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Author Topic:   An Olive Branch

Brother Greg posted 03-16-99 05:23 PM ET
Well, the title speaks for itself really.
I think that BOTH sides in this little tete-a-tete (sp?) have been getting a little carried away recently, and I for one would like to put an end to this pointless bickering. Blame is pointless, as regardless of who started what, both sides kept it up, and neither side can really call itself blameless in this matter.
Yes, some people have made attacks on SMAC. Some of them justified, some not so justified. Do they have the right to do so? I believe they do. And if they bash the game for a reason that we may consider stupid, does that then mean that everyone considers the opinion stupid? I think not. Even someone who says that SMAC sucks because it's graphics are poor has a point. They're just expressing their opinion after all, and they might expect gourard shaded bump mapped voxel lined ocean motion technology in all of their games.
To you, me and a lot of other people, a stupid comment. To that person, a criticism of a game. Can we really blame them for that opinion? I think not. Can we post our counter opinions? i think so, as long as we don't abuse them in the posting.
For we also have the right to post our opinion of the game. We have the right to reply to that person that the graphics don't matter to US as much as to them, that gameplay is more important, to US. And nobody should then claim that we are biased, for after all, it is our opinion, which as stated, we have a right to.
In the past few weeks, both sides have lost sight of this ideal. Old-timers opinions are rejected, and labeled as SMACophantism (wow, I just created a word). And the Newbies are being blamed for basically the opposite - bashing SMAC at all costs. In other words, both sides are being ridiculed for defending their right to their opinion, and for trying to force their opinion onto others. Which is plainly not justified in most cases.
We old timers have become used to a Forum that is different from most, a forum where 6 months ago (and more recently) ideas were posted and respected. A flame was almost never heard of, apart from a couple of obvious exceptions like Domk and Chrisk. And this was good, and we were pleased. Hmm, okay, enough biblical talk.
Suddenly, into this forum is thrust Joe Public. Joe Public does not realise what we have spent a year building, and starts posting flames, and riduculing the old-timers. Who get defensive, and try and keep the forums the way they were, denying Joe Public the ability to change the forums.
Now, we old timers still want such a forum, one where we are not ridiculed for defending our opinion of SMAC, and yet these forums are slowly degenerating into just that - one where both sides ridicule the other for their postings. And the blame has to fall onto both sides. I thought that we learned long ago to ignore petty posts, and yes, I have been guilty of not doing that myself recently. But that is not to say that the blame rests entirely with us, for battle is a two-way street. Conversely, that also does not mean that we can blame everything on the other side.
In the end, most of us are here for the same reason. And that reason is the betterment of SMAC. Reading Analyst's post "Mirror, mirror" today reminded me of just what we have lost on these forums, and I was sadened. Also reading an email from noted old-timer jsorense, who said that the current state of the forums was putting him off completely. And I thought to myself - what have we let this forum become?
This forum was built on the foundations of respect for all others, where one poster was not flamed nor riduculed for his opinion. And in that respect, we had what I have seen on no other large budget game forum. But we have let it slip, and have allowed others to partake in that same slippage. Now, we can't expect others to know what we had before, the joy of knowing that your opinion WOULD be respected on these forums, the joy of knowing that we had made somethign that I personally had never experienced before. Goto other forums, and notice the bitter in-fighting,a nd think to yourself: is that what we want here, sacrificing all that we have built?
Or do we want to return to the days of old, where we learnt to ignore stupid flames, where we fought not with pride and arrogance, but with logic and thought. We have slipped, and I for one would like to partake in the journey back to what we once were.
If somebody wants to belong to our community, and post their thoughts, then we should embrace them, even tho their thoughts differ from ours, for as stated previously, they have the right to that opinion. If they disagree with us, then we should post our thoughts, not in an arrogant way meant to demean, but in a thoughtful way, one that might lead them to consider carefully what we say. And if they still refuse, then we should leave them to their opinion. Flogging a dead horse never got anyone anywhere, and trying to argue with someone who refuses to change his mind won't either. So just let them have their opinion. Respect their right to do so, for a game is not sold just to those that love the game, but to everyone. And thus everyone's opinion is valid.
