posted 03-05-99 12:15 AM ET        

Dear Firaxis,

Did you or did you not design your game to work under the Windows environment?

To say, "Oh, yeah, THAT crash. Well, that's a Windows problem" seems odd considering my Windows wouldn't crash (at that specific moment at least) unless I were playing SMAC would it?

True, Windows absolutely sucks and programming for it must be a nightmare, but that's your job: To program under Windows so it doesn't crash. Our job is to pay your salary. If you don't do your job, we can't really do ours.

I truly do appreciate that there is even such a person as Jeff here to read what we have to say, but why not just suck it up and say, "O.K., we'll kill the bug" and then fix it? Blaming Windows is extremely lame.

[Jeff's personal reply to my e-mail account]

Hi yin. I've got to ask what your problem is. Feel free to have
discussions about the game, even if you're not the biggest fan. But
please don't interfere with my ability to troubleshoot problems. If you
disagree with my suggestion, and have another that might solve the
problem, let me know. But don't purposelessly stir up trouble just to be
a pain. If it continues, I'll have to restrict your access to the forum,
which I REALLY don't want to do. Can we work this out?
--
Jeffrey Kennedy Morris
Firaxis Games
QA Director/Programmer
[email protected]

[my reply]

Dear Jeff,

If I misunderstood your post, then I apologize. But from what I could tell, people were reporting a crash (which I have also encountered) and your response was something to the effect of "That's a Window's problem not a SMAC problem." If you didn't mean to say that, then your post was ambiguous. How could it NOT be a SMAC problem when so many people encounter the same problem? If it's not a SMAC problem, then why does my system lock-up only when I play SMAC at certain stages in the game?

This IS clearly a problem between SMAC and Windows, but your response seemed to put the blame on Windows without admitting, "Yeah, we should have worked around that. It will be in patch 3.0"

For the record, you have been very helpful to many people, which is more than I can say for any other company I've dealt with. So don't get me wrong, I think you're doing a GREAT job. You would move to STELLAR status if you never blamed Windows (we all know Windows sucks) and didn't threaten to ban people for bringing up a valid point that you don't agree with.

Anyway, I'd be very interested in hearing your Windows v. SMAC perspective. If you clear this up for me, I'd appreciate it.

[Jeff's final(?) reply]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to spare. Some other time.

--
Jeffrey Kennedy Morris
Firaxis Games
QA Director/Programmer
[email protected]

[my final(?) two cents]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't even begin to understand the challenges of programming a game for the Windows environment, but it is WORTHLESS to tell me "Oh, we didn't forsee that Windows configuration when we started, so that's not a SMAC problem. Fix your hardware."

So, Mr. QA Director/Programmer, it seems like they left out something in your quality assurance training:

Don't deflect blame. Don't threaten to ban your fans for being rightfully (even ignorantly, if that's your opinion) angry that their game doesn't work. And never forget to let people know you are honestly doing your best to fix the problem.

So, Jeff, if this seems like I'm just being a pain, feel free to ban me. I can just sign up again anyway (and I do have IP address work-arounds).

And next time, if you threaten to ban me, at least have the courage to enlighten me first.

Loyal (believe it or not) Firaxis Fan,

Yin

posted 03-05-99 03:58 AM ET            

Troll: ``Look at me complain.''

Numerous Helpful Respondents: ``We
appreciate your situation, and here's how to
be more constructive about solving it.''

posted 03-05-99 04:16 AM ET            

Congratulations!

I thought at least a few people who understood the joke would post first. I had no idea an idiot would post so quickly.

Re-read it all very slowly. Does the picture appear?

Funny, isn't it? I give a Jeff-like response in reply and I get labled a troll. Jeff blames Windows for problems he helped create and SMAC idiots like you come running to defend Firaxis.

Go ahead. Accomodate Firaxis' "little" errors--a crash here and there (who cares!)--and insulting gameplay--hey look, all the units look the same (neat!).

posted 03-05-99 04:27 AM ET            

But for Jeff to do that would awfully contradict the right of Freedom of Speech don't you think.I mean do we just ban people just for being upset with a buggy game.But the threat is weak though.

If Jeff wishes to do that he will lose at least half of the people who had arguments concerning this game.Many of whom now has a reason to migrate to CTP FORUM.

Yin26 was at least decent enough to post his topic in the trouble-shooting section.It also looked like he had a decent question, and got a very undecent reply or two.

It also seems to me Imran doesn't even know when someone is threating him/her in front of his/her face.

Now I posted a very nice comment to Jeff many weeks back,for his quick replies. But I am not going to start kissing his ass as I see most are doing here.

posted 03-05-99 08:14 AM ET            

Yin26, you must have really struck a nerve with Jeff, but don't be surprised. I guess when a person spends more than a year on a game and when they make it their profession to create and program game software, a person can be a little sensitive to criticism in their work. Knowing me, I probably would have lost control as well.

The game crashes for me too, so I don't think that it is a Windows configuration problem on my system that is causing it. I'm not having problems with other games I'm playing, so you have a point Yin. Luckily, it crashes very rarely and I can never duplicate the conditions in order to recreate it for Firaxis. All I know is that it has something to do with Terran.exe.

Jeff: Although I understand how you may feel about criticism on a game you worked so long on, I hardly think that Yin was interfering with your ability to troubleshoot problems. Although, he may have been interfering with your ability to swallow your pride and fix the problem at hand. It is obvious that you're trying to find a reason to scare a critic off of your forums by trying to show that he is effecting your ability to do your job. I'd be interested in hearing you explain exactly how he is actually accomplishing that by dissagreeing with your diagnosis.

posted 03-05-99 09:01 AM ET         

1. SMAC support by Jeff has been exceptional. Unfortunately there are many permutations of hardware/driver/Windows versions and Windows still crashes on demand even with Microsoft Apps - some crashes DO occur because the underlying hardware and Windows don't meet the specifications listed. Overall SMAC is a remarkably stable game in the context of other newly released games.

2. From what I understand of the background of your post, you personally don't have a crash problem - you have taken it upon yourself to criticize Jeff's response to others. Who appointed you Tech. Support Manager? I completely agree that Jeff's time is better spent dealing with people who have actual problems rather than your fake issues.

posted 03-05-99 09:27 AM ET            

The issue is one of people who spend their times on this forum solely to detract from the enjoyment of others (either by flaming the game or flaming other forum users). There *is* a difference between criticising the game and saying simply "it sucks, i hate it".

Also, I see nothing wrong with Jeff being too busy with helping customers with actual problems and in overseeing the testing of patch 3 to offer a lengthy discussion of his "Windows v. SMAC perspective". Realistically, what do you expect from us?

posted 03-05-99 09:28 AM ET         

Right now, you are being rather rude. People don't like being called idiots, or other elementary school insults, and it's really rather childish that you need to resort to that just to get your "point" across.

