spy on soc. eng.?? - Alpha Centauri Forums

  Alpha Centauri Forums
  The Game
  spy on soc. eng.??

profile | register | prefs | faq | search

Author Topic:   spy on soc. eng.??

EnBee posted 03-19-99 10:16 PM ET
Is it just that I haven't looked hard enough? Is there a way you can see an opponent's social eng. choices after you infiltrate datalinks? I mean, it makes a difference when planning strategy to know opponent's strengths and exploit weaknesses. Also, if you can click on their cities, you should be able to know what kind of gov. they're using.
EnBee posted 03-21-99 12:21 AM ET
Does no one know or does no one care?
Catalyst001 posted 03-21-99 02:50 AM ET
This would be a very good option, but I doubt people would find the time to use it. I'd go for it, especially when playing an E-Mail game, I'd have the time to check to see what was going on with my enemies then I could make the obvious choice (If they pick Knowledge, use Probe Teams) and what-not.
I'm not sure if it actually IS in there but if it is, then it'd really rock,
Catalyst001
University Kinda-Guy
ICQ#: 15445226
EnBee posted 03-21-99 03:05 AM ET
Good option? I think it SHOULD be part of the game. I mean the cool thing with the factions is that they have differnet strengths to beware of, and different weaknesses to exploit. I mean a Believer with no special social eng. is one thing, but one with research,democratic, green is another thing!
Seems obvious to include it. Take the analogy: if we can get spies to find out what kind of weaponry Saddam's making over in Iraq, we can certainly find out what kind of government Iraq has! ie) we get a flood of info from infiltrating their datalinks (which I must admit I spend a lot of the game looking through), then we should certainly be able to find out if they are a bunch of psycho fundamentalists or a bunch of tree-hugging psychos. We don't even need spies for that; we have the freaking media!
Thue posted 03-21-99 06:41 AM ET
I have been looking real hard too, but I can't seem to find the info.
I think it is absolutly critical to know other faction's soc eng choices!
EnBee posted 03-21-99 08:09 AM ET
Thanx.
I thought it was just that I was too stupid to find it. I thought it was an obvious thing to put in.
jig posted 03-22-99 02:41 AM ET
It should be in the game but it should also be VERY hard to get a probe team to infiltrate the social engineering tables.
Shining1 posted 03-22-99 02:53 AM ET
I'm not sure, as I haven't yet found it either. Not that I've really looked. Besides, each faction has one choice that they will always make, if available, so that should give some clue to their abilities.
But it might be under the faction description, in the comlink box?
EnBee posted 03-22-99 03:00 AM ET
To take the extreme, my point is that to find out if a faction is a fundamentalist govt. or a democracy, you should NOT need a spy at all. If infiltration tells you their annual budget, you should be able to know what their average joe goes through (ie. their socail engineering choices) without having to resort to spies even. It makes the game more realistic. I mean, with such a wealth of infiltration data, it doesn't make sense to have to guess at something so fundamental as their government and economy style.
As it is, I think it should definitely be part of infiltration data. After all, the cool part of the game (and having factions) is that you get to take advantage of weaknesses and work around strengths. The game is about strategy, and strategy is knowing if the Spartans attacking you are power/fundamentalist or democracy/free market, and using that information to your advantage (as Sun Tsu might say, and perhaps Machiavelli).
Shining1 posted 03-22-99 03:09 AM ET
And Santiago. And General Tacticus, though if you aren't a Terry Prachett fan you won't get that.
It definitely has some concrete miltary applications. For instance, if your main rival is using Free Market, you can breed mindworms and locusts, thus taking advantage of his -3 planet (i.e -30% to Psi combat).
Conversly, you know to keep well away from demon boils owned by Green, Eudomic (sic) Gaians. Lethal bastards.
jig posted 03-22-99 03:40 AM ET
Actually, when you think about it, the computer always knows your socil engineering and reacts to it! How can we do that to the computer if we don't know what their social ideas are??