And so I would call on the old timers to remember what we were, what we had, and what we may have again, and to think of whether it is worth having that back again. And to the newcomers, I would open my arms to you and embrace you as brother. I would welcome you to our community, and ask that you partake in the community in the way that we do.
Not to agree with everything that we say. Not to flame us for an opinion. But to respect all people here, and their opinions. To contribute in a positive way. For the community that I speak of includes anyone who has ever read these forums, and those that are yet to. It is not an elitist club, and there are no rules, other than the fundamental right to hold your own opinion, and to express that opinion.
And that is something that I believe we have all lost sight of recently...
[Appologies if that post sounds nostalgic or long-winded, but to some of us it is this club is important. We are all proud of our friends, or should be, and I consider the people on these forums, though I may never meet them, to be amongst my friends. I may disagree with them at times, but that makes them no less my friends. And just like any friend, I would try and heal their rifts.]
Freddz posted 03-16-99 05:43 PM ET
Sigh, I guess, I'll even resign with my arguments with tOFfGI. Well said, BG.
Btw, you do sound like a monk, especially in the end.
Borodino posted 03-16-99 06:07 PM ET
Amen Brother Greg!
[Sorry. Couldn't resist.]
Imran Siddiqui posted 03-16-99 06:08 PM ET
*Imran eats Olive Branch*
Seriously, I agree. Let us join with respect, and try not to bash anyone.
Imran Siddiqui
Rong posted 03-16-99 06:14 PM ET
Brother Greg, you peacekeeping son of a...
[Sorry, couldn't resist either.]
Q3 posted 03-16-99 06:20 PM ET
I don't like olives.
but i do like the sentiment.
but so far, only the vets have answered, save Freddz.
Va1en posted 03-16-99 06:22 PM ET
WOO WOO! That was the greatest wealth of common sense and logic I have found on the net in my 6 years of using it!
WOO!
Brother Greg posted 03-16-99 06:33 PM ET
Q3, give them time. There's no deadline for them to answer by, just a decision to join us or not...
Nylan posted 03-16-99 06:53 PM ET
Although I've only recently joined this forum, and tried to keep out of the various arguments, I'd just like to say I fully agree.
Nylan
-I have faith in skepticism
yin26 posted 03-16-99 07:04 PM ET
And I thought I was verbose! Good God, Brother Greg, you don't need to punish us .
That fact of the matter is I've always agreed we should agree to disagree if that's what it comes down to. I just don't see why we have to be so dull about it all the time.
Brother Greg's Twin Sister and Alter Ego,
Princess Yin
Brother Greg posted 03-16-99 07:47 PM ET
Yin, I am about the most verbose person here. Which I suppose is not something worth boasting about.
And yeah, torture is fun...
And in the end, abusing or harassing someone is not showing respect for their opinion, which is what it is all about, eh? We've a lot of us done wrong, and it is not doing any good. So, what say we go about fixing it?
I don't think it is too much to ask...
Brother Greg,
Who wished the world smelled of roses,
But just can't get the ode of manure,
Used to fertilize the roses,
out of his nose!

The DirectorGeneral posted 03-16-99 09:04 PM ET
I hereby agree to a peacable solution to the current skirmish.
L. Advinius Aurelius,
AKA the DG.

NIM!
UndertakerAPB posted 03-16-99 09:19 PM ET
Could have sworn I mentioned this in the thread" DECLARATION of WAR.At the very bottom were I said.."
"Can we all just get along..."
I have no malice against anyone, except those trying to bring down my boy Yin.I saw this happen to wissenshaft last month,I didn't back him up much back then.
But refuse now to do that now....
Peace shows cool to me, like I told you before Brother Greg lets wait for CTP to come out then the critisms could then comparisions can be made.With constructive and debatable issues posted.
All of my most recent postes reflect my respect to Yin.Not aiming directly at SMAC.
Kind of getting boring now anyway.This little battle was the only fun going on here for awhile for me.