I'm sure you're merely a troll, but my final message remains the same.

You appear to hate SMAC, that's fine, Yin, no one person is forcing you to like SMAC. However, if you're a little ignorant, this is a SMAC forum and so you can bet that there will be some people supporting SMAC here.

posted 03-05-99 10:02 AM ET            

The entire design philosophy behind Windows 9x is 'don't let the user know'. For example, did you know that if you install, say, Office 97, you're also installing a service pack? Several core libraries are updated, and you have no idea. But then older programs that actually used bugs in the old libraries stop working. It's very odd.

And as to the hardware support, do you have ANY idea how many pieces of hardware *claim* to be windows compliant, but aren't? Haven't you ever wondered why MS specifically posts a list of hardware that's supported for their corporate-aimed Windows NT? Because that way, if you call up and say 'my 12 dollar sound card is locking up my windows NT', they can say "Is it on the list?" "well, no..." "good bye." With windows 9x, however, any old idiot (quite literally) can download the specs from various places, make something, and claim it works. For example, I can go to Intel.com right now, download the PCI 2.1 spec, go to the VESA website, download a few VGA and SVGA specs, make a vid card in my garage, sell it, and claim it's fully windows compliant. Then, some poor bastard who writes a program, makes a standard call that my card doesn't understand, crashes the system, they get blamed.

SMAC is surprisingly bug free. If you show me the ultimate Windows program that is BUG FREE, I'll show you a 'standard' system configuration that it won't work on.

posted 03-05-99 10:21 AM ET         

One of the most important reasons that I have stuck it out so far is the impressive job that Firaxis has done with these forums. Well done Firaxis !

- However - When Chris Pine replied " In fact, we have had about *one tenth* the amount of bugs as most shipped games have. ", I damned near fell out of my chair !! I have not been this insulted in many a year - not only does he insult my intelligence, but he greatly demeans the integrity of these forums and those of us who use them.

posted 03-05-99 12:10 PM ET            

I make my living (and have for years) writing software for the Windows platform. One thing that I have learned is that end users are absolutely horrible at identifying how buggy a program is overall. I will explain why in a second -- first let me say that this post in no way suggests that bugs are OK, that end users are stupid, or that some bugs are worse than others. I am only trying to explain why Chris could be correct (other than the fact that he has access to the actual bug list).

The first reason is that end users mistake frequency for the number of discrete bugs. If something happens every time you open a window of type X, and you open many windows of that type, then you will see the same bug many times. Relationships between software components are not always obvious to the user.

The second reason is that the seriousness of a problem to an end user is proportionate to that user's use of the functionality afflicted with that problem. For example, I never would have noticed a problem with the automatic terraforming, because I never used the automatic terraforming. If my whole strategy depended upon it, though, and it were the only bug in the game, then I would still see the game as very buggy.

The third reason is that "bugginess" is a perception. People have naturally high expectations for any game put together by Sid and Brian. Few games are held to as much scrutiny.

The fourth reason is that some computer systems are incompatible with some software. That is a FACT. I know it is a fact because I have run into the problem many times in the past, where a single unique configuration option, DLL or hardware component causes logically flawless code to start misbehaving. I could NEVER get Star Wars: Rebellion to work on my home computer, and had to take it back (not that it was a great loss...). I have not had the same problem with any other game. If you happen to have a "bad" machine, then you are effectively screwed, and the game will be buggy to you.

The fifth reason is that sometimes end users do not understand functionality. Frequently, this is the fault of unclear design or poor documentation, but equally as frequently, it is the result of somebody not READING THE MANUAL. I have seen many postings that say, "Is this a bug?", when it wasn't, and I am sure that there are users who don't post such questions even though they have them.

The sixth reason is that many more bugs are "common knowledge" when companies like Firaxis open up public forums like this one. Some bugs may only be detected because two people in the forum are discussing a problem, and one says, "Hey, that happened to me too, only it was with BLAH." Without the connection, the bug would have been impossible to reproduce or isolate.

The seventh reason is that some people do not understand the definition of the word bug. For example, if you want your television to be cable ready, and it isn't, and the manufacturer never said that it was, your wanting it to be so doesn't mean that the manufacturing is flawed. It means that you bought the wrong TV. Likewise, if you live next to a nuclear powerplant, and that screws up your reception, that also is not the fault of the TV manufacturer, because it could not have been anticipated.

Finally, bugs are both reported from the outside and generated from within, and there is no way that somebody outside of the company can know the volume of bugs that are detected internally. Some developers send code to quality assurance before they have even tried to run it ONCE. This is stupid, but I have seen it happen. Firaxis obviously does NOT do this.

posted 03-05-99 01:51 PM ET            

Again, I didn't want to talk about any one person's system. I was talking about actual bug counts (ours as compared to other games). I don't see that this is really refutable without evidence to the contrary, which you simply don't have access to.

posted 03-05-99 03:05 PM ET         

First of all I also don't wish to offend anyone either. Discourse such as is available in these forums can only lead to improvements in the games. Believe it or not, we all want the same thing and to achieve the same goals. I also have been coding for quite a while within the windows platform and have seen the change over the last ten years or so. [Why microsoft came out with '98 anyway I cannot imagine(still lots of issues with '95),but that's neither here nor there].

I guess that I'm just venting because(after tracing down all those bad op-codes), I just get so dang frustrated ! I will be the first to admit that I had high expectations for SMAC - As I feel I have a right to with any game with the SID stamp on it.

I'll shut up now and let Firaxis do what we are paying them to do - improving the game.

Jeff and Chris - you guys are doing a good job in these forums - keep it up. !

posted 03-05-99 03:21 PM ET         

However its my firm belief an error that occurs in a game/application/OS deserves an explanation/fix/workaround or something, hence my 2 cents. (not sense lol)

Jeff has helped me with 2 issues here and for anyone to help with a technical problem, you need to give them all the information you can and then hope they have seen it or can recreate it.

Yes there are issues that arise with the game and the operating system that can easily be explaned as the typical 'their problem' or 'its a microsoft' issue etc, and as customers we need to understand this.....To a point, IF there is an issue with a game and a operating system (especially if its an operating system that is approved for that game..here win98) I would hope the developer would at least be open to working the issue OR at the very least if it is code outside their ability to change or workaround, just say it on the forum and let people decide themselves what to do then......Jeff/Chris I think we at least deserve that.