Especially in multiplayer, this would be vital for people that want to role play. (eg. You're Morgan and you decalre war on the UoP because your found out they're using a Planned economy.)
MoSe posted 03-22-99 03:59 AM ET
The one thing that bothers me, is that FirAxis claimed they'd put up a smart AI that didn't need to cheat to challenge human players. I took that as for I could do anything the AI can do.
Now, I can ask for credits, but I have to give something back immediatly, while I'd liked a small diluted annual payment too (or did I miss it?).
The unlimited AI's PB range is clearly a bug, but the former and the topic issue are two things that aren't symmetrical in the game design, and that's not as fair as they claimed to be.
It sholud have been even included as a diplo option: 'I request that you change that SE setting that's so outrageous', some kind of negotiations following.
Over time I'll gather such ideas and put up a topic on discrepancies between AI and humans gameplay options.
'I salute you!' ' Aha, 'twas good!'
(miss that ole CivII fun)
MariOne
Hey, while I was indulging in philosopy, jig stiked his in between.
tOFfGI posted 03-22-99 07:26 AM ET
I noticed this as well. Is the AI actually affected by social engineering, and use it tactically, or do they just chose the ones that maximise their social priority, and screw the rest?
Kedryn posted 03-22-99 12:52 PM ET
They use social engineering somewhat strategically. Morgan (AI) uses Democracy/Free Market/Wealth when it is available, but only during peacetime. When someone decides to stomp on him, he immediately switches to Fundamentalist/Power. You can see this by enabling cheats and hitting 'e'. (Yes, I cheat so I can see my competitor's SE values).
EnBee posted 03-22-99 02:17 PM ET
How do you enable cheats? (I haven't found that part in the manual yet).
Grendel posted 03-22-99 02:21 PM ET
I don't have the game in front of me right now, but doesn't Social Engineering stuff appear if you right-click on a faction in the "commlink" menu?
Personally, the more I explore this game, the more features I find. (Control-right clicking on the build list will let you define and store build-lists you can the apply at every new base, for example.)
Boy, could this game benefit from a better manual.
Ronbo posted 03-22-99 07:16 PM ET
This is the number one shortcoming of the game that I would like to see addressed in the next "enhancement" of the game. It REALLY makes a difference in how other factions should be dealt with, and since they know the human player's social engineering choices and react accordingly, it would be nice to reciprocate. Firaxis, are you listening? Is this an easy fix, or a major recoding hassle?
EnBee posted 03-24-99 12:01 AM ET
Hey Kedryn, I checked out your suggestion. Right-clicking on the faction name in the commlink menu just gives you the faction profile. There is NOTHING on social engineering here. They only give one favourite agenda and one averion, but we know that the AI can change that to suit its needs (ref. Grendel).
EnBee posted 03-24-99 12:01 AM ET
Hey Kedryn, I checked out your suggestion. Right-clicking on the faction name in the commlink menu just gives you the faction profile. There is NOTHING on social engineering here. They only give one favourite agenda and one averion, but we know that the AI can change that to suit its needs (ref. Grendel).
EnBee posted 03-24-99 12:03 AM ET
2 points:
1) sorry for the double post
2) I said Kedryn when I meant Grendel and vice versa. Sorry
Shining1 posted 03-24-99 12:49 AM ET
Good points all round. So far:
* You can't explicitly view the A.I's social engineering choices
* They can view yours, Iff it's a negative they don't like. (But I doubt they plan stragtegys to exploit your weaknesses like a human player would).
This definitely should be an entry in the datalinks somewhere.
EnBee posted 03-24-99 01:03 AM ET
Don't forget implications for MP. Will make big diff. to how you plan MP strategy.
MoSe posted 03-24-99 07:59 AM ET
please Shining1 clarify:
Iff
was a typo
or
did you mean to use the logical operator IFF
aka 'If and only if'?
To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