So consider me part of the Olive branch, and you have my promise that no critisms of this game will come from me.Until CTP comes out then maybe I might want to share my views with others....Does that sound ok.
If I should post one more critism against SMAC, I will formally ban my name on this forum forever.....DEAL.....
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE,
Undertaker
yin26 posted 03-16-99 09:38 PM ET
[Undertaker, please tell me you're joking. No more criticism? That's it--this forum is gonna just shrivel up and die now without a little salsa to go with the poached eggs. Here, let me try to revive you...]
UndertakerAPB,
What's so boring about the game? I've been playing it for weeks-on-end and I never get bored.
You must not be playing it the right way. Do you even understand what Monopole Magnets are?
Rong posted 03-16-99 10:57 PM ET
I understand perfectly what magnetic monopoles are. I don't understand a word what undertaker had just said.
SnowFire posted 03-17-99 12:16 AM ET
Brother Greg: You still have Arnelos to worry about in the race for most verbose. Must be something about those "somber reading rooms of UN Headquarters..."
I have no clue what Undertaker said either, but if he really takes up the olive branch, it's all for the better.
I think I've already worked on the Olive Branch- you won't find a single post in the D Club from me, and in fact I disagreed with one of Victor's threads there. But in any case, let's hope that the only occasional flaming threads are from the true newbies now, and we'll all hope for better AI in the patch, right yin?
Achilles posted 03-17-99 12:46 AM ET
OK, I've been seeing this on the forum for half a year now. I have finally snapped. Will someone please explain this NIM/NIMadier general thing.
mooman posted 03-17-99 12:47 AM ET
wow, ive never seen someone so enamored as undertaker is with yin.
UndertakerAPB posted 03-17-99 01:54 AM ET
For christ sake I wish I had a MIC.Sometimes I reply shorthand just to get off the phone line quick enough so others trying to call me won't get a busy tone.
Yes I will give peace a chance.I respect the Olive branch proposal.I don't wish to continue these critisms myself.
But I will critize those who attack others for there views. I call for a CEASE-FIRE--- is that understandable......

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE,
Undertaker
P.S. To Yin and everyone you have my promise.. no more critisms about SMAC by me, at least not yet.
But still that doesn't stop me for critizing those who tries to prevent FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!

OmniDude posted 03-17-99 03:33 AM ET
Peace in our time. In extension of Va1en's post, I'd just like to add that these forums biggest asset IMHO isn't even the SMAC-related topics, but rather the quality of the non-SMAC related ones. The debate we've had here on capital punishment, capitalism vs. communism, theism/atheism and abortion (to name a few) is still the most engaging and coherent ones I've ever come across in my time one the 'net (and I'm a oldtimer). And in those threads following a reasonable code of conduct is/was essential, because of the emotional involvement.
Obviously everybody here also have strong feelings towards SMAC, s� let's just do like the man (BG) says and back our arguments by coherent reasoning and mutual respect and nothing else (adding a bit of humour for spice won't hurt either, but no chili casseroles, please...?)
Wen_Amon posted 03-17-99 03:50 AM ET
OK, it looks like we have taken the right steps to resolve this issue. Now, in the old timer tradition of getting drunk and yelling, VODKA FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!
Aredhran posted 03-17-99 05:16 AM ET
That was a refreshing reading... Finally some people seem to understand that these forums are not about yelling at each other but discussing a game (that we may or may not like).
I have been lurking around these forums since last June, but never actually bothered to post before I actually got the game... And I must say that back then the discussions (on all topics) were just more... civilized.
My "policy" on those offensive or insulting posters and threads is simply to ignore them. I found that's always the best way to handle these, since after a few posts that no one answers to, these people usually just go away (as we say in French: "Ne pas jeter de l'huile sur le feu" - do not throw oil on a fire, ie. it just makes things worse).
Bottomline: Thanks to Brother Greg to have so adequately (if a bit verbosely) expressed the feelings of what I hope is the majority of people on these forums.
Pax Hominibus Bonae Voluntatis
-Aredhran
sandworm posted 03-17-99 09:35 AM ET
We will be assimilated?