Chris, I'm not sure you meant it this way, but to say this game had less bugs than others that were released and therefore makes this a solid game, is disturbing. Yes I love this game and it has had few bugs, but games stand on their own and its not the amount of bugs, its THE bug itself that determines it......small bugs people can overlook, a game with a SINGLE runtime type bug could ruin the game. It probably just came out different or I read it wrong....but as the manufacturer i'd hope your always striving for bug-free (yes impossible to attain, but still a good quality goal) and then fix on the go.

posted 03-05-99 10:01 PM ET            

"Sure, I don't know anything about windows, and programming it must be a nightmare for you. But I pay your salary, so fix the problem. You've got six minutes."

Yin's attitude to problem solving is probably the least helpful method ever invented. There is a certain type of person who thinks they can fix anything (especially if they don't understand it) by complaining about it. The more they complain, the faster the problem is fixed. That person is a two year old.

posted 03-06-99 02:14 AM ET            

SNIF SNIF

posted 03-07-99 03:08 PM ET            

So be it he used bad language (cant say I am much better normaly) and so be it he has posted this treat on every place in this forum.

He should anyway get his oppionion to speak.
(freedom of speach) and so be it this is a company controlled forum.
If the admin thinks by moral standards he shouldnt ban(or whatever is going on) yin26.

I have just seen some of the post and dont know all the sides of the story , so this is only based on what I have allready seen..
And if all of it is true , what can I say...
Yin26 is right , all the rest of you sissy boys scared of beeing banned yourself ..wrong...

*Note , this is wrote by a 16 year old Norwegian school boy...and I got better moral standards than you...duh!!

Oh yeah - I got a homepage about Alpha Centauri :
http://www.alphafan.com

posted 03-07-99 04:14 PM ET            

"The reason I base this on is common sence (sic) and on moral standards."

"So be it he used bad language (cant say I am much better normaly) and so be it he has posted this treat on every place in this forum."

I'm sorry? How does using bad lanuage and mindless spamming entitle you to claim better common 'sense' or higher moral standards? Yin26 has only proven that he is a whinging idiot.

Freedom of speech is a two way street - Yin26 is allowed to be a whinging little child, and we're allowed to disagree with him. Moreover, Yin's comments amount to little more than an abuse of this privilege, as he has said nothing construtive at all in his postings.

Remember, Jixin, this is NOT a public forum, it exists soley for the benefit of the Alpha Centauri team, as a means to gather widespread feedback about the game. Yin's behaviour has not contributed that at all (in fact he has been quite a negative influence). As such, it comes as no surprise that JKM has very reluctantly threatened to ban him.

[As for being banned myself, I haven't even considered the possibility. I believe Yin26 is the first person to even be threatened with the idea. And look how he reacted... ]

posted 03-07-99 04:55 PM ET            

<<
Because "you" have your morals , and "you" should follow them , even if someone is an asshole..
One wise man said:
If someone hits you on your left cheeck , turn your cheeck the other way.
Im not sure it was exactly that way it was spelled but the moral is , if someone is an asshole you should still try to be friendly as you would to any other.

you wrote:
Freedom of speech is a two way street - Yin26 is allowed to be a whinging little child, and we're allowed to disagree with him. Moreover, Yin's comments amount to little more than an abuse of this privilege, as he has said nothing construtive at all in his postings.

<<
If its constructive or not is to each person to decide (i dont think it is) , but what does that matter?
That shouldnt be a good reason to ban him!
In my "Oppinion" by my "Moral standars" ..

you wrote:
Remember, Jixin, this is NOT a public forum, it exists soley for the benefit of the Alpha Centauri team, as a means to gather widespread feedback about the game. Yin's behaviour has not contributed that at all (in fact he has been quite a negative influence). As such, it comes as no surprise that JKM has very reluctantly threatened to ban him.

<<
Do you think it is common behavor to treaton someone ...public or not ..because someone has said ugly things to you...in my country you would be arrested for that...
If this isnt public then what is?
If a firm suddenly decideds ..hey we want other laws than the rest of the world. can they?
`Nope...
Humen rights , and the laws of the country still apply ..if its public or not..

You wrote:
[As for being banned myself, I haven't even considered the possibility. I believe Yin26 is the first person to even be threatened with the idea. And look how he reacted... ]
And as for the sissy boy thing (you patronising german wannabe...), I'd happily take you on any day . VERY happily. Just give this Kiwi the chance...
<<
Man ...how old are you?
Thats so childish ...
Patronising german wannabe???
Que??

Btw:
I think you have many good points too ...its a fine line between who has right...
And one thing i didnt like ...that he spread the topic to all the forums (guess it was to get attention) but I didnt like it...

posted 03-07-99 05:34 PM ET            

But dont come here and say he should be banned beacause of saying jeff was a bad program or whatever he said..
I strongly belive in free speach therefor I am taking the time to reply all the time.
Its not because I belive in what yin26 says..
(I dont)

posted 03-07-99 05:38 PM ET            

Well atleast I can comfort myself with the fact that I deared to say something...
Free speach must be..

And if its a fact that I have been banned...
Man...Firaxis just has lost one fan...

(I hope not this is the fact)

And if it is , and there is someone watching this topic:
I am not trying to undermine you firaxis ...I saw the topic yin26 wrote ..tought he was right and replied...then I got dragged into this argument....

(maybe Im just beeing paranoia?)

posted 03-07-99 05:53 PM ET            

Please note the following [It's the statement to which you agreed to get your password] :

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Notice that use of posting privilidges confirms your agreement to this statement. Also notice this excerpt: "we at this BB reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever." I'd argue that this excerpt implies the right to prior restraint: that is, if they can delete what you've said, then they can stop you from saying it in the first place.

Please remember that this site is the property of Firaxis. You have no claim whatsoever to it.

Also, jinix, I'm not sure which country you are from, but since Firaxis is in the US, the US Constitution applies. According to it, restriction of freedom of speech is forbidden to Congress. In the twentieth century, the courts have intrepreted the Fourteenth Amendment to mean that state and local governments fall under the same prohibition. Never has "no restriction on freedom of speech" been applied to a private individual or organization, only the government.

The best analogy for this situation that I can think of is this: Say that I am a newspaper editor. A particular person sends me many, many adamant letters on a topic about which he feels strongly. I am under NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to publish those letters. It would be my newspaper to publish as I see fit. He would have no claim to my column-space. Likewise, Firaxis is under no obligation to allow you, me, yin, or anyone post on their boards.

posted 03-07-99 06:29 PM ET            

D'ya wanna explain the sissy boy thing, then?
And I'm 21, which certainly doesn't preclude me from behaving a belligerant fashion at times.

Chalk it up to 'cultural differences.'

