in the U.S. Air Force during Desert Shild/Storm, I can say it was all for money. We were hired by SA and the other oil producing countries to put things back to the status quo. In other words, we were a mercenary army. We actually made a profit on the whole thing (and we got to field test a lot of our hi-tech weapons). Everything in Iraq since then has been Clinton trying to prove he has cajones. Getting involved in Kosovo is a mistake. It is an internal conflict with no impact on the rest of the world. Once it spills across international boundaries, then we *may* have the right to contain it. We do not have the right to take one side over the other in a civil war. |
| micje |
posted 03-24-99 03:02 PM ET
Yeah, sure. What happened in Germany 1933-1939 was an internal conflict. We have no rights to take sides... We have the OBLIGATION to take sides in cases like this. |
| Aeongusha |
posted 03-24-99 03:05 PM ET
I'm not American, I'm European but I will still give my opinion... POST THIS TOPIC SOMEWHERE ELSE, WHOEVER STARTED IT!!!! THIS IS ABOUT ALPHA CENTAURI AND NOT KOSOVO... I hope I'm not repeating what other people said because I didn't bother to read what was said. Please remember there is a forum to talk about things non-related to smac. Otherwise go to cnn.com. |
| Utrecht |
posted 03-24-99 03:11 PM ET
AMEN!!!! Please create this discussion under "non-SMAC" It does not belong here. TIA |
| SailorUranus |
posted 03-24-99 03:25 PM ET
Attn anyone who whines about off-topic posts: Eat me. If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em... and don't bother posting your mindless babble on how it's off-topic blah blah blah ad nauseum. Don't go away mad... just go away! Thank you. ---------- It think we took about 320-340 casualties, including friendly fire. I think the Iraqi casualties were small and stemmed mostly from the air campaigns as most of the ground forces surrendered en masse. ---------- Russia is all bark, no bite now. They're too penniless, too close to anarchy, and too dependent on foreign economic aide to be much of a threat. If they were smart, they wouldn't dare risking losing the latter at the moment. Ironic how Wag The Dog had us at "war" with Albania, and now in reality (Is this reality? Or am I just a brain in a University Base lab?) we're practically allied with them. |
| MOCKBa |
posted 03-24-99 03:30 PM ET
Attn. anyone who whines about whiners that whines about off topic posts: if you can't tell the difference between SMAC and the NATO, then don't bother posting in this forum. Don't go away mad, just go away. -- MOCKBa |
| Oleg Leschoff |
posted 03-24-99 03:33 PM ET
All right, about these numerous explanations on the conflict from many points, some REALLY has some weight. Yes, I agree that in certain cases there are really need in some type of militaristic approaches. BUT I'm not talking about the exact formal reason of offence. This is actually not a big deal -- there always some reason, and if it's not clearly visible, you can just fabricate anything you like. The main problem is that USA or, more general, NATO (hehe, I really don't see any difference -- most countries ready to lick some place and do anything just to enter alliance or make right thing to stay in favor of USA -- UK is a great example) for some reason started to treat itself as the superior nation and thinks that it has right to do anything it likes just saying that it's for peacekeeping purposes (PLEASE explain me WHY). But I don't really know, it's possible you've just forgot of this tiny thingie the UN (United Nations for those didn't listen about it) that IS supposed be that PEACEKEEPING FORCE. I think that USA stopped to pay any attention to UN after they lost their own man as the chairman there. By performing such actions without paying any attention to UN's decisions, NATO becomes THE force that is OPPOSED to any peacekeeping processes in the world, because now the UN actually don't has any influence, thus becoming unable to serve its purpose. And from this point, you see, without UN, can you actually say, what are the proves of the peace? Is there any hope on it? can it exist when there's no real force that can stop crazied militaristic alliance that wishes to have some places where it can test its weapons and where it wants to dig its oil, and feels itself able to do anything it wants? Oh, add those nuke stocks in certain places that surely might be used by some lunatics in the last case, and the greed of NATO, I believe, isn't able to determine that case (heh, you know, they've been stockpiled for some purpose, isn't it?) |
| Phueschen |
posted 03-24-99 04:27 PM ET
check out CNN.com, we have begun bombing. No Nato pilots in danger as we are using USA tomohawks, but the same cant be said for the people on the other end of the missle. Whike this is ok, it wont solve anything. Yogoslavia has a VERY mobile force and cruise missles are next to useless unless the target cant move. As for this being a NATO effort? So far its USA alone, but the next wave will probably be human pilots. Peter |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-24-99 04:40 PM ET
UPDATE..... Brett Sadler a CNN reporter has said that Yugoslav forces has claimed to shot down 1 NATO aircraft over the hills west of Pristina.....The first casuality to this modern day Vietnam.... I have to admit at least Serbia can target better than Iraq.... |
| uncleroggy |
posted 03-24-99 04:46 PM ET
SailorU, I'm not sure whether your remarks were directed at me. But, let me correct you nonetheless. First, dropping a few bombs and mopping up the blood will not be the case with the Serbs. They are dedicated and highly motivated fighters with a long history of proving it to their opponents. In addition, they will be tough to find and destroy in their hilly country and they are able to live off the land. In short, you can't kill em if you can't find em. 2) Iraqi casualties are estimated at 100,000 plus and will never be accurately tabulated because many were blown to bits or entombed in their trenches when they were overrun by armoured combat earthmovers. In addition, the ground war proved quite sharp at times and I suggest you read the books by Generals Franks and Schwartzkopf to confirm this. I can also provide testimonials from friends who took part in those engagements including 73 easting if you require additional confirmation. 3) I would not so easily discount the Russian presence as they still have a tremendous amount of weapons that they can pump into the region. Also, they have sufficient forces and the willingness to use them that could result in World or nuclear war. Remember, the Russians and Serbs have ties that go back a century or more. Finally, your matter of fact approach to 300+ friendly casualties really bothers me. Each of those casualties were someone's father or son, mother or daughter, or sister or brother. would you feel differently if it was your family? I know I do. The bottom line is that the issue in Kosovo will not be decided unless the two warring "factions" agree to stop killing each other and no amount of bombing will accoplish that goal.
