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Author Topic:   Games needn't be glitzy to sell.

Zoetrope posted 03-15-99 08:27 PM ET
If you've seen the Pokomon (sp?) ads on TV (the gross ones where the driver crushes the bus to trap the cute passengers) you may have noticed that the product's graphics are on a par with the original Donkey Kong!
While I wouldn't suggest that strategy games become quite so primitive, it does indicate that the sales execs of large volume products think that the market doesn't require slow and expensive gimmicks such as 3D units.
That observation may be a blow to the graphic artists and art lovers, but let's face it, what part do their more advanced creations, such as the beautiful scenic postcards at the Firaxis site, play in the game?
(Btw, are they even on the CD?)
When I saw pictures like the ``Hovertank on the Open Road'', I thought that was a snapshot from the game. Perhaps that's what the sales crews wanted me to think? In fact, there's no such scene, nor anything comparable, anywhere in the game.
Someone will point to the movies; they're ok to look at, especially the first few times, but there's more information (`the first principle of warfare', remember?) from the text of the Datalinks.
I'd rather that Firaxis had spent the expense and person-hours on providing more sorting options for the city and unit lists. (Surely with your talents you can do better in that regard?)
So I'm thinking that all this fine art is an expense that (1) gives a false impression of the game (as is sadly the case with most games, including the aforementioned Pokomon), (b) is irrelevant to gameplay, and (c) impedes progress in the essentials of strategy and design.
There are a few honorable exceptions to the industry's low standards of truth in visual product representation, most outstandingly among those in my possession being the adventure game Twinsen's Odyssey which looks and plays even better than the lush advertisements on its box cover. T.O. is heavily 3D throughout, but it plays very fast with many units in combat simultaneously on the same screen on old (P-100) hardware!
T.O. uses polygons with Gouraud shading. So one might expect sprites, or whatever SMAC uses, to be significantly faster.
Perhaps SMAC is computation bound? But in that case it does seem odd that it chooses a path so quickly, yet takes so long to send a single unit to its destination. This is with all the `fast' options on.
Isn't there supposed to be an option to send a unit directly from A to B, without showing all the steps along the way? If there is, then it's not working in version 2.0, because I've tried every relevantly labeled item in the Preferences menus.
Since this is the most tedious part of one's turn, and since units move much faster when they're offscreen, a speedup really should be available.
Always remember that we're on these forums saying this because we love the game.
Consider it `tough love' if you will.
When a game grips us as this does, we soon want to smooth its rough edges, tidy its loose threads, expand its customisability, streamline its engine and its rules. Because of its outstanding merits, the salient defects and oversights are the more jarring, like an intelligent beauty wearing butterfly spectacles.
yin26 posted 03-15-99 08:37 PM ET
Hey! A fellow T.O. fan--I never thought I'd meet one. I keep telling people it's a great series (1 and 2), but it wasn't advertised through the normal channels, so it's terribly under-played.
Anyway, I agree. If it comes down to better graphics or better gameplay, gameplay should win every time. Please Firaxis, take these good people's advice about A.I. and such to heart.
Having said that, I'd like to see both good graphics (yes, I candy) and good gameplay. Now, I'm no genius, but that seems a pretty obvious goal to me.
As for the bait-and-switch tactics you make metion of, I've declard myself "98% Sarcasm-Free" for the next 8 hours.
Victor Galis posted 03-15-99 09:14 PM ET
True, but you can't just move a unit skipping the steps in between. Suppose there's an enemy unit in between point A and point B, that is hidden, you might not be able to move,but you mustn't know that until you are there. Also enemy units have a right to watch you move, otherwise you could sneak past their defences unnotices, with uncloaked units.
Zoetrope posted 03-16-99 02:21 AM ET
Yes, everyone, listen to yin26 and (even) me (for once), the Twinsen games are exquisite, luxuriously designed adventures of great length; they even have elements of strategy.
Victor, what you say is true, but my point is when my unit moves off-screen it zips along, but when it's visible to me, it's very slow. This is not an issue of whether rival units can detect its passage; the two points are independent.
Freudianslip posted 03-16-99 02:32 AM ET
Well I think that the genre plays a big role in determining the impacts of graphical splendor on versimilitude. For example, would Quake have been as much with ASCII graphics? For me, a large part of the fun is hearing the shrieks of the mutilated, and seeing the rich fountains of arterial fluid pumping furiously forth from ruptured chest cavities, and the disgusting squelch as flesh is ripped into hundreds of bloody, twitching pieces. For a TBS, however, the impact of visceral thrills is far less important, I'll grant that.
