Cloning Vats: REALLY great disbalancer

  Alpha Centauri Forums
  The Game
  Cloning Vats: REALLY great disbalancer

profile | register | prefs | faq | search

Author Topic:   Cloning Vats: REALLY great disbalancer

Oleg Leschoff posted 03-10-99 07:59 AM ET
About Cloning Vats project.
I'm sure that this is TOO unbalanced project. First, it gives the greatest thing that seems to be just enough for a single SP -- deletes the disadvantages of the Power and Thought Control social choises.
But the other its side is IMHO too powerful. The only thing you have to do after it's built is build those hab facilities, wait a couple of turns and declare youreself the supreme leader.
The disadvantages are just imaginative. Don't think that riots is one. In fact, CV even eases this problem. Just look -- you have not the method to determine if the city grows next turn without entering it. So you will regulary get those occasional drone riots caused by pop growth, or you'll spent great timed checking out every base if it's going to grow, and if it is, remove some workers to prevent riot. But with CV you exactly know that EVERY base grows, and so you have much better way to prevent any occasional riots! And no, removing workers because of that won't hurt you because city grows and the number of workers will remain the same or, if you have enough psych, it'll increase.
Then. Look at the idea of this project. WHAT is cloning? This is the method to clone DNA of the creature, and get the identical creature. But guys, do you believe that this new creature will grow momentally??? Then this is not cloning, but nanoreplication, I think. Yes, cloning must let you have more talents. Perhaps, two more talents per city.
And about really NEGATIVE effect. The game loses much of its features when this built. Beside the fact that it'll just end. Also, the Sky Hydroponics lab is obsolete. And all that social engeneering looses part of its actuality because it's no need in the Growth rating anymore. Perhaps it might just increase it... At all, I think that getting this Pop Boom effect with more 'legal' methods will be more interesting than just building that SP and get it all...
BoomBoom posted 03-10-99 08:33 AM ET
What do you mean Sky Hydro is obsolete, as far as I know you still need to feed your citizen's, because otherwise they won't grow. I have actually gone to war over the cloning vats, so i agree it is a very powerfull SP, but so was Women's Suffrage in Civ 2.
Giant Squid posted 03-10-99 10:30 AM ET
I think they specifically made a few secret projects semi-unbalanced. If I were playing against you in a multiplayer game, I'd let you have the vats if I could have the Matrix, or perhaps the Algorithm.
<=O=E
X Calibre posted 03-10-99 11:00 AM ET
What cloning vats allows you to do is be more liberal with your social choices because you don't have to worry about growth anymore. That's about it. If you think it is a definate game ender then try this. In a city build a children's creche and make the social choices planned economics and democracy, this will make growth +6 in any city that has a creche. Any city that has +6 growth acts exactly the same as if it had a cloning vat only you can achieve this much earlier on. What I'm trying to say is you don't need the vats to have explosive population.
Pragmatist posted 03-10-99 11:02 AM ET
The CV are cool but I've found that the AI doesn't let you win a Diplomatic victory with out having the muscle to back it up. I had the CV as Peacekeepers the other night and got the 3/4 vote in 2310. Wow! A fast victory right? Well, the Spartans, the Hive and Miriam all said no thank you and I had to go out and conquer them anyway. This took another 45 years. I think the project is designed with multiplayer in mind and I doubt that the person to achieve it will win very often.
Khan Singh posted 03-10-99 11:03 AM ET
Of course, the Cloning Vats are also a really great way to overtake a larger faction that has been dominating the game. In this way it can act as a balancing factor rather than as an imbalancer.
Many of the Secret Projects give great advantages to the owner. I admit that the cloning vats can almost instantly change the whole nature of the game as your faction doubles in size (and Council votes). But by that point in the game raw numbers of citizens don't really matter very much. Most of the new clones will become Transcends anyway.
Cloning is a real technology. Well, not instant cloning to adulthood, but the basic idea is possible. Humanity may well face something like the Cloning Vats in its future. SMAC just extrapolates from current possibilities.
Also, I like to watch the little rat clones get dropped into the funnel. It's cruel, I know, but I think it's funny.
I agree that there should be more of a penalty for cloning, maybe a drone increase to reflect people's unhappiness with the procedure. But since most of the clones turn into Transcends anyway, I don't know if this is really a penalty at all.
tOFfGI posted 03-10-99 11:10 AM ET
The only _really_ unbalancing project is the ascent to trancendance...
agoraphobe posted 03-10-99 12:35 PM ET
Those are chickens going down the funnel...
Deep Blue posted 03-10-99 02:01 PM ET
I got voted leader in 2260 on transcent level by using the democracy/planned/childrens cretche.
I did have to set the psych to 20% and build recreative commons+network node(virtual world) in every city(and I had many cities), but it was worth it. generally ALL my citizens started as drones...
If you don't like planned/democracy you can just prepare and then switch planned/democracy for 10 years. Watch your pop multiply and then switch back
But then the clonins vats also cancels some minuses for the future sociaties.
Khan Singh posted 03-10-99 04:30 PM ET
Chickens. I stand corrected.
Shining1 posted 03-10-99 08:29 PM ET
I agree. The vat's are unbalanced. They should merit only a +2 growth in each city, with perhaps some small advantages added on.
Having said that, MOST of the end game seems to be unbalanced.
To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


Hop to:

Contact Us | Alpha Centauri Home

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.18
© Madrona Park, Inc., 1998.