|
| Mind |
posted 03-24-99 05:21 PM ET
I find most of the posts to this topic rather intelligent and though many are opposing viewpoints, they are logical and well formulated. As an American I would like to debunk 2 points that I think are worth mentioning. First is the pervasive attitude of disgust or hatred of Americans and things American by foreign peoples. Clearly this is most likely a result of America being the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world at the moment. Long before America, the English were hated, the French, the Romans , the ancient Greeks. All of them had their "day in the sun". Yes the American tourists are abysmal, but you know what? As a New Yorker, you should see some of the Euro tourists. Absolutely horrible, no respect whatsoever for the service class here. No tip either even when informed to do so. Now I find that rather arrogant and boorish. The bottom line is that it goes both ways. The real problem as I see it is the so-called invasion of American "culture" in other countries. Their problem as is ours is that noone votes with their wallets. If that "crap" didnt sell, then I promise you that American CEO's would be long gone. But you know what? It sells and it sells big as it does here unfortunately. Secondly, stop speaking of America as if it is some third rate power. Like it or not, it is the most powerful country economically and militarily. Think of logical choices for a power in that position instead of just saying they should keep their nose out. Yes, Bangladesh should definitely keep its nose out. But America? I dont know the answer really, but some sort of involvement is required definitely. I find it hilarious when other countries do what America does on a smaller scale yet that gets no press. French in Rwanda, duh, English in the Falklands and Russia in Afghanistan. The list is endless. Think logically, not emotionally when coming up with reasonable solutions. As an American I really dont know what we should do over there. The problem is enormously complex and difficult and probably unsolvable. Consider these things when you rush to judge America's interest there. I assure you there isn't an obvious one this time around. Although we can all come up with conspiracies and rating boosters if we want. Let's just support the action by NATO forces for one stupid reason alone. At least they are doing something. Apathy would be the real crime. Lastly, I really don't want to hear the Russian view on any of this. That lame, corrupt, backward country hasn't done one thing to stop this crisis even with their so-called treaty with the Slavs since the 20's. Their leader is a drunk, their country is in shambles, taking billions of dollars from the west. How bout some help here? They have a history of abusing the living hell out of their own people. At least we never killed 20 million of our own black citizens. They have imperialistic tendencies of their own a la Afghanistan, Hungary, Czekoslovakia. Please I can accept criticisms , but not from Russia. Their regimes have been marked by total aggression and violence for hundreds of years. Enough from them. I will however accept it from the Finnish gentleman. And one final thought which is a wish really. I hope that a Republican returns to the White House in 2000. I would just love to see how they solve the Balkan issue, Saddam and all those other thorns. I wonder if people ever consider the astonishing complexity and far reaching ramifications of these issues. The Serbians hold all the cards, not the Americans. They have excellent weaponry, extremely seasoned soldiers who can fight like crazy. We will look bad to most of the world no matter what NATO does. If we lose too many men, then there will be hell to pay over here. No idiot in his right mind would want a piece of that action. As far as I can tell, the only obvious gain besides testing out some weapons is helping out some poor defenseless people. Sounds good to me. |
| GoldDigger |
posted 03-24-99 05:53 PM ET
When the biggest gang of criminals in the country are running the country - 'you get what you paid for'. Roos P., the media, and a bunch of fools put her/him in and supporting their 'Drug-lord & Terrorist' friends is now the price that WE must pay. Billiboy must be in deep emotional melt-down; having to chose between his Marxist Brouthers and his 'Drug-lord & Terrorist' buddies. |
| micje |
posted 03-24-99 06:26 PM ET
I would love to see anyone solve the Balkan issue, but the Republicans... I thought they specialized in doing absolutely nothing. And Mind, how come you think everyone hates Americans? Here in Holland, Americans are the most popular tourists (maybe after Australians and Canadians). It's our close neighbors that we REALLY despise/detest. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-24-99 06:29 PM ET
May I please remind those who back this NATO aggression against Yugoslavia. "That 50 years ago from now, NATO was created primarily for the DEFENSE of Europe.Can someone please tell me when this rule changed????" NATO has some explaining to do.....
