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Author Topic:   Diplomacy problem/question

SirOscar posted 03-16-99 05:00 PM ET
Ok so I decide to play my first game at libraian, I am holding my own but I am rated 3rd, it is clear to me that I am quickly falling behind in size and research, which playing UoP should not be happening, I know I have messed up early and I am about ready to call it quits and try again new. At the time I have pact with Pk'ers(#1) and Morgan(#2) and the 3 of us are at war with Hive and Survilist. Well Morgan does a sneak attack on me and breaks our pact, for no reason that I can fig but hey what do you expect from a capitlist pig, this really puts me in a bind and I am about to restart when PK calls a council meeting to elect himself supreme leader, well he has been a good pact brother and I was ready to quit anyway so I vote for him, I am the only one to vote with him and it's real close but he just misses getting it. Now on the very NEXT turn he comes to me and demands I give him somthing, don't even remember what it was, I refuse and he then attacks me!!! ??????? The one thing that REALLY bugs me about this game, the one thing that I think really keeps this game from being really good, is the way the AI handles diplomacy. The AI jumps in and out of treaty/pact/war at a drop of a hat,there never seems to be any reason except to get the HUMAN player.
Sorry for being so long just wanted to vent, I sure hope they work on the AI diplomacy part of this game, in my opinion it needs some serious work.
Pique posted 03-16-99 05:07 PM ET
See the older Transcend-Ironman thread (did I mention that one again?) for a few reliable and relatively easy methods of placating the AI diplomacy.
Pique
LLGamer posted 03-16-99 06:16 PM ET
SirOscar:
I think this general phenomenon is prevalent in most AIs, unfortunately. When you set the difficulty to the higher levels, the 'customary' approach is to change thresholds (e.g fuzzy logic functions)that trigger certain changes. What that means is that the computer essentially changes the rules. In simple cases, it just cheats (e.g. gets better combat odds, units appear from nowhere, generates resources faster, etc). In more complex AIs (I guess you could call this 'better' AI), it changes some of the ground rules. Here, it appears to be produce crabbier AI opponents. Hence, the behavior. Surely, you know people who act like this in real life...
Now, what we all want is an AI that gets SMARTER at higher levels. This translates to using better strategies, being 'sneakier', and generally outplaying you. That's the challenge we all crave. Sorry to keep returning to this subject in my posts, but what we really need is an AI that can spank us using the same rules.
Now, the other side of the argument is: what would you do if the tables were reversed? You may have made the same decision as the AI; that faction is simply in my way, and my manifest destiny dictates that it be crushed. Actually, when you think about it, most gamers would respond that way rather than to acknowledge a generous ally. Unfortuately, most games nowadays reward the Ghengis Khan rather than the Gandhi approach...
sandworm posted 03-16-99 06:27 PM ET
Erratic behavior in diplomacy is not completely unheard of in the "real" world, but you're right, the AI diplomacy, while much improved over CIV2, could use tweaking. Of course, I wouldn't want it to be completely predictable either, that's also unrealistic. Treachery IS part of the game.

uncleroggy posted 03-16-99 09:58 PM ET
Siroscar,
Although I have read that others find the A/I to be psychotic, I haven't had that unfortunate experience. As a matter of fact, I find the A/I to be far too predictable and I can usually manipulate it to give me most of what I want. Therefore, I'll suggest a few ideas that I use and you might want to try them and then post back whether they worked for you or not.
First, I keep a keen eye on the power graphs. Usually, you need one or two good friends if you are in the top one or two to keep from being picked on. I try to keep at least one of those factions as magnanimous. I find submissive factions less helpful in a pinch so I'll give a gift ot two to keep them up at magnanimous. In short, everyone will become an enemy if you don't make them a friend.
Second, I look at their disposition when we negotiate. I know yang and miriam always want something as they are obstinate or worse and I will give a little to keep them off my back just because they are real pains in the neck. This usually works as long as they don't think they can take me. Learn to give as a war is far more expensive than a tech.
Third, I don't rush into pacts like I used to. The a/i likes to ambush you into other faction's fights and you get left holding the bag. Stay neutral and pick the fights you want to be in. This also applies when you are attacked by probe teams.
Fourth, abstain from votes that will not yield your desired result. No position is better than the wrong position. Or so it seems.
Fifth, If you are week, realise it and don't make anyone mad. The A/I seems to smell blood in the water. Remember that you can bully weaker factions and they will do it to you too.
Sixth, always use air units to recon other factions and the general buildup of troops in their territory. The A/I does not hide things very well and aircraft and especially copters can snoop around quite a bit. Just don't leave them in enemy territory too long.
Oh well, good luck and let me know if it works for you.