Author	Topic: Cloning Vats: REALLY great disbalancer
Oleg Leschoff	posted 03-10-99 07:59 AM ET About Cloning Vats project. I'm sure that this is TOO unbalanced project. First, it gives the greatest thing that seems to be just enough for a single SP -- deletes the disadvantages of the Power and Thought Control social choises. But the other its side is IMHO too powerful. The only thing you have to do after it's built is build those hab facilities, wait a couple of turns and declare youreself the supreme leader. The disadvantages are just imaginative. Don't think that riots is one. In fact, CV even eases this problem. Just look -- you have not the method to determine if the city grows next turn without entering it. So you will regulary get those occasional drone riots caused by pop growth, or you'll spent great timed checking out every base if it's going to grow, and if it is, remove some workers to prevent riot. But with CV you exactly know that EVERY base grows, and so you have much better way to prevent any occasional riots! And no, removing workers because of that won't hurt you because city grows and the number of workers will remain the same or, if you have enough psych, it'll increase. Then. Look at the idea of this project. WHAT is cloning? This is the method to clone DNA of the creature, and get the identical creature. But guys, do you believe that this new creature will grow momentally??? Then this is not cloning, but nanoreplication, I think. Yes, cloning must let you have more talents. Perhaps, two more talents per city. And about really NEGATIVE effect. The game loses much of its features when this built. Beside the fact that it'll just end. Also, the Sky Hydroponics lab is obsolete. And all that social engeneering looses part of its actuality because it's no need in the Growth rating anymore. Perhaps it might just increase it... At all, I think that getting this Pop Boom effect with more 'legal' methods will be more interesting than just building that SP and get it all...
BoomBoom	posted 03-10-99 08:33 AM ET What do you mean Sky Hydro is obsolete, as far as I know you still need to feed your citizen's, because otherwise they won't grow. I have actually gone to war over the cloning vats, so i agree it is a very powerfull SP, but so was Women's Suffrage in Civ 2.
Giant Squid	posted 03-10-99 10:30 AM ET I think they specifically made a few secret projects semi-unbalanced. If I were playing against you in a multiplayer game, I'd let you have the vats if I could have the Matrix, or perhaps the Algorithm. <=O=E
X Calibre	posted 03-10-99 11:00 AM ET What cloning vats allows you to do is be more liberal with your social choices because you don't have to worry about growth anymore. That's about it. If you think it is a definate game ender then try this. In a city build a children's creche and make the social choices planned economics and democracy, this will make growth +6 in any city that has a creche. Any city that has +6 growth acts exactly the same as if it had a cloning vat only you can achieve this much earlier on. What I'm trying to say is you don't need the vats to have explosive population.
Pragmatist	posted 03-10-99 11:02 AM ET The CV are cool but I've found that the AI doesn't let you win a Diplomatic victory with out having the muscle to back it up. I had the CV as Peacekeepers the other night and got the 3/4 vote in 2310. Wow! A fast victory right? Well, the Spartans, the Hive and Miriam all said no thank you and I had to go out and conquer them anyway. This took another 45 years. I think the project is designed with multiplayer in mind and I doubt that the person to achieve it will win very often.
Khan Singh	posted 03-10-99 11:03 AM ET Of course, the Cloning Vats are also a really great way to overtake a larger faction that has been dominating the game. In this way it can act as a balancing factor rather than as an imbalancer. Many of the Secret Projects give great advantages to the owner. I admit that the cloning vats can almost instantly change the whole nature of the game as your faction doubles in size (and Council votes). But by that point in the game raw numbers of citizens don't really matter very much. Most of the new clones will become Transcends anyway. Cloning is a real technology. Well, not instant cloning to adulthood, but the basic idea is possible. Humanity may well face something like the Cloning Vats in its future. SMAC just extrapolates from current possibilities. Also, I like to watch the little rat clones get dropped into the funnel. It's cruel, I know, but I think it's funny. I agree that there should be more of a penalty for cloning, maybe a drone increase to reflect people's unhappiness with the procedure. But since most of the clones turn into Transcends anyway, I don't know if this is really a penalty at all.
tOFfGI	posted 03-10-99 11:10 AM ET The only _really_ unbalancing project is the ascent to trancendance...
agoraphobe	posted 03-10-99 12:35 PM ET Those are chickens going down the funnel...
Deep Blue	posted 03-10-99 02:01 PM ET I got voted leader in 2260 on transcent level by using the democracy/planned/childrens cretche. I did have to set the psych to 20% and build recreative commons+network node(virtual world) in every city(and I had many cities), but it was worth it. generally ALL my citizens started as drones... If you don't like planned/democracy you can just prepare and then switch planned/democracy for 10 years. Watch your pop multiply and then switch back But then the clonins vats also cancels some minuses for the future sociaties.
Khan Singh	posted 03-10-99 04:30 PM ET Chickens. I stand corrected.
Shining1	posted 03-10-99 08:29 PM ET I agree. The vat's are unbalanced. They should merit only a +2 growth in each city, with perhaps some small advantages added on. Having said that, MOST of the end game seems to be unbalanced.