|
| spgfcs |
posted 03-24-99 06:37 PM ET
The President is doing this for one reason - and one reason only... His internal polls tell him this is what alot of Americans want and his approval ratings will stay up. Americans love to read about the action in the paper and ever since Reagan every time we have a bombing run the president's ratings go up. We realize there's no danger to us since we might as well be a million miles away. That's why we keep Saddam around, for a quick popularity fix now and again. If Clinton's polls and focus groups indicated his popularity would rise if he screwed the Queen of England he would get on the next plane and try to get it on with her highness. |
| Phueschen |
posted 03-24-99 06:45 PM ET
Undertaker has just posted that the BBC has anounced that one NaTo warplane has not returned. (shot down) Sad. But to be expected. CNN has just reported that the UN is leaning toward russia's POV on the bombings and is disturbed that NATO is not following UN charter. Also Russia has pulled out its NATO agreements as of today. Now a good question is can nato take on Russia, the UN and public opinion about caualties? |
| paraskous |
posted 03-24-99 07:34 PM ET
micje: I really wonder why so many ppl from the Netherlands "detest" their "neighbors". Well I suppose you mean Germans. I can't explain to me those many stupid prejudices and insults I've heard from Dutchmen. And then again I know many dutch people who live in Germany and vice versa. Did Germans do you any harm? The war is over! And don't tell me about injustices committed in the past - I know that and probably take it into account when visiting the Netherlands - We're different now (I hope so). I don't think French ppl consider Germany as enemy any more (as they did a long time). I like your country but it's just stuff like this that really annoys me |
| JT2 |
posted 03-24-99 08:23 PM ET
I am an American, and I probably have the highest regard for other countries in this forum. I can't believe what some of you arrogant little jerks are saying. "Let's go conquer Europe", "They've had several centuries and they're still fighting. Let's just bomb them all." Sad, really. I am a patriot, but this is just insane. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-24-99 09:12 PM ET
The key to this whole conflict is..... MACEDONIA
Macedonia consists in present day with Then a civil war can easily erupt there between Macdeonian Slavs and Ethnic Albanians.Then if that should happen Albania to the west will join the Ethnic Albanians rebels and try to create a Greater Albania. Then Bulgaria to the east will side with the Macedonian Slavs. This then opens the old war between Greece and Bulgaria for Macedonia once again. Then Turkey will open an old war against Greece.And take sides with Bulgarian In the 19th century Greece fought the Turks hard for there independence.And will try to keep it at all cost..... This is a very real scenario ladies and gentleman.I make no jokes to the matter.The Balkans can erupt instantly if Macedonia gets involved. Undertaker |
| Phueschen |
posted 03-24-99 09:34 PM ET
Why wouldnt they get involved? We have set the precident that breaking away to form your own country (no mater how small) is what we support. Now the ethnic cleansing is pure evil but we cant stop that unless we send in ground troops. But hey we will help split up countries! Why wouldnt they want to split up? It's not like we(nato) are going to say that it ok for yugoslavia but not macedonia. Or would we? And what if they just dont care? Peter |
| Jythexinvok |
posted 03-24-99 09:42 PM ET
The problem with a question like this is it's equivlent to asking the average person on the street which is better, Mac/PC/Sparc. Alot of people will have opininos, but when it comes down to it very few are going to have the background knowledge and perspective to understand the full nature of the problem. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and that's what's happening here. Everyone knows bits and pieces, but not enough to truely link theory and practice. I see this all the time around my campus and it truely frightens me sometimes. Just keep this in mind when you get up on your soap box. <wave> |
| Oleg Leschoff |
posted 03-24-99 10:59 PM ET
Well, I'm sorry if I've offended somebody -- I didn't want this anyway. <Mind>: Interesting position. I was always hoping this like position is not very common in the err.. democratic USA. In general, you've made some mistakes in your offence on me. First, I don't see any connection with condition of the country (well, at least current conditions) and it's people's minds. You seem to think another way. I'll remind that I've just expressed my own opinion and noted that official Russia has somewhat similar (note that -- not the same), and this is not means that I am in any other point agree with it, but also it doesn't means somewhat contrary. If we suppose that you just want to shut everything 'from there' up, I think this appears to be another reason for hated Americans, but note that this hate in Russia anyway incomparable less than in many other countries. And I don't know what did propaganda said you, maybe that all russians are jerks and may be ignored, but this would be the direct contra to many democratic principles. But note, if this is what you meant, because of current awful condition of Russia, propaganda issue is much less that in some past, and thus it's possible that opinions here are more correct than you possibly think. So I hope I've misunderstood you. About UN. As I said I may understand and even accept military actions if there are the reasons. But if we get precedent of defeating the legally elected international peacekeeping organization, we just will destabilize the world in general even more. As for this particular case. Yes UN chairman didn't blame this action, but in fact the council is who authorized to make such decisions. Yes, Yugoslavia is not the UN member, but many of its members are affected by this conflict. And, about the Russia's actions on that conflict. I don's saying that it's so good and became very kind, as it still has the interests in the region. And now, when it doesn't have any ready power, the only way for it to gain political score is the supporting of peacekeeping process. And please do not talk about things you do not know exactly about. Of cause any Russia's success in this area likely to be shadowed somehow in USA since it is USA who should look peacekeeping there, not anybody else and especially not Russia. |
| Shining1 |
posted 03-25-99 12:30 AM ET
Well, it's happened, anyway. The Brits, French, Americians, and god help us, even the Germans are invovled. As of the last report I heard, five hours ago, Nato hasn't lost a single jet yet. Thank you America. Thank you NATO. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. |
| Fiannaidh |
posted 03-25-99 12:49 AM ET
At least the fighting needs to be contained. Wheather or not America needs to get involved (more than we already are) depends on how many planet busters the enemies have aimed at us, how many atrocities they have committed, whether or not they have stolen technology from us that could give them superior weaponry, wheather or not they start invading our territory with their colony pods, and start to position their drop troops, conventional missiles, and grav ships near our cities. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-25-99 04:37 AM ET
That is something I wish to discuss Shining1, do we the public really know what is going on over there. NATO continously tell us that no planes were shot down,but Yugoslavs foreces have claimed to shot down 1 NATO aircraft over the hills east of Pristina. We all know especially Americans like myself that 1 NATO casuality can cause nationwide anger by the public. And fault will be clearly place on Clinton's lap.Even when pilot Scott O'Grady was shot down over the skies of Bosnia most Pentagon officals were going to deny it. But couldn't since it was clearly caught on Bosnian TV LIVE.So for now I will not ignore Yugoslav Air Defense. It was even rumored that no shots were fired last night against the NATO planes, if that is true then that means the Serbs are limiting there resources which is a wise idea for what may turn out to be a very long conflict.