As for your postmodern idealism, I don't believe in it. People get judged by *other* people's standards, not their own. It doesn't matter that Yin26 considered himself to be in the right (which he almost certainly did), what matters is that the way he went about it irritated a lot of people, firaxis included.

posted 03-07-99 07:33 PM ET            

All you experts in the Windows OS can write me pages and pages of code to show me what an idiot I am, but that only proves how truly sad our situation is a computer gamers if we are somehow better off learning about all the reasons our games don't work.

Now, am I being a bit idealistic when I say a top-dollar game should work on every machine--sure. But shouldn't that be the goal? When did we all become so used to these bugs? And why do we defend companies that want to patch us to death and blame Windows?

Before the Internet, a game essentially had to work to your acceptable level or you returned it. That simple. True, I spent countless hours tweaking setup files, boot disks and all that other crap because I was desperate to get the game working--so I'm not saying we were better off without the net. Patches are great, but they've become the standard, not the exception--and I think Firaxis should avoid the trend.

I apologize to everyone here for posting this on all the forums. That was a bit much. I was also angry when I wrote one of my replies--which is not a good idea.

If many of you are simply resigned to a buggy game world where game designers raise there hands and yell "It's not our fault," I can see that's one way to deal with the problem. Another way is to let these companies know that a growing number of us are sick of $50 Patchware.

And I agreee this is not a matter of freedom of speech, since Firaxis can ignore or ban its fans all it wants.

But for every very tolerant person on this forum, a growing percentage (just a guess, I don't have the numbers) is taking the game back because few games--and certainly not SMAC--are good enough to justify losing hours of gameply to a bug Firaxis claims was ours in the first place.

posted 03-07-99 08:29 PM ET            

Many other people are having similar problems with SMAC - I have less trouble with it that you, by the sounds of it, but I still find some parts of the game are not 100%. And yes, I do accept this, because some of the problems seem to be a result of my outdated drivers rather than the game itself (and the game itself IS very good). SMAC is a technologically ambitious game, and, unfortunately, it seems you are paying for this.

As for fixing SMAC, well, I found that if you do a FULL install, with the Low Res Caviar, you get much better performance. Also saving your game regularly seems to help, for some reason.

posted 03-07-99 08:40 PM ET            

Now that you've cooled off, I think I can talk to you. [I prefer not to talk to angry people -- also the "freedom of speech" rant was not directed at you, nor did I mean to imply (although most probably inferred) that I though Firaxis should ban you, just that they could if they so desired] [If a sentence with so many parenthetical comments made sense to you, you're a great reader.]

I personally have had no problems whatsoever with SMAC [I play on a Compaq Presario laptop 1655]. But I understand completely your frustration at whatever your perticular [sp] technical problem is. And I am also one to those horrible apathetic gamers who passively tolerates bugs, swearing to never again buy a game without reading several reviews, and doing so anyway.... I also agree that bad software is rampant throughout the industry and that something fundemental in the industry must change.

However, I don't think you were justified in venting your frustrations so ... ubiquitously. You should have chosen a more tactful way of dealing with this [as should have JKM]. Except for the out-of-character threat [we really have had much worse hecklers than you, and Firaxis has generally dealt with such problems with a policy of "if we ignore them, they'll get bored and leave"], I think JKM's response was an understandable: "feel free to criticize but in the appropiate place". That is, "THe Game" instead of "Trouble Shooting" forum.

I hope that this difficulty between you and him can be worked out to all of our benefit, and that whatever system conflicts keep you from enjoying SMAC can be worked out.

Sincerely,

posted 03-07-99 08:53 PM ET            

Thanks for helping me not take myself and this game so seriously--it's hard, though

Since you guys metioned your systems, here's mine:

Micron 450
128 MB RAM
Diamond Video (16MB)
Sound Blaster Sound
All the latest drivers from the Net

Do I understand it correctly, then, by saying there seems to be a bit of a Catch-22 (great book, btw):

If your system is out of date: problem because we didn't write the program for such a system.

If your system is cutting edge (well, my system is new and updated anyway): problem because we didn't write the program for such a system.

Am I missing something?

posted 03-07-99 09:14 PM ET            

Heh. Have you tried reinstalling? Seriously, it does sometimes fix problems.

Other than that, it might be you Micron chipset has 'errors' that SMAC will not tolerate without a fix.

posted 03-07-99 10:02 PM ET            

I know for a fact that the Sound Blaster Live does not have DirectX certified drivers, for instance. So don't be fooled by the fact that "SB" makes it good.

posted 03-07-99 10:32 PM ET            

I have been sitting on the sidelines watching this thread develop. At this point, I think that all of us, including Yin, agree that he could have and should have handled this differently. I think Yin's mea culpa shows him to be a fair minded person who took things a little too personally and let his mouth get out ahead of him. Believe me Yin, you have plenty of company in this area including myself. In fact, especially me.

However, I am equally disturbed by the lack of outrage at the comments from the Firaxis staff. No, I'm not talking about the flippant remarks from Jeff that he "doesn't have time" as I think he fell into the same trap as Yin. Rather, I'm talking about Chris Pine's statements that we should all feel indebted to Firaxis that they got rid of 90% of the bugs. BTW, this is the same mentality and justification that Ford used back in the 70's when they knowingly released the Pinto with defective gas tanks. BOOM!!!!!

As the owner of my own business, let me share a little something with all of you. If you send away 10% of you customers because you have not satisfied their needs, You will not be in business very long. Regardless of price or product, most business survive on profit margins less than 10%. How many of you rump kissing Firaxis sycophants would buy airline tickets if the plane got you to your destination only 90% of the time? How many of you would be returning your new cars under lemon laws if they only worked 9 out of 10 days? How many of you would have knee surgery if the doctor figured it was ok to cripple 1 out of 10 patients? The bottom line is that if you put your name on a product or service, your only goal should be to deliver a 100% quality product to each and every customer. If you don't want to do this, you should give back your paychecks because you're not earning them.

At this point, the numerous problems and bugs show me that SMAC is not a 100% product and Chris has finally admitted as much. If I can pick out terraformers that run in circles in the first three hours, anyone can. Well, maybe except people who write reviews for gaming magazines!

IMHO we have what we have because Firaxis made a calculated business decision to rush this game into production.They are now reaping the criticism for it. Unfortunately, it also appears to me that Firaxis may be looking and not hearing as I have not come across a single comment from the staff where they concede a single player criticism. Rather, I only see excuses or patronizing psychobabble that I'm having trouble "suspending my disbelief". But I guess that's also ok as long as they have all of you blind mice to tell them how "SMAC Rules".

posted 03-07-99 11:11 PM ET         

However, I too am one of those "rump kissing Firaxis sycophants."

Yin, dunno about you, but I've seen bugs in games before the internet was born.