uncleroggy out
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Author	Topic: Diplomacy problem/question
SirOscar	posted 03-16-99 05:00 PM ET Ok so I decide to play my first game at libraian, I am holding my own but I am rated 3rd, it is clear to me that I am quickly falling behind in size and research, which playing UoP should not be happening, I know I have messed up early and I am about ready to call it quits and try again new. At the time I have pact with Pk'ers(#1) and Morgan(#2) and the 3 of us are at war with Hive and Survilist. Well Morgan does a sneak attack on me and breaks our pact, for no reason that I can fig but hey what do you expect from a capitlist pig, this really puts me in a bind and I am about to restart when PK calls a council meeting to elect himself supreme leader, well he has been a good pact brother and I was ready to quit anyway so I vote for him, I am the only one to vote with him and it's real close but he just misses getting it. Now on the very NEXT turn he comes to me and demands I give him somthing, don't even remember what it was, I refuse and he then attacks me!!! ??????? The one thing that REALLY bugs me about this game, the one thing that I think really keeps this game from being really good, is the way the AI handles diplomacy. The AI jumps in and out of treaty/pact/war at a drop of a hat,there never seems to be any reason except to get the HUMAN player. Sorry for being so long just wanted to vent, I sure hope they work on the AI diplomacy part of this game, in my opinion it needs some serious work.
Pique	posted 03-16-99 05:07 PM ET See the older Transcend-Ironman thread (did I mention that one again?) for a few reliable and relatively easy methods of placating the AI diplomacy. Pique
LLGamer	posted 03-16-99 06:16 PM ET SirOscar: I think this general phenomenon is prevalent in most AIs, unfortunately. When you set the difficulty to the higher levels, the 'customary' approach is to change thresholds (e.g fuzzy logic functions)that trigger certain changes. What that means is that the computer essentially changes the rules. In simple cases, it just cheats (e.g. gets better combat odds, units appear from nowhere, generates resources faster, etc). In more complex AIs (I guess you could call this 'better' AI), it changes some of the ground rules. Here, it appears to be produce crabbier AI opponents. Hence, the behavior. Surely, you know people who act like this in real life... Now, what we all want is an AI that gets SMARTER at higher levels. This translates to using better strategies, being 'sneakier', and generally outplaying you. That's the challenge we all crave. Sorry to keep returning to this subject in my posts, but what we really need is an AI that can spank us using the same rules. Now, the other side of the argument is: what would you do if the tables were reversed? You may have made the same decision as the AI; that faction is simply in my way, and my manifest destiny dictates that it be crushed. Actually, when you think about it, most gamers would respond that way rather than to acknowledge a generous ally. Unfortuately, most games nowadays reward the Ghengis Khan rather than the Gandhi approach...
sandworm	posted 03-16-99 06:27 PM ET Erratic behavior in diplomacy is not completely unheard of in the "real" world, but you're right, the AI diplomacy, while much improved over CIV2, could use tweaking. Of course, I wouldn't want it to be completely predictable either, that's also unrealistic. Treachery IS part of the game.
uncleroggy	posted 03-16-99 09:58 PM ET Siroscar, Although I have read that others find the A/I to be psychotic, I haven't had that unfortunate experience. As a matter of fact, I find the A/I to be far too predictable and I can usually manipulate it to give me most of what I want. Therefore, I'll suggest a few ideas that I use and you might want to try them and then post back whether they worked for you or not. First, I keep a keen eye on the power graphs. Usually, you need one or two good friends if you are in the top one or two to keep from being picked on. I try to keep at least one of those factions as magnanimous. I find submissive factions less helpful in a pinch so I'll give a gift ot two to keep them up at magnanimous. In short, everyone will become an enemy if you don't make them a friend. Second, I look at their disposition when we negotiate. I know yang and miriam always want something as they are obstinate or worse and I will give a little to keep them off my back just because they are real pains in the neck. This usually works as long as they don't think they can take me. Learn to give as a war is far more expensive than a tech. Third, I don't rush into pacts like I used to. The a/i likes to ambush you into other faction's fights and you get left holding the bag. Stay neutral and pick the fights you want to be in. This also applies when you are attacked by probe teams. Fourth, abstain from votes that will not yield your desired result. No position is better than the wrong position. Or so it seems. Fifth, If you are week, realise it and don't make anyone mad. The A/I seems to smell blood in the water. Remember that you can bully weaker factions and they will do it to you too. Sixth, always use air units to recon other factions and the general buildup of troops in their territory. The A/I does not hide things very well and aircraft and especially copters can snoop around quite a bit. Just don't leave them in enemy territory too long. Oh well, good luck and let me know if it works for you. uncleroggy out