Hop to:

Contact Us | Alpha Centauri Home

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.18
© Madrona Park, Inc., 1998.

Author	Topic: spy on soc. eng.??
EnBee	posted 03-19-99 10:16 PM ET Is it just that I haven't looked hard enough? Is there a way you can see an opponent's social eng. choices after you infiltrate datalinks? I mean, it makes a difference when planning strategy to know opponent's strengths and exploit weaknesses. Also, if you can click on their cities, you should be able to know what kind of gov. they're using.
EnBee	posted 03-21-99 12:21 AM ET Does no one know or does no one care?
Catalyst001	posted 03-21-99 02:50 AM ET This would be a very good option, but I doubt people would find the time to use it. I'd go for it, especially when playing an E-Mail game, I'd have the time to check to see what was going on with my enemies then I could make the obvious choice (If they pick Knowledge, use Probe Teams) and what-not. I'm not sure if it actually IS in there but if it is, then it'd really rock, Catalyst001 University Kinda-Guy ICQ#: 15445226
EnBee	posted 03-21-99 03:05 AM ET Good option? I think it SHOULD be part of the game. I mean the cool thing with the factions is that they have differnet strengths to beware of, and different weaknesses to exploit. I mean a Believer with no special social eng. is one thing, but one with research,democratic, green is another thing! Seems obvious to include it. Take the analogy: if we can get spies to find out what kind of weaponry Saddam's making over in Iraq, we can certainly find out what kind of government Iraq has! ie) we get a flood of info from infiltrating their datalinks (which I must admit I spend a lot of the game looking through), then we should certainly be able to find out if they are a bunch of psycho fundamentalists or a bunch of tree-hugging psychos. We don't even need spies for that; we have the freaking media!
Thue	posted 03-21-99 06:41 AM ET I have been looking real hard too, but I can't seem to find the info. I think it is absolutly critical to know other faction's soc eng choices!
EnBee	posted 03-21-99 08:09 AM ET Thanx. I thought it was just that I was too stupid to find it. I thought it was an obvious thing to put in.
jig	posted 03-22-99 02:41 AM ET It should be in the game but it should also be VERY hard to get a probe team to infiltrate the social engineering tables.
Shining1	posted 03-22-99 02:53 AM ET I'm not sure, as I haven't yet found it either. Not that I've really looked. Besides, each faction has one choice that they will always make, if available, so that should give some clue to their abilities. But it might be under the faction description, in the comlink box?
EnBee	posted 03-22-99 03:00 AM ET To take the extreme, my point is that to find out if a faction is a fundamentalist govt. or a democracy, you should NOT need a spy at all. If infiltration tells you their annual budget, you should be able to know what their average joe goes through (ie. their socail engineering choices) without having to resort to spies even. It makes the game more realistic. I mean, with such a wealth of infiltration data, it doesn't make sense to have to guess at something so fundamental as their government and economy style. As it is, I think it should definitely be part of infiltration data. After all, the cool part of the game (and having factions) is that you get to take advantage of weaknesses and work around strengths. The game is about strategy, and strategy is knowing if the Spartans attacking you are power/fundamentalist or democracy/free market, and using that information to your advantage (as Sun Tsu might say, and perhaps Machiavelli).
Shining1	posted 03-22-99 03:09 AM ET And Santiago. And General Tacticus, though if you aren't a Terry Prachett fan you won't get that. It definitely has some concrete miltary applications. For instance, if your main rival is using Free Market, you can breed mindworms and locusts, thus taking advantage of his -3 planet (i.e -30% to Psi combat). Conversly, you know to keep well away from demon boils owned by Green, Eudomic (sic) Gaians. Lethal bastards.
jig	posted 03-22-99 03:40 AM ET Actually, when you think about it, the computer always knows your socil engineering and reacts to it! How can we do that to the computer if we don't know what their social ideas are?? Especially in multiplayer, this would be vital for people that want to role play. (eg. You're Morgan and you decalre war on the UoP because your found out they're using a Planned economy.)
MoSe	posted 03-22-99 03:59 AM ET The one thing that bothers me, is that FirAxis claimed they'd put up a smart AI that didn't need to cheat to challenge human players. I took that as for I could do anything the AI can do. Now, I can ask for credits, but I have to give something back immediatly, while I'd liked a small diluted annual payment too (or did I miss it?). The unlimited AI's PB range is clearly a bug, but the former and the topic issue are two things that aren't symmetrical in the game design, and that's not as fair as they claimed to be. It sholud have been even included as a diplo option: 'I request that you change that SE setting that's so outrageous', some kind of negotiations following. Over time I'll gather such ideas and put up a topic on discrepancies between AI and humans gameplay options. 'I salute you!' ' Aha, 'twas good!' (miss that ole CivII fun) MariOne Hey, while I was indulging in philosopy, jig stiked his in between.
tOFfGI	posted 03-22-99 07:26 AM ET I noticed this as well. Is the AI actually affected by social engineering, and use it tactically, or do they just chose the ones that maximise their social priority, and screw the rest?
Kedryn	posted 03-22-99 12:52 PM ET They use social engineering somewhat strategically. Morgan (AI) uses Democracy/Free Market/Wealth when it is available, but only during peacetime. When someone decides to stomp on him, he immediately switches to Fundamentalist/Power. You can see this by enabling cheats and hitting 'e'. (Yes, I cheat so I can see my competitor's SE values).
EnBee	posted 03-22-99 02:17 PM ET How do you enable cheats? (I haven't found that part in the manual yet).
Grendel	posted 03-22-99 02:21 PM ET I don't have the game in front of me right now, but doesn't Social Engineering stuff appear if you right-click on a faction in the "commlink" menu? Personally, the more I explore this game, the more features I find. (Control-right clicking on the build list will let you define and store build-lists you can the apply at every new base, for example.) Boy, could this game benefit from a better manual.
Ronbo	posted 03-22-99 07:16 PM ET This is the number one shortcoming of the game that I would like to see addressed in the next "enhancement" of the game. It REALLY makes a difference in how other factions should be dealt with, and since they know the human player's social engineering choices and react accordingly, it would be nice to reciprocate. Firaxis, are you listening? Is this an easy fix, or a major recoding hassle?
EnBee	posted 03-24-99 12:01 AM ET Hey Kedryn, I checked out your suggestion. Right-clicking on the faction name in the commlink menu just gives you the faction profile. There is NOTHING on social engineering here. They only give one favourite agenda and one averion, but we know that the AI can change that to suit its needs (ref. Grendel).
EnBee	posted 03-24-99 12:01 AM ET Hey Kedryn, I checked out your suggestion. Right-clicking on the faction name in the commlink menu just gives you the faction profile. There is NOTHING on social engineering here. They only give one favourite agenda and one averion, but we know that the AI can change that to suit its needs (ref. Grendel).
EnBee	posted 03-24-99 12:03 AM ET 2 points: 1) sorry for the double post 2) I said Kedryn when I meant Grendel and vice versa. Sorry
Shining1	posted 03-24-99 12:49 AM ET Good points all round. So far: * You can't explicitly view the A.I's social engineering choices * They can view yours, Iff it's a negative they don't like. (But I doubt they plan stragtegys to exploit your weaknesses like a human player would). This definitely should be an entry in the datalinks somewhere.
EnBee	posted 03-24-99 01:03 AM ET Don't forget implications for MP. Will make big diff. to how you plan MP strategy.
MoSe	posted 03-24-99 07:59 AM ET please Shining1 clarify: Iff was a typo or did you mean to use the logical operator IFF aka 'If and only if'?