I myself am a little different from Borodino or those sycophants out there because I'm not rump kissing nor immune, it's just my computer is REALLY crappy and is prone to crash all the time anyway, so I don't really notice or care anymore

uncleroggy:
Nice speech, really, but in reality not everything is perfect all the time. If I really noticed, I suppose I might be angry at Firaxis once and awhile. But heck, I think that's what the autosave was for. I turn my computer back on, stop swearing at the screen (well, I might keep doing that for a few minutes) and then get on with my life. If they patch it, well great, if they dont, oh well.

Really, I just don't care. I HAVE grown used to it, whether by freak circumstance of constantly buying really crappy machines or just tolerance. I've played games far worse, I mean FAR WORSE, than SMAC. Here's a great example: Ultima Online. Perhaps the WORST game I've ever played. Buggy, glitchy, constantly reminding you that's it's full of bugs, and worst of all, the tech support was even worse than the game itself.

Really, it may be some sort of insanity, but it's no longer a matter of whether the bugs are there or not but rather a matter of how they're handled. Believe it or else, every game nowadays has bugs. For better or for worse, it's true. Maybe you're new to games or something, uncle, but that's the way it is and has been for quite awhile. I think it's great Firaxis is even bothering to patch the thing, period. Firaxis is not brutal to its programmers, forcing the poor Top Ramen and Mountain Dew powered guys to scroll through the text endlessly to find every nook and cranny. BUT Firaxis has been good enough to force them to do taht after bugs are found. Trust me, uncleroggy, but I've seen cases far worse, than this, I've even been insulted by companies after reporting bugs, or suggesting a fix.

posted 03-08-99 12:53 AM ET            

As a bit of background, I have been in the industry for 10 years, have performed rolls as an analyst/programmer, Lan Administrator, and PC/Lan Support for over 100 users in an area the size of the US (yeah, Australia is that big). So, unlike most "dumb users" I have a bit of an idea what I am talking about.

Please explain this to me, as I am absolutely dying to hear your explanation...

posted 03-08-99 01:40 AM ET            

I think a better way to approach this question is perhaps from a wider perspective:

Is there ANY game on the market putting similar demands on software and harware that apparently works for all (certainly 95%+) users off the shelf?

Now before you stop me here, I must first raise the argument that comparing two different games is an apparent apples and oranges situation--but it raises my fundamental question and comes back to why I posted this topic in the first place.

LucasArts, for example, has a solid reputation for solid game performance across various system configurations. I personally can't recall SMAC-like crashes on any LucasArts game (but, of course, other people will point some out and maybe jog my memory). But I think it is more than fair to say that there is a great discrepancy between companies in these terms. And yes, Chris, Firaxis is pretty good compared to the rest of the market--but much of the market it pitiful, so such a comparison is dubious at best.

As far as I can see it, then, companies as seemingly talented as Firaxis make a conscious decision to "push the envelope" or rush to market. I don't have your experience, Brother Greg, but I'm willing to bet my Commodore Vic20 with 4k tape drive that Firaxis ABSOLUTELY COULD HAVE designed a game that was stable on far more systems from that first magical moment the shrink wrap is torn away. Sure, they might have had to tone certain things down, or they might have needed to delay release a few more months.

But they didn't. Instead, they released a game that has generated more than a minority showing of lock-ups and sound problems. Now, they want to patch us into submission.

If you can convince me that making a stable product is simply impossible, you might have a case. But Firaxis either didn't do its homework and is now in a state of shock or they knew and discounted these problems, simply pushing SMAC on us knowing they could always clean up the mess via the Net.

Either way, big mistake.

posted 03-08-99 03:24 AM ET            

In the first series of games, up to Specialist level, I never encountered a halt. But since I've tried Librarian (and simultaneously Ironman), this has happened in two games.

In the current game, it was fine until some time after 2300, but then the game froze during the Peacekeepers turn. I know they're (probably) responsible, because I turned on the Scenario Editor before I hit End Of Turn. When I deleted the PKs the gane ran OK. Also when, before EOT, I Set myself to play the PKs, their turn works OK too, and is fairly quick! It's only when the AI plays the PKs that the game freezes.

I've saved the game immediately before the EOT before the PK crash, so it should be easy for others to determine whether the savegame causes problems on their machines. I intend to email it to Firaxis tomorrow.

The Scenario Editor reveals something else, which will sound familiar to many who've played Civ2: when you turn over your faction to the computer, the AI changes the social engineering (of the UoP in this case) to Free Market and a wonderfully high Research rate with lots of money, makes tons of troops, and spends zero on Psych, which would be great except that the faction instantly goes to rack and ruin! There are Drone Riots in every city!

I know that the AI suffers drone riots too, so I really don't understand how it prevents this disaster, unless it's allowed to intervene in the same turn but _before_ the cities riot! Whereas, as we know, the human player only gets to provide input _after_ the cities have done their thing and the riots have erupted.

Librarian's supposed to be equitable, but that is definitely not fair.

posted 03-08-99 05:24 AM ET            

Fewer than 90% of the planes I've been supposed to take in my life have reached their destination.

posted 03-08-99 07:19 AM ET            

Anyways , SMAC is a great game and I hope it will continue to be so.....

posted 03-08-99 11:26 AM ET            

I'll address your second point first. Firaxis determined a target market for their gaming system before implementing their game. If they didn't, they know nothing of business and marketing and I don't think that they are that foolish. As such, they know which systems, drivers, and the like that are held by that target market and it is their responsibility to structure their software to meet the needs of those systems. I. E. direct6x drivers. Therefore, by implementation of the associated software, they assume the responsibility to make it work. These are the same principles that you and I follow when we drive our cars regarding the safety of our passengers. BTW BG, I would just love to see your response to the dealer if you buy a new car and it doesn't work because the fuel pump won't pump gas. Hey, it's not the dealer's fault that the fuel pump can't read the instructions from the car's computer! Just push it over to the fuel pump guy and have him fix it. If you wouln't accept this from a car dealer, then why do you make a never ending litany of excuses for Firaxis?

Now for your first point. I for one appreciate your experience as it provides for many of us a technical insight to these problems. However, you also keep trying to find technical justification for something that is really a common sense business issue. I think I am justified in saying that there are hundreds or even thousands of people for each person like you or me. By and large they will install and play their game and you will never hear a peep as to whether they liked it or thought they bought junk. The problem is that it is Firaxis' responsibility to make their gaming experience as enjoyable as possible and a 90% bug free game just won't do it. My business is life insurance. Would you buy a policy from me if I told you that you only had a 90% chance of your claim being paid? I hope not.

Finally, my bug problem appears to be one that many others experience. I have a PII,200MhZ, 24MB system at home and I have a PII, 366Mhz 128 MB system at work. These computers are identically configured and I run dozens of programs and games including many that use the directx drivers and I have never had a problem on a single piece of software. EVER! Therefore, I feel justified is pointing the finger of accountability at Firaxis. BTW, have you noticed that many of the problems voiced on these forums are on pretty good quality systems?