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Author	Topic: Games needn't be glitzy to sell.
Zoetrope	posted 03-15-99 08:27 PM ET If you've seen the Pokomon (sp?) ads on TV (the gross ones where the driver crushes the bus to trap the cute passengers) you may have noticed that the product's graphics are on a par with the original Donkey Kong! While I wouldn't suggest that strategy games become quite so primitive, it does indicate that the sales execs of large volume products think that the market doesn't require slow and expensive gimmicks such as 3D units. That observation may be a blow to the graphic artists and art lovers, but let's face it, what part do their more advanced creations, such as the beautiful scenic postcards at the Firaxis site, play in the game? (Btw, are they even on the CD?) When I saw pictures like the ``Hovertank on the Open Road'', I thought that was a snapshot from the game. Perhaps that's what the sales crews wanted me to think? In fact, there's no such scene, nor anything comparable, anywhere in the game. Someone will point to the movies; they're ok to look at, especially the first few times, but there's more information (`the first principle of warfare', remember?) from the text of the Datalinks. I'd rather that Firaxis had spent the expense and person-hours on providing more sorting options for the city and unit lists. (Surely with your talents you can do better in that regard?) So I'm thinking that all this fine art is an expense that (1) gives a false impression of the game (as is sadly the case with most games, including the aforementioned Pokomon), (b) is irrelevant to gameplay, and (c) impedes progress in the essentials of strategy and design. There are a few honorable exceptions to the industry's low standards of truth in visual product representation, most outstandingly among those in my possession being the adventure game Twinsen's Odyssey which looks and plays even better than the lush advertisements on its box cover. T.O. is heavily 3D throughout, but it plays very fast with many units in combat simultaneously on the same screen on old (P-100) hardware! T.O. uses polygons with Gouraud shading. So one might expect sprites, or whatever SMAC uses, to be significantly faster. Perhaps SMAC is computation bound? But in that case it does seem odd that it chooses a path so quickly, yet takes so long to send a single unit to its destination. This is with all the `fast' options on. Isn't there supposed to be an option to send a unit directly from A to B, without showing all the steps along the way? If there is, then it's not working in version 2.0, because I've tried every relevantly labeled item in the Preferences menus. Since this is the most tedious part of one's turn, and since units move much faster when they're offscreen, a speedup really should be available. Always remember that we're on these forums saying this because we love the game. Consider it `tough love' if you will. When a game grips us as this does, we soon want to smooth its rough edges, tidy its loose threads, expand its customisability, streamline its engine and its rules. Because of its outstanding merits, the salient defects and oversights are the more jarring, like an intelligent beauty wearing butterfly spectacles.
yin26	posted 03-15-99 08:37 PM ET Hey! A fellow T.O. fan--I never thought I'd meet one. I keep telling people it's a great series (1 and 2), but it wasn't advertised through the normal channels, so it's terribly under-played. Anyway, I agree. If it comes down to better graphics or better gameplay, gameplay should win every time. Please Firaxis, take these good people's advice about A.I. and such to heart. Having said that, I'd like to see both good graphics (yes, I candy) and good gameplay. Now, I'm no genius, but that seems a pretty obvious goal to me. As for the bait-and-switch tactics you make metion of, I've declard myself "98% Sarcasm-Free" for the next 8 hours.
Victor Galis	posted 03-15-99 09:14 PM ET True, but you can't just move a unit skipping the steps in between. Suppose there's an enemy unit in between point A and point B, that is hidden, you might not be able to move,but you mustn't know that until you are there. Also enemy units have a right to watch you move, otherwise you could sneak past their defences unnotices, with uncloaked units.
Zoetrope	posted 03-16-99 02:21 AM ET Yes, everyone, listen to yin26 and (even) me (for once), the Twinsen games are exquisite, luxuriously designed adventures of great length; they even have elements of strategy. Victor, what you say is true, but my point is when my unit moves off-screen it zips along, but when it's visible to me, it's very slow. This is not an issue of whether rival units can detect its passage; the two points are independent.
Freudianslip	posted 03-16-99 02:32 AM ET Well I think that the genre plays a big role in determining the impacts of graphical splendor on versimilitude. For example, would Quake have been as much with ASCII graphics? For me, a large part of the fun is hearing the shrieks of the mutilated, and seeing the rich fountains of arterial fluid pumping furiously forth from ruptured chest cavities, and the disgusting squelch as flesh is ripped into hundreds of bloody, twitching pieces. For a TBS, however, the impact of visceral thrills is far less important, I'll grant that.