Do you really believe them? More damage is done to them if they confirm such causalities,and more pride is pumped into the Serbian people..... P.S. And for those that comment Yugoslav morale, may I remind you that these soldiers have been fighting for 10 generations now. Especially for any ground invasion by NATO. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-25-99 05:17 AM ET
Even 7 years later Pentagon officalls are still denying that our troops were not exposed to nerve gas agents in the Persian Gulf. But clearly all of the troops now with massive side effects to these gas are agreeing that there were.....And have taken the case to Congress... Undertaker |
| Tristan |
posted 03-25-99 06:19 AM ET
Im from Germany - that's for the nationality America as peacekeeper. Im no American, but I think that you took this role and now you should play it some longer till the others get organized too. What about Irak? It was well out of the USA and you took no second thought to interfere! Now, at least help us here in Europe. JT2: Don't understand irony? While it's dark, it's still some sort of humor... Everyone is so sure about Russia being no threat - why? They have a big army and their jets are far closer to the US ones then any other active. I don't know if the bombing helps, but I fear the consequences with other nations, like China. This doesn't help to keep up good connections. For all those who are overly concerned about casualties in US army: I think they are soldiers! In Amerika you have a big standing army of soldiers who wanted to be in some army - they all know with which threats they could be opposed. Don't get me wrong! I would really mourn every loss you could have, but your soldiers are no "better" then any other. You are part of the NATO and wanted this as much as any other member. Any loss is one too much, but you can't let Milosovic do what he does right now. Lets hope that everything is over soon... |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-25-99 10:46 AM ET
My god I just saw on CNN the military assets of Yugoslavia..... 90,000 enlisted men That's an incredible Air Force and shows that this war could go as long as possible....And if Russia holds to it's threat for military intervention to help Yugoslavia. And pardon me for being a little slow on KLA history.But aren't they terrorists... |
| 4Horses |
posted 03-25-99 01:58 PM ET
As a soldier in the US Army today...I have to say that YES we have to do something. It's easy to avoid the situation because it's half way around the world in a place that holds no economic advantages for us. But for the millions of people that are living it.....it's all too real. If we expect NATO to be effective then it must be used correctly. And if it means that I have to potentially sacrifice my life for the women, children, and elderly of another country........so be it! So hop on the bandwagon and support your troops......as of yesterday.....this became your war too. |
| chola3 |
posted 03-25-99 02:19 PM ET
Undertaker: yes, it is a large army that the Serbs have but not really large enough. I think Iraq probably had a larger arsenal when the gulf war started. By the way, I am NOT American or European. As I read the news in my hotmail page, and then came here to check out the forums, I was somewhat happy. Here they go again. I am not thinking of Iraq, Somalia etc here. I am thinking of the American Civil war, the 2 world wars, the Crimea war, Napoleon's wars, the western intervention in Russia around 1919, etc. Will the country that started a world war, and kept Germany from winning the war, actually do something significant now? Is Milosovic and the rest of the Serb Chief of Staff some fools like Saddam (whose only existance is to amuse the US president) or are they real soldiers? I had read of the Serb military put on high alert two days ago. None of those silly propaganda (mother of battles, etc) like Saddam but in a low-key order to ONLY the Serb army. If they were indeed real soldiers, then we could really have a repeat of what is a peculiar tendency of these Caucasians. Some week ago, I saw a movie on Gettysburg. I had also seen "All Quiet On The Western Front". Not the "Light Brigade"; it is too stupid. The tendency to extreme discipline, extreme patriotism and all other good attributes are a peculiarity of the Caucasians when they smell a war in the air. Never mind that the same feelings do not exist when peace comes. It is amusing to note that a Caucasian would talk of a single casualty as too much when at "peace" but would not think of a million dead when at war. There is this honour to defend, whether it is as the "Blue" or "Grey" in Gettysburg, or as a German in the Ardenne Offensive. "Oh God what would happen if I lose?" is the trademark of these people. Yet, they do seem to survive. The southerners didn't disappear. The Germans prospered. Yet, there is this need to defend one's honour. I know I am a bit rambling. who cares? I hope Milosovic would make me watch history as it unfolds/repeats. I hope the Serbs would shoot down a dozen planes. Then, instead of blaming Bill Clinton as many think, the USA would rise up to defend its honour. Then, like in 1914, Russia would try to act as though it is mobilising. Then hopefully somebody do (or just say) something to make the Russians "defend their honour". Now I know I am wishing for things that borders on madness. I can't even think properly. It is this feeling that there is a chance to watch something historically significant finally happen in my lifetime. ********* The problem is, there are always meddlers. Austrian Empire, Germany, Russia, Turk Army, English, French. Always, they said the situation was not the