To those of you at large.

1) Bugs are crashes, lockups, death loops and the like.

2) Poor game play is autoformers that run in circles and bombers that don't perform their automated bombing functions.

3) Cheats are a lazy way to make a game harder rather than implementing a better A/I.

Borodino, I can only say with your luck that I wouldn't be on a plane on 01/01/00.

And to those of you who have resigned yourselves to buying poor quality software. You have my envy because you are obviously so rich to throw your money away. However, you also have my pity as you should join a spine donor program. After all, why don't you give your backbone to someone who will use it.

posted 03-08-99 04:56 PM ET            

One little point that seems to keep cropping up in this forum: People who compare computers to simple 'real life' problems. Uncle's car, Fredmoss' typewriter.

Now I must say, while it's nice to see some people with at least a vague grasp of the ancient art of metaphor (or, like, simile, dudes), this kind of oversimplification doesn't help one bit. Computers are highly complex machines, there are a lot of different types, and they have almost 0% tolerance for mistakes.

posted 03-08-99 05:10 PM ET            

Firaxis design a product to work on Microsoft Windows 95/98 and/or NT, running DirectX v3.0 or later. They do not make a game designed to run on faulty video or sound drivers. And therein is the whole fallacy of your argument, and of your example with the car.

A better example would be buying a car, then expecting it to work perfectly at 100 mph on a road full of potholes. Obviously, if you try and run it on faulty or defective media, you will get problems. And just you try and take it back to the dealer or the manufacturer and get a refund. Fat chance.

Running other programs frankly means jack in this case. Baldur's Gate ferrinstance utilised calls that barely any other program had ever used, and had major problems on systems with supposedly "good" drivers, which were exposed as being useless because of this game. Obviously Firaxis are pushing the envelope a little bit in this case, but that doesn't mean that you can blame them for your faulty video or sound drivers. Do you blame Ford for potholes in the road?

Instead of whingeing at Firaxis for implementing a game that utilizes all of the functionality of video and sound cards, whinge at your video and sound card manufacurers for distributing useless drivers. Blame your local government for the poor quality of the roads, not the car manufacturer.

As for Yin's comments, I would just like to ask him one point: Can you point out me ANY game that runs perfectly bug free on any PC, all of the time, and has NEVER crashed? Show me that, and I might agree that you could create a game that never crashes. Because, frankly, such a game does not exist, due to Windows being a pretty buggy OS, the proliferation of crappy hardware, and the proliferation of crappy drivers for crappy hardware. You think Games are the only things to do with computers to need patches? No, I have NEVER seen a piece of hardware that has not needed a patch.

Now, if the game did not run stably on any PC, I would agree that it would be crappy hardware, but there are a growing number of people that are saying that it runs fine all the time on their PC. If there were bugs in the game, this would be IMPOSSIBLE. It is not as if hardware can compensate for faulty calls to DirectX. Take my word for it, it cannot be done. So, until I hear a logical explanation as to how this could occur (and I honestly don't believe there could be one), I will go with what I know to be facts.

posted 03-08-99 07:08 PM ET         

You seem to have missed a major point, I am not super-rich and I can't fling money at poor quality games. And I do have a spine.

However, on the contrary, in REALITY games just have bugs. And demanding that Firaxis or every company get EVERY SINGLE bug out for the game and release it modestly is completly unrealistic, uncle. I don't EXPECT companies to make perfect games that are 100% bug free, I have never seen a 100% bug free program, maybe you have, but I have yet to see one. Therefore, I am not resigned to being a spineless monkey, but rather, accepting anything which is acceptable by today's standards. Wherever you come from, maybe it's different, but the standards of today where I come from are not 100% bug free. Far from it. Firaxis has done a reasonable enough job for me. Other companies have shown much less resolve than theirs (as I noted before) and therefore, I can live with it and find something better to do with my time than start a holy crusade against program bugs.

posted 03-08-99 07:30 PM ET            

Basically, we don't know 100% what is causing the problems. I'm not certain firaxis knows 100% what is causing the problems. All you can do is report ANY bugs you experience to JKM in the support forum (have a saved game illustrating the error handy if possible, right JKM?), along with your system specs and any other details that might help.

Secondly, update your drivers if you haven't done so. Yin26 claims he has fully up to date drivers and still gets errors, so this might not help (this leads me to believe that some problems might be game software related). At any rate, it can't hurt.

If you can't accept that meeting software with bugs in it is a part of using a computer, go watch T.V. This is the unfortunate reality we live in. But this whinge fest, especially so early in the piece, isn't helping anyone achieve anything (even Yin has acknowledged this, apparently).

P.S: B.G - I'm curious about Baldur's gate. It ran very badly on my system. What was your problem?

posted 03-08-99 09:18 PM ET            

I shall quote for all of you from the requirements listed on the US version carton.

minimun system requirements
pentium 133 mhz or higher
16 mb ram minimum
60mb free hard drive space

other needs
directx 6 included on the cd
4x cd-rom drive
ms compatible mouse and keyboard
directx 6 compatible video card 2mb
directx 6 compatible sound card

I now have one simple question for you great and worldly smacophants. How is a person at the time of purchase to know if they have a puppy poopy sound or video card? I guess it was too much to ask to let people know that appreciable problems will result due to these incompatibilities and perhaps to list a few cards that won't support the system. You see where I live, you cannot take software back due to the piracy problems.

BTW greg, we are smart enough to post roadsigns letting people know about potholes so they don't have to wreck their cars and I see no reason why Firaxis can't do the same. In addition, your analogy of doing 100 on a road of potholes makes no sense because Firaxis assumed the responsibility to maintain the road when they marketed the software.

In addition, some of you apparently feel that I have a singularly focused crusade for Firaxis to rid their game of bugs. Actually the answer is no. Firaxis has merely rushed a buggy product and I'm sick and tired of having to reinstall the game to make it work. I will now list for you smacophants the games that I have purchased in the last 18 months that have run flawlessly on my systems.

operational art of war
age of empires
age of empires expansion pack
civ ii
civ ii gold ed
imperialism
conquest of the new world
caesar iii
lords of the realm
lor ii
lor ii siege pack
battleground 1
bg 2
bg 3
bg 4
bg 5
bg 6
bg 7
east front
west front

and probably 5 or 6 others that escape me at this point. Many of the games use the directx drivers(especially the talonsoft bg games) and I have never, I say never had a single lockup or other bug. I guess the only thing I'm guilty of is being stupid enough to keep trying to get my SMAC game to run as it should.