I like the idea (really), but it needs to sound less... like assimilation. Good propaganda can win wars.
Nerve stapling doesn't sound like much fun either!
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Author	Topic: An Olive Branch
Brother Greg	posted 03-16-99 05:23 PM ET Well, the title speaks for itself really. I think that BOTH sides in this little tete-a-tete (sp?) have been getting a little carried away recently, and I for one would like to put an end to this pointless bickering. Blame is pointless, as regardless of who started what, both sides kept it up, and neither side can really call itself blameless in this matter. Yes, some people have made attacks on SMAC. Some of them justified, some not so justified. Do they have the right to do so? I believe they do. And if they bash the game for a reason that we may consider stupid, does that then mean that everyone considers the opinion stupid? I think not. Even someone who says that SMAC sucks because it's graphics are poor has a point. They're just expressing their opinion after all, and they might expect gourard shaded bump mapped voxel lined ocean motion technology in all of their games. To you, me and a lot of other people, a stupid comment. To that person, a criticism of a game. Can we really blame them for that opinion? I think not. Can we post our counter opinions? i think so, as long as we don't abuse them in the posting. For we also have the right to post our opinion of the game. We have the right to reply to that person that the graphics don't matter to US as much as to them, that gameplay is more important, to US. And nobody should then claim that we are biased, for after all, it is our opinion, which as stated, we have a right to. In the past few weeks, both sides have lost sight of this ideal. Old-timers opinions are rejected, and labeled as SMACophantism (wow, I just created a word). And the Newbies are being blamed for basically the opposite - bashing SMAC at all costs. In other words, both sides are being ridiculed for defending their right to their opinion, and for trying to force their opinion onto others. Which is plainly not justified in most cases. We old timers have become used to a Forum that is different from most, a forum where 6 months ago (and more recently) ideas were posted and respected. A flame was almost never heard of, apart from a couple of obvious exceptions like Domk and Chrisk. And this was good, and we were pleased. Hmm, okay, enough biblical talk. Suddenly, into this forum is thrust Joe Public. Joe Public does not realise what we have spent a year building, and starts posting flames, and riduculing the old-timers. Who get defensive, and try and keep the forums the way they were, denying Joe Public the ability to change the forums. Now, we old timers still want such a forum, one where we are not ridiculed for defending our opinion of SMAC, and yet these forums are slowly degenerating into just that - one where both sides ridicule the other for their postings. And the blame has to fall onto both sides. I thought that we learned long ago to ignore petty posts, and yes, I have been guilty of not doing that myself recently. But that is not to say that the blame rests entirely with us, for battle is a two-way street. Conversely, that also does not mean that we can blame everything on the other side. In the end, most of us are here for the same reason. And that reason is the betterment of SMAC. Reading Analyst's post "Mirror, mirror" today reminded me of just what we have lost on these forums, and I was sadened. Also reading an email from noted old-timer jsorense, who said that the current state of the forums was putting him off completely. And I thought to myself - what have we let this forum become? This forum was built on the foundations of respect for all others, where one poster was not flamed nor riduculed for his opinion. And in that respect, we had what I have seen on no other large budget game forum. But we have let it slip, and have allowed others to partake in that same slippage. Now, we can't expect others to know what we had before, the joy of knowing that your opinion WOULD be respected on these forums, the joy of knowing that we had made somethign that I personally had never experienced before. Goto other forums, and notice the bitter in-fighting,a nd think to yourself: is that what we want here, sacrificing all that we have built? Or do we want to return to the days of old, where we learnt to ignore stupid flames, where we fought not with pride and arrogance, but with logic and thought. We have slipped, and I for one would like to partake in the journey back to what we once were. If somebody wants to belong to our community, and post their thoughts, then we should embrace them, even tho their thoughts differ from ours, for as stated previously, they have the right to that opinion. If they disagree with us, then we should post our thoughts, not in an arrogant way meant to demean, but in a thoughtful way, one that might lead them to consider carefully what we say. And if they still refuse, then we should leave them to their opinion. Flogging a dead horse never got anyone anywhere, and trying to argue with someone who refuses to change his mind won't either. So just let them have their opinion. Respect their right to do so, for a game is not sold just to those that love the game, but to everyone. And thus everyone's opinion is valid. And so I would call on the old timers to remember what we were, what we had, and what we may have again, and to think of whether it is worth having that back again. And to the newcomers, I would open my arms to you and embrace you as brother. I would welcome you to our community, and ask that you partake in the community in the way that we do. Not to agree with everything that we say. Not to flame us for an opinion. But to respect all people here, and their opinions. To contribute in a positive way. For the community that I speak of includes anyone who has ever read these forums, and those that are yet to. It is not an elitist club, and there are no rules, other than the fundamental right to hold your own opinion, and to express that opinion. And that is something that I believe we have all lost sight of recently... [Appologies if that post sounds nostalgic or long-winded, but to some of us it is this club is important. We are all proud of our friends, or should be, and I consider the people on these forums, though I may never meet them, to be amongst my friends. I may disagree with them at times, but that makes them no less my friends. And just like any friend, I would try and heal their rifts.]