same as the previous time. Why, just in the 20s everybody found THE solution, as Yugoslavia. Once again, some people think the situation is different and they could have a FINAL solution. If Hitler, who tried some FINAL solutions to a few problems, had failed miserably to solve this problem, I doubt others could. Anyway, everybody has a right to try for a solution as long as a problem exists. As for me, LET THEM FIGHT IN PEACE. If all of you (Europe and US) kept your bloody mouth shut, Bosnia wouldn't have broken away in the first place. If those Teutonics had not encouraged the Croats and were willing to supply them from the ex-East German arsenals, Croatia wouldn't have broken away. The Europeans are SO clever. They get what they want and let the stupid Americans take the problems home. Is Milosovic a Saddam or is the fun just beginning? I do hope everyone get a chance at defending their honour in another massive European Civil War. TOO HAPPY TODAY!! |
| chola3 |
posted 03-25-99 02:51 PM ET
Undertaker: OOPs! Forgot to finish my sentence. What really matters is not the 7000 SAMs but the determination behind those artillery and panzerfausts. Remember that the Serbs had also been a victim to many atrocities but often held on with determination. (120,000 against the 3rd Reich's 500,000) ******** I apologise if what I said here DID NOT hurt any europeans/american. TOO HAPPY TODAY!! |
| ChairmanLee |
posted 03-25-99 03:32 PM ET
As an American I am alarmed by what is going on over there. However I have a big problem with it. Why now? This have been going on for a long time. The same thing is going in other parts of the world, like africa. But the president desides to do something now, Why? It's funny just as information (hard evidence) about his dealings with China have come out he wants to do something. He has also be good about destroying our military, maybe this is his final answer in taking them down to nothing! It's really sad when you find out that the men and women serving in our armed forces need food stamps just to get by. I am ashamed by it all.
|
| Chris Pine FIRAXIS |
posted 03-25-99 03:54 PM ET
There is a forum called "Not SMAC-Related". This forum is really about the Game (that game being SMAC). While I'm not the first to say so, this really belongs in the non smac related forum. Please be a *little* more discriminating when deciding which forum to post to. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-25-99 04:48 PM ET
Glad to see you here Chris, Inever attracted part of the Firaxis team before. I understand your reply so can you then closed this thread, we can continue discussing this matter in the NON-SMAC. P.S. After this post I ask for no one to post anymore replies on this topic.We can continue in the NON-SMAC forum... |
| Kalanis |
posted 03-25-99 08:17 PM ET
Here's my problem with what's happening in Kosovo: Clinton says that this military action is for the purpose of "saving lives." COME ON HERE PEOPLE! If we REALLY wanted to save lives, we would dump all the billions we spend on defense into medical research. We would build hospitals all over the world and staff them with well trained doctors. We would NOT intervene in someone's crazy civil war. Are the people in Kosovo more deserving of life then the millions starving in Africa and Asia? These people have been killing each other for centuries, does NATO think that it can slap Milosevic on the wrist like a Kindergardener and he'll stop?! Of course not. As far as I can tell, this is just an excuse for NATO to throw it's weight around. Especially into wars it has NO BUISINESS being involved in. If we REALLY wanted to help, there are millions we could save with no risk to the men flying missions tonight. Just a thought... Also, I understand the the Gulf War was fought over oil, but the end result was the stabilization of Kuwait oil on the market. Heck, with US carriers sitting outside what do they need to worry about? It's like the Believers protecting the Morgans just so they could get Morgan goods cheaper... |
| JT2 |
posted 03-25-99 08:38 PM ET
(dripping with sarcasm) Could it be that NATO doesn't intervene in Africa and Asia because it is a NORTH ATLANTIC Alliance?! (sarcasm off) |
| Serenity |
posted 03-26-99 08:29 AM ET
"And pardon me for being a little slow on KLA history.But aren't they terrorists... So has US policy turned a full 360 degrees, and changed to defend terrorists.Who also has ideas of spreading this conflict to Macdeonia." That depends on your point of view. To Serbs, they are terrorists. But do you think that the people who fought against the british when USA got it's independence, are terrorists? Now-a-days, you call 'em patrioits, founders of the nation... But back then british called them terrorists, criminals etc... What is the official definion of terrorist?? 90% of people in Kosovo are albanians. Now Serbians have decided, that they must get rid of 'em... Is it fair that 90% of the people has to live under brutal tyranny of the 10%?? To the 90% in Kosovo, members of the KLA are patriots... To the rest of the world (minus Russia) Serbs are terrorists... Fact is that Serbs are again conducting genocide against other people... Earlier they were muslims... Now they are albanians... Hell, that's just like in nazi-germany!!! Nazis killed jews, gypsies and other "lower" races... Serbs kills muslims, albanians, croats... Serbs even had concentration camps (do you still remember the news from Bosnia??)!! |
| Kalanis |
posted 03-26-99 08:39 AM ET
This might be just a rumor, but wheren't a bunce of American cars firebombed in Russia last night? I think this thing has the potential to blow up BIG. |
| Kalanis |
posted 03-26-99 08:53 AM ET