Shining1, unless you kiwis are still using ox drawn carts, your car has an onboard computer that is capable of doing most if not all of the functions necessary to process game information. Given that, it is fair to compare on a technical level. However, the point I was making is based on whether you have a reason to take pride in the product you sell. It amazes me to no end the tolerance that is exhibited towards lousy software and yet those same people would not tolerate any of these problems if it was any other good or service. How would you like it if your local power company only provided power 90% of the time. The bottom line is that a 90% goal is lame and chris pine got a good kicking from me because he made a moronic excuse.

posted 03-08-99 09:33 PM ET            

Do Ford guarantee to maintain the roads? Of course not. And can Firaxis be expected to test the game on every PC, and list cards that may or may not work? Of course not.

As an aside - show me ANY game that does what you ask for - warns that if you have dodgy peripherals, then it may not work.

As for the Pride issue, they DO take enormous pride. They work to fix problems that ARE THEIR FAULT. No game company out there will work to fix your faulty hardware, I guarantee it.

posted 03-08-99 09:42 PM ET            

For this to work, your 'car' would be able to run smoothly on one road, and then, for no easily explained reason, suddenly crash on another. And the reason for this might well be that a single piece of unexpected or non-standard gravel was in the way.

Furthermore, your car would be virtually required to use a certain type of tyres, despite this brand having been found to be the cause of many crashes.

Okay, you can make it work - eventually. But I still think it stretches the imagery too far to be useful. Though I definitely agree that metaphors are an important part of illustrating ideas.

posted 03-08-99 10:18 PM ET            

Hrrr. I'm going home to wallow in my outdated drivers and low powered system (leastways until I can steal a Zip drive off the CSC for the weekend).

You people make me sick...

posted 03-08-99 10:25 PM ET            

If my case was so childish as you say, then why are you so vitriolic and timely in your responses? In fact, you are as predictable as the A/I in this game and it is your pontifications that prevent you from understanding that not everyone is a cs major or systems analyst. As such, those people have a reasonable expectation that their platform should work if their game meets the system requirements listed on the box. Mine do, so why do I have my problems?

Regarding customer service. It is Firaxis responsibility to support their software. Hey einstein! why do you think they loaded the direct 6X drivers on the CD? In addition, I have had several situations where I have had a problem with my system(broken power supply and modem) and the respective hardware and software manufacturers provided dilligent, timely and courteous support. They didn't reposte with flippant answers and they certainly didn't come across with the "hey idiot, it's somebody else's problem" attitude that you find so handy. I'm sorry I'm a dullard, but even us dullards need some help sometimes. On the other hand, we don't need smacophants making excuses for the party line because they think that the solution to all the world's problems is updated driver cards that we already have. I seem to remember your notable silence when Yin26 listed his system. I'd say it was a pretty good one.

Shining1,

Thank you for confirming the fact that you kiwis no longer use oxdrawn transport. I was last there in 82(which probably makes me old enough to be your father, oh boy) and you all were still just developing the wheel. I therefore naturally extrapolated carts or chariots as the common means of current transport. Ha! Ha! Ha! (I don't know how to make those smiley faces).

Now on a more serious note. I think it fair to say that Firaxis tested the game on enough platforms to confirm which boards would support their game. Otherwise, they wouldn't have listed the direct 6x compatibility issues. As such, the printing of the truth prevents any action that is considered to be slanderous or libelous. Case in point, you could print that uncleroggy is fat and bald on the SMAC box and I would not be able to sue as both of these are true. (BTW, please explain to Brother Greg that this was an example of self deprecating humor)

Second, I am confident that my problem does not reside within my drivers as my better system is only 6 weeks old. I don't think that I would be so confident in this case if I only had my lesser system to look at and that is not the case. Finally, I see no logical reason as to why my multitude of other programs that flawlessly run on both systems using my existing cards and drivers will only crash on SMAC. Any reasonable person, except perhaps brother greg, would be able to plainly see that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

posted 03-09-99 04:09 AM ET         

I still give SMAC a 99 rating, because of the intelligence and depth of the design. I've never seen a game that came anywhere close in terms of the range of possible creative strategies.

posted 03-09-99 10:49 AM ET            

being mostly a lurker in these forums, I now feel urged to take a stab at knocking some sense into your head after Brother Greg have resigned to your hardheadedness (is that a word?).( paragraph)

First of all, I understand your frustration. I have a different angle than programming or insurance, namely hotline and onsitesupport in 170+ employee government office i Denmark (according to some surveys the most "computerized" nation in the world) and I'm here to tell you that your attitude towards the expected functionality of software in general (and SMAC in particular) is a common one, at least among the users I'm servicing.
It is evidently very hard for people outside the computer business (and quite a few at the higher levels IN the business as well) to understand what programmers and supporters around the world are dealing with EVERY DAY behind the user interfaces that are most peoples only view of any particular piece of software.
I'ts sorta like when peace activists who dodged the draft tells Vietnam vets what they should and shouldn't have done back at the Ho Chi Minh trail("How could you throw that handgrenade down there killing a dozen women and children?" "Because I has been shot at and mined out of nowhere for a forthnight and that kinda brings out the paranoia in you, not to mention taking away
a good part of your natural goodnaturedness. But I don't expect you to understand that")
: You may have a point looking out over your cup of herbal tea, but....YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT'S LIKE OUT (or rather in) THERE!
Not to say that your expectations isn't valid at first glance, but you have to look at the conditions:

Fact 1) A computer is a almost impossibly complex apparatus hardwarewise alone, making any other consumer product including cars look like little more than fancy potato peelers. And there is a constant stress to achieve bigger, better, faster, more in a tempo that never cease to amaze. That Moore's Law still applies is quite a feat in itself.

Fact 2) Most software, especially in the game segment, is built on maiden ground, insofar as functionality goes, because the sharing of code between game companies are still in its infancy. Essentially the wheel is reinvented all of the time, partly due to a wish for total control that can only be accomplished if you code everything yourself, partly due to competition paranoia ("Wow, check out this amazing new way to address gric glitches i 3D-animations! I'll be sure to keep it to myself, so that I'll have a edge over the competition..now, if only I could nail the sound glitch problem as well as its done in SmurfSofts GagamelAttack I'd have a killer game...now where did I put that C++-manual..." It's well worth noting that breaking with that kind of thinking is what gave us the PC and set off Bill Gates to become the wealthiest man in the world)
I support mainly standard office installations with the usual apps installed: MS Office, Mail, Oracle-database, Internet on a Digital server cluster, setup specifically for maximum reliability. And I have no problem with too much idle time. Even these standard apps on something like 5 different PC-models, all brand-names, cause a continual stream of gliches, lock-ups, illegal operations, BSD's and whathaveyou. As anybody in my business will tell you, rule #1 if you want to keep your system stable is to install as little as possible on it, as every new piece of software will add to the chance of something tripping up something else. Not what the tech marketing people will tell you, but then they sell dreams and visions rather than reality, as you may know.
Note BTW that most of these corporate programs, some rather complex granted, are developed my huge companies (mostly MicroSoft and Oracle) with huge development and QA teams and development budgets orders of magnitude bigger than what Firaxis can possibly muster, being a relatively small and new independant development house (check out the credits in the game, looks more like a oldfashion family business to me).