Freddz	posted 03-16-99 05:43 PM ET Sigh, I guess, I'll even resign with my arguments with tOFfGI. Well said, BG. Btw, you do sound like a monk, especially in the end.
Borodino	posted 03-16-99 06:07 PM ET Amen Brother Greg! [Sorry. Couldn't resist.]
Imran Siddiqui	posted 03-16-99 06:08 PM ET Imran eats Olive Branch Seriously, I agree. Let us join with respect, and try not to bash anyone. Imran Siddiqui
Rong	posted 03-16-99 06:14 PM ET Brother Greg, you peacekeeping son of a... [Sorry, couldn't resist either.]
Q3	posted 03-16-99 06:20 PM ET I don't like olives. but i do like the sentiment. but so far, only the vets have answered, save Freddz.
Va1en	posted 03-16-99 06:22 PM ET WOO WOO! That was the greatest wealth of common sense and logic I have found on the net in my 6 years of using it! WOO!
Brother Greg	posted 03-16-99 06:33 PM ET Q3, give them time. There's no deadline for them to answer by, just a decision to join us or not...
Nylan	posted 03-16-99 06:53 PM ET Although I've only recently joined this forum, and tried to keep out of the various arguments, I'd just like to say I fully agree. Nylan -I have faith in skepticism
yin26	posted 03-16-99 07:04 PM ET And I thought I was verbose! Good God, Brother Greg, you don't need to punish us . That fact of the matter is I've always agreed we should agree to disagree if that's what it comes down to. I just don't see why we have to be so dull about it all the time. Brother Greg's Twin Sister and Alter Ego, Princess Yin
Brother Greg	posted 03-16-99 07:47 PM ET Yin, I am about the most verbose person here. Which I suppose is not something worth boasting about. And yeah, torture is fun... And in the end, abusing or harassing someone is not showing respect for their opinion, which is what it is all about, eh? We've a lot of us done wrong, and it is not doing any good. So, what say we go about fixing it? I don't think it is too much to ask... Brother Greg, Who wished the world smelled of roses, But just can't get the ode of manure, Used to fertilize the roses, out of his nose!
The DirectorGeneral	posted 03-16-99 09:04 PM ET I hereby agree to a peacable solution to the current skirmish. L. Advinius Aurelius, AKA the DG. NIM!
UndertakerAPB	posted 03-16-99 09:19 PM ET Could have sworn I mentioned this in the thread" DECLARATION of WAR.At the very bottom were I said.." "Can we all just get along..." I have no malice against anyone, except those trying to bring down my boy Yin.I saw this happen to wissenshaft last month,I didn't back him up much back then. But refuse now to do that now.... Peace shows cool to me, like I told you before Brother Greg lets wait for CTP to come out then the critisms could then comparisions can be made.With constructive and debatable issues posted. All of my most recent postes reflect my respect to Yin.Not aiming directly at SMAC. Kind of getting boring now anyway.This little battle was the only fun going on here for awhile for me. So consider me part of the Olive branch, and you have my promise that no critisms of this game will come from me.Until CTP comes out then maybe I might want to share my views with others....Does that sound ok. If I should post one more critism against SMAC, I will formally ban my name on this forum forever.....DEAL..... DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, Undertaker
yin26	posted 03-16-99 09:38 PM ET [Undertaker, please tell me you're joking. No more criticism? That's it--this forum is gonna just shrivel up and die now without a little salsa to go with the poached eggs. Here, let me try to revive you...] UndertakerAPB, What's so boring about the game? I've been playing it for weeks-on-end and I never get bored. You must not be playing it the right way. Do you even understand what Monopole Magnets are?