Sorry, it wasn't Russia, this is directly from CNN: "Hundreds of demonstrators sympathetic to Yugoslavia damaged cars, and others threw firebombs at the U.S. Embassy in Skopje on Thursday, hours after the prime minister expressed concern over rising anti-NATO sentiment in Macedonia" The article comes with pictures of burning cars, etc. The fact is, this wouldn't bother me If I could feel good about what we were doing in Kosovo. I agreed with the Gulf War simply because it was protecting American Oil interests. (We didn't want to pay Iraq a higher price on the barrel, and we WOULD have, because they would have gained a ridiculous market share) We can only hope that some people in power make wise decisions... |
| Oleg Leschoff |
posted 03-26-99 09:38 AM ET
4horses: Hey! I salute! Go and do it! Save those children and womens, do it as early as possible, while they're still alive! Note that you may come too late... P.S. As I've just heared on TV, in general from every 10 people killed as the result of bombings nearly 1 was military man, others are all civil. P.P.S. everybody, I really sorry I post here, just that post isn't exists in non-smac forum |
| cyb78 |
posted 03-26-99 10:25 AM ET
Personally, I think it�s wrong that NATO attacked from the beginning. Second - nobody asked if the USA could "help out". As usually they invited themselves. So don�t you keep whining about that USA beeing the "world police". If you don�t want to get involved - don�t. I think Sweden (where I come from) could do more diplomatic statements (but our goverment don�t want to step at anyone�s toes, sad isn�t it?) and USA could be a bit more diplomatic. It is a VERY complex situation down there. I have been checking out the CNN and the information there is very one-sided. Just news aboutcoming attacks and so on. But there is a lot of information that doesn�t get out. Finally, you couldn�t even say that NATO is having this conflict. It is "big brother - USA" and behind them NATO. I like americans, find USA a great country except for the whining about beeing a world police. Again, if it�s so wrong to interfere - then stop. Europe also does NOT function as USA. Europe is different countries. NOT a "USA - states - like - club". Therefor every country acts as they find suitable for the situation. We don�t think that running in with our weapons high can accomplish anything in the long run. Now take this discussion to the right forum and the we can countinue there. This is a place for gamers who likes to relax from the real world, not beeing reminded about it. -=A=- |
| lucifer |
posted 03-26-99 10:28 AM ET
What will this accomplish? It might get Milosovic to agree to peace, but if Russia enters and other Balkan states get involved? You have got one huge a** war which will have A LOT more casualties than Kosovo's civil war ever would've had without our interference. I think the U.S. should stop trying to be the damn world police and recognize the possible consequences because if they don't: one of these times it's going to come back and bit them on the a**. I gotta go, I'll finish explaining my views on Monday (I use the internet when I'm at school and second hour is about to end right now). P.S. All you wimps that don't think this should be in the games forum, shutup and stop whining. Although it should be under non-smac related, it's not. So if you don't like it: who said you had to read it? |
| cyb78 |
posted 03-26-99 10:32 AM ET
One more thing - how sadly it may seem. Given the current situation in USA, with some militiaproblems, crime rate and the increasingly ghetto�s. I�ll give you about 100 years of decay, then it�s back to the caves. No more SMAC, because nobody would know how to operate a computer. Dammit, hope that never happens. Some of the best I�ve played SMAC against are americans. Don�t be selfish - think of me and get your act together. |
| cyb78 |
posted 03-26-99 10:37 AM ET
Whimpy??? Please... Put this into the right forum and I�ll tag along. The more people in the debate the better. Who would think: "Hmmm, I think I�ll go to the SMAC-forum and talk politics." Hmm, let me guess...I�m whining? :-) Nice weekend to all of u |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-26-99 01:36 PM ET
UPDATE....... Yugoslavs on the offensive
Undertaker |
| TheRob |
posted 03-26-99 02:03 PM ET
The answer to this is so amazingly straightforward, that our American politicians and the media have completely missed it. Simply put, tech growth has brought about an era of personal "Mutually Assured Destruction" in the form of bioweapons. A single POed individual can now build and deploy a weapon which would wipe out a large portion of the population of Earth. Hence, we really don't have much choice but to outlaw war, and create a national equivalent of the US constitution. In particular, that within certain violent limits, each nation has the right to self determination. The two biggest obstacles to this are the US (as in, United States of America, the place where I live) because our politicians wish to maintain our "Top Dog" position; the UN Security Counsel, because these "inalienable rights of nations" need to be something the UN can enforce w/o someone with a possibly non-peacefull agenda vetoing your every move; and China's present plan to absorb Taiwan, whether they want to or not. Have a nice day? |
| Jsone |
posted 03-26-99 05:10 PM ET
I don't understand what the hell has this to do with the SMAC forum.Why didn't you post it somewhere else?Anyway ,I think that the americans haven't anything to do in Kosovo.(I'm not American) |
| Jsone |
posted 03-26-99 05:11 PM ET
I don't understand what the hell has this to do with the SMAC forum.Why didn't you post it somewhere else?Anyway ,I think that the americans haven't anything to do in Kosovo.(I'm not American) |
| JT2 |
posted 03-26-99 10:25 PM ET
Yeah. I think this "world police" thing has gone a bit too far. To put it in police terms, it's like a father grounds a son after a large argument (civil war), and then police come in and start beating the father. It would be better if the police never came at all. I am an American, very patriotic at that, but this is going too far. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-27-99 07:02 AM ET
This whole thing is turning into a comedy now.NATO is calling Milosevic a "war criminal".And yet they still want him to come to the peace table and negotiate. Is it only me but does that sound kind of weird to you. Clinton during a speech compared Milosevic to Hitler.That's one the biggest exaggeration Clinton has ever made during this whole conflict. So please President Clinton don't hype up this minor dictator just to get international support.Because history is clearly against you on that comparison. |
| chola3 |
posted 03-27-99 07:50 AM ET
err.. Undertaker: I suppose think anyone other than Jews are subhuman. Germans also killed Polish, Russian and Serb Civilians in liberal numbers. That 6,000,000 is just a subset. I hope you apologise sincerely if you do not think of Slavs and Poles as subhumans. (I am sure it is an innocent mistake on your part. All the same, I am sure there are some Slavs reading this thread and lets not hurt their feelings.) |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-27-99 10:38 AM ET
Maybe you didn't understand my reply chola3.I said only that the impression Clinton is making by calling Milosevic -Hitler is probably the biggest exaggeration I have ever heard. Hitler was a devil in military clothing.He was able by his voice to hpyonthise 95% of the German people to follow his cause right down to the very end. Milosevic just doesn't have that kind of oratory skills. The Serbs once did follow Milosevic's view of Yugoslavia,he wouldn't have been elected if they didn't. If he should give up Kosovo as NATO is asking he is in a way committing "VOLUNTARY SUICIDE". With these NATO airstrikes the Serbian people have no option but to follow him to the end.In a way NATO strengthen Milosevic's favorablitity. I am just pointing out the fact that the comparison is just too far fetch by Clinton.He should make this want-to-be dictator more powerful than what he is. If you followed the history of Hitler you would figure out that Milosevic is like an ant compared to the anti-christ Adolf Hitler....
|
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-27-99 10:41 AM ET
Made a mistake... It's Clinton SHOULDN'T make this want-to-be dictator more powerful than he is..... |
| chola3 |
posted 03-27-99 01:45 PM ET
Undertaker: Another Oops! I think there had been a friendly fire here. What I said is, when you put 6,000,000, it must have refered only to the no. of Jews killed. As we know, the no. of civilians directly and indirectly killed were much larger. Actually I didn't refer to the Albanians by "Slav". I was thinking of the 20 million dead Russians, Ukrainians, etc. As I said, I assume it was innocent mistake on your part. In any case, what you had written of the Serb history is true. I don't need to "agree" but rather just admit. (Unfortunately others will only agree if the facts suit them; including my fellow SMACplayers) I don't care for ethnic Albanians. If you refer to my post in Non-Smac\Kosovo thread, I am positively pro-Serb in this issue; whether acceptable to you or not. Believe me everybody. There are more in this world who support the Serbs in this issue than those who support these NATO air strikes. They keep quiet because America has a bigger gun. Americans would keep low too if someone from Chiron came with a spaceship the saiz of virginia. The people I am talking about are not those who like to shout anti-US slogans as a hobby. Clinton was half-funny in his message to the Yugoslavs. Israel claimed Jerusalem not because they were the majority there but because it is their holy land. There was a time when the Serbs kingdom was based in Kosovo. The muslims raped, murdered and replaced them with someone of the same religion. How many times the Serbs have to suffer atrocity? The last happened in WW2, when the Bosnians joined with the Germans. Whether the Serbs will fight, whether they will continue burning villages, is not based on Milosovic but by their sense of history and more importantly the amount of hatred that lies deep within a Serb soldier's grandmother and grandfather, who can recall what happened some 50 years ago. How many of you can control an emotion that is set on fire by your grandparents? In this mess, America tries to play god. Who knows, because of this involvement peace may prevail: |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-27-99 03:29 PM ET
Everything you said before sounds absolutely satisfying by me.Your comment on the situation also sounds very bi-partisan,which is very good and healthy for a democracy. I haven't seen much bi-partisanship concerning this conflict within this forum. Everyone blames Milosevic but has yet talked about the other side of the coin which are the KLA would have be committing war crimes themselves. I only disagree with one of your points were you mention "a visionary president." Let's not forget Clinton was one of many critics who didn't support President Johnson in 1966 when the Vietcong was committing 20x times worst the atrocites against American & French soldiers. He seems to be very quick to help the ethnic Albanians,but was slow 33 years ago to support helping his fellow Americans in Vietnam.