Fact 3) There is NO game like SMAC around except for the Civ-family from Microprose which was getting so outdated (and maybe even copyright-restricted, I dunno?) graphics and code-wise that a complete rewrite of the underlying engine was necessary. No small feat, given the complexity of the game (complexity which in turn is generated by immensely high expectations to the developers of the Mother of All TBS, Civ. Face it, we're not an easy crowd to please)

Given these facts and adding to them the manpower used to maintain the website, sort out the suggestions made for game features and having a (minimal) life away from the computer, I think Firaxis have managed quite nicely, though of course there's things that I would have liked to be handled and implemented differently. The fact remains, I've never had a better time waiting for a game, even if it WAS delayed quite a bit and Firaxis Team member visits were scarcer than I first anticipated.

The mistake you make, Uncleroggy, is confusing text book economy with real life. Your various utterings sum up to one point: You feel that you - or those who cannot get their game to run, whoms cause you want to fight for, I haven't quite grasped that yet - have been wronged by Firaxis and your sense of justice demands that Firaxis be punished by the market on that account. I assume you're a die-hard liberalist, you certainly have a religious attitude towards the laws of free market. Only problem is, most people here are actually quite happy with SMAC, either because it runs (reasonably) flawlessly on their machine or because they weigh whatever problems they have against the pleasure enjoyed while playing SMAC (and contemplating new strategies while shopping, bathing, shaving yes, even making love ).
That's the market for you! I think eating at McDonalds is in itself a demonstation of hopeless disregard for one of the finer arts of life, gastronomy, and moreover a stupid thing to do for several more reasons. But that will never cause me to stand at the door to one of the restaurants, questioning peoples ability to make their own choices or MacDonalds ability to predict those choices. Clearly, I must be missing something that other people like and so are you.
So, acknowledge that the people at these forums are capable decision-makers in their own rite, stick to constructive criticism and stop lecturing us about what to do with our bone-marrow! The market says you're wrong!

Curtly, but not downright hostile

OmniDude

posted 03-09-99 12:09 PM ET            

Actually, it's a good thing thay you don't make your living trying to determine people's ideollogy. In reality, I'm about as fiscally and socially conservative as they come. Economically speaking, I'm basically a free market guy who feels that each and every person or company is individually responsible for their actions and I hold Firaxis to no higher or lesser standard than I do myself. I'm not a religious zealot either.

Regarding your technical issues. Please do not presuppose that I am a technofool based on my current occupation. I was making aircraft disappear from the radar screen while you were probably still collecting allowance and I have a masters degree in Chemical Engineering and a minor in Materials Science. Therefore, I feel well qualified in understanding and commenting on computer and electro-mechanical problems with this background. As a personal note, I left the engineering world because of the whimpering "I can't do it" and "it's not my responsibility" corporate attitude that is so prevalent in this thread.

Now, since so many people want to misconstrue my arguments I will quickly list them once more. I will try to use small words.

When Firaxis or any other company makes a product there are certain implied responsibilities that automatically exist. For example, when you buy a car, you are not only buying a motor, tires and seats, but you are also implicitly buying that each of these sub-systems work properly and in coordination with each other. The particular problem I have with Firaxis is that I and numerous others have systems that meet the memory, hardware and driver configurations listed on the box and yet our games do not function properly. Therefore it is not unfair to hold Firaxis responsible for remedying these problems as I do not have access to the source code. In any event, I wouldn't know what to do with it.

BTW, for all of you who do not understand this still. Does a baby come with a set of instructions or system requirements? No, but you still have to feed it, change it's diapers and otherwise take care of it. Now, I also know that not all babies turn out just right. But does that mean that you don't love them as much or neglect them?

Finally, what is equally frustrating to me is the smugness from the Firaxis staff given that they admit there are numerous bugs and the never ending litany of sycophantic apologism and vitriolic attacks leveled at people like me for voicing valid concerns. It usually goes like this:

Statement
Provide Proof!
Proof provided
No, thats not proof, you're just a whining, sniveling moron and how dare you say anything negative about the greatest game ever made
numerous insults both ways
BG runs away mad

Personnally, I find these attitudes expressed in this fashion the most disturbing. Most of you would sue a cereal company for putting a crappy toy in the box, but yet you give a free ride for the software companies to put out unfinished products because you can get a patch. I would have loved to see the Air Force's response to me if one of their F-117's showed up clear as day on a radar screen and I told them not to worry about it because we were working on a patch. The bottom line is that it makes no difference what the product is.

posted 03-09-99 12:17 PM ET         

I can't say I'm terribly impressed with the support.

The game doesn't crash very often on my machine. But, on one occasion I sent a saved game to the boys here at Firaxis, that would ALWAY crash to the desktop when one specific unit of mine would attack a very specific unit of Yang's (public enemy numeral uno).

The response was very similiar to "It didn't crash on my machine. Here is the saved game a turn later."

Now, I was happy for the responce but its content worthless to me. They didn't even ask for more specifics. I can't help but feel put-off.

Before you bludgeon me to death, I understand that the sales figures for this game are, A lot. And its difficult to help everyone. But it doesn't appear to me that they(Firaxis) are seriously cataloging individual's problems with intent on seriously squashing the "little" bugs not seen in their prerelease qual testing. If they are then they certainly did't imply it in their response to a paying customer.

Still like the game though.
P.S. sorry Omni

posted 03-09-99 12:25 PM ET            

A couple final points as I just re-read your post.

First, the only ones to do the preaching are the likes of BG and I guess now you.

Second, I have limited my criticisms to be both valid and constructive. I have even tried to use numerous examples so that I was not misinterpreted. However, through a Smacophants rose colored glasses, all criticism is apparently invalid and unjust.

posted 03-09-99 04:53 PM ET            

Frankly, I was having a civil discussion with you. You chose to see that as me being a sycophant, and sucking up to firaxis. I don't take **** like that from people, so rather than lowering myself to your level of abuse, I withdraw from the argument. Frankly, abuse and counter abuse gets one nowhere, and I personally couldn't be bothered making unfounded character attacks on people that I know nothing about.

So, please, if I insulted you, and gave you cause to insult me back, please show me where. If you can, I'll gladly appologise, however, I always try my best to