Rong	posted 03-16-99 10:57 PM ET I understand perfectly what magnetic monopoles are. I don't understand a word what undertaker had just said.
SnowFire	posted 03-17-99 12:16 AM ET Brother Greg: You still have Arnelos to worry about in the race for most verbose. Must be something about those "somber reading rooms of UN Headquarters..." I have no clue what Undertaker said either, but if he really takes up the olive branch, it's all for the better. I think I've already worked on the Olive Branch- you won't find a single post in the D Club from me, and in fact I disagreed with one of Victor's threads there. But in any case, let's hope that the only occasional flaming threads are from the true newbies now, and we'll all hope for better AI in the patch, right yin?
Achilles	posted 03-17-99 12:46 AM ET OK, I've been seeing this on the forum for half a year now. I have finally snapped. Will someone please explain this NIM/NIMadier general thing.
mooman	posted 03-17-99 12:47 AM ET wow, ive never seen someone so enamored as undertaker is with yin.
UndertakerAPB	posted 03-17-99 01:54 AM ET For christ sake I wish I had a MIC.Sometimes I reply shorthand just to get off the phone line quick enough so others trying to call me won't get a busy tone. Yes I will give peace a chance.I respect the Olive branch proposal.I don't wish to continue these critisms myself. But I will critize those who attack others for there views. I call for a CEASE-FIRE--- is that understandable...... DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, Undertaker P.S. To Yin and everyone you have my promise.. no more critisms about SMAC by me, at least not yet. But still that doesn't stop me for critizing those who tries to prevent FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!
OmniDude	posted 03-17-99 03:33 AM ET Peace in our time. In extension of Va1en's post, I'd just like to add that these forums biggest asset IMHO isn't even the SMAC-related topics, but rather the quality of the non-SMAC related ones. The debate we've had here on capital punishment, capitalism vs. communism, theism/atheism and abortion (to name a few) is still the most engaging and coherent ones I've ever come across in my time one the 'net (and I'm a oldtimer). And in those threads following a reasonable code of conduct is/was essential, because of the emotional involvement. Obviously everybody here also have strong feelings towards SMAC, s� let's just do like the man (BG) says and back our arguments by coherent reasoning and mutual respect and nothing else (adding a bit of humour for spice won't hurt either, but no chili casseroles, please...?)
Wen_Amon	posted 03-17-99 03:50 AM ET OK, it looks like we have taken the right steps to resolve this issue. Now, in the old timer tradition of getting drunk and yelling, VODKA FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!
Aredhran	posted 03-17-99 05:16 AM ET That was a refreshing reading... Finally some people seem to understand that these forums are not about yelling at each other but discussing a game (that we may or may not like). I have been lurking around these forums since last June, but never actually bothered to post before I actually got the game... And I must say that back then the discussions (on all topics) were just more... civilized. My "policy" on those offensive or insulting posters and threads is simply to ignore them. I found that's always the best way to handle these, since after a few posts that no one answers to, these people usually just go away (as we say in French: "Ne pas jeter de l'huile sur le feu" - do not throw oil on a fire, ie. it just makes things worse). Bottomline: Thanks to Brother Greg to have so adequately (if a bit verbosely) expressed the feelings of what I hope is the majority of people on these forums. Pax Hominibus Bonae Voluntatis -Aredhran
sandworm	posted 03-17-99 09:35 AM ET We will be assimilated? I like the idea (really), but it needs to sound less... like assimilation. Good propaganda can win wars. Nerve stapling doesn't sound like much fun either!