|
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-27-99 06:45 PM ET
My god the Yugoslavs has shot down a F-117 Nighthawk.The farmers that reported the crash has sent the two pilots one to be German to the Serbian authorities. What is NATO's next move.And what will be the conquences to the Slavs. Please post your replies about this in the Non-Smac forum. Undertaker |
| Fresko |
posted 03-27-99 09:06 PM ET
I�m from Germany and i became afraid of all your comments to this topic!! First: All you little Col.Santiagos/Lals/Miriams/Dierdes.. should stay at your PC and NEVER stop to play SMAC. |
| chola3 |
posted 03-27-99 09:55 PM ET
Undertaker: the part about peace prevailing in balkans is meant as sarcasm. BTW, if you had read my opinions in \non-SMAC\Kosovo, you would have realised I am not American or European. I hope you don't mind. Anyway lets continue in Non-Smac since the forum and even your topic ("If your American..) is not really proper for me to post. |
| UndertakerAPB |
posted 03-27-99 11:14 PM ET
I'm sorry chola3 I should have never posted "If your American-". I totally forgot that this is a conflict of 19 nations against 1. So if your European,Asian, Pakistani, or even Zulu.I and many other citizens of the world would love to hear from you....
P.S. Clinton's approval rating has drop 16 points since the impeachment trial.Sort of reminds you what happened to Bush after the Persian Gulf War. |
| Phueschen |
posted 03-29-99 10:44 AM ET
Well, the best and the brightest was shot down last weekend.  NATO wont say what brought it down for good reasons. 1. if it was shot down they dont want the serbs to know they can bring down our jets. 2. It doesnt look good if the most expensive fighter in the world can be knocked out by some stupid old anti-air guns.  Now we are getting reports that NATO will be "stepin it up" as the Kosovo area is getting worse. After five days of bombing it nothing is working. You think they'd see that but this thing is now a matter of honor. Remember though that the purpose was (originaly) to limit the serbs abilities, now British PM (and our good old USA prez)has said that the new goal is to stop the ethnic cleansing. How are we going to do this? One guess and it uses a lot of boots. |
| AmericanTJL |
posted 04-03-99 11:33 PM ET
First of all what we are doing in Kosovo is wrong! Ehtnic Albanians are just at much at fault as Serbs. I say we back out, and while we are at it back out of Haiti,Bosnia,Korea and all the other places.We Americans need to look to more golbal problems like ex. Russias economic collapse,Chinas growing military(they are building up while the US wastes resources,Global warming,FOOD SHORTAGE,HOMELESSNESS,OVER POPULATION,and countless others. Come on people, THINK ABOUT IT. Dont be DUMB.Even If we step in They will still fight, LEAVE THEM ALONE! AND FOR ALLL YOU EUROPEANS AND OTHER NATIONALITES CRITIZING AMERICA. If it wasnt for us and tHE russians,Have of the world would be speaking GERMAN,jAPANESE,AND ITALIAN. we contribute to countries technology,economy,DEFENCE,and support. AND YIN26,good post, i support you,you think right. Europe is in too much CHAOS.but we shouldnt be the worlds police. GOD bless AMERICA and DEMOCRACY\Republician thinking policies. And God Please Help The World we really need it. America and the world, we are not perfect. Peace out, P.S.excuse my bad typing. |
| TheHelperMonkey |
posted 04-04-99 10:50 AM ET
How could it be the Albanians fualt?! Are you cray? Are the Albanians also sluaghtering innocent civialians? No. That is why we are involved: To stop the sluaghtering innocent civialians. Think with your head next time you post. |
| Elemental007 |
posted 04-04-99 01:27 PM ET
Why is it our business, you ask? OK: let me put it to you this way. Turkey and Greece are NATO allies. They are our allies. But they are not allies of each other. Refugees are fleeing to both countries. Neither country wants them. They try and turn them away from their country into the other country. Now although this isn't as big of deal as the number of refugees in Macedonia, more and more are going to these countries because Mace/Alb can't handle them. Each of these countries is substancially more powerful than Mace/Alb/Yugoslavia. So when they piss each other off when handling the refugees, they don't win any points with each other. Greece and Turkey already are in a cold war and this isn't helping if. If the refugee exodus continues unchecked these two countries may end up getting into a real war. And thats bad folks. |
| Elemental007 |
posted 04-04-99 01:27 PM ET
Why is it our business, you ask? OK: let me put it to you this way. Turkey and Greece are NATO allies. They are our allies. But they are not allies of each other. Refugees are fleeing to both countries. Neither country wants them. They try and turn them away from their country into the other country. Now although this isn't as big of deal as the number of refugees in Macedonia, more and more are going to these countries because Mace/Alb can't handle them. Each of these countries is substancially more powerful than Mace/Alb/Yugoslavia. So when they piss each other off when handling the refugees, they don't win any points with each other. Greece and Turkey already are in a cold war and this isn't helping if. If the refugee exodus continues unchecked these two countries may end up getting into a real war. And thats bad folks. |
| dylanf |
posted 04-06-99 08:00 PM ET
cunts the lot of you. The sadder your country becomes the more pompous u get. CUNTS the lot of you. |
| Krushala |
posted 09-06-99 08:30 PM ET
kind of late for this poll, but yes |
| evil_conquerer |
posted 09-09-99 06:33 PM ET
Please... if you want to bumb up threads, bump up some that have actual relevance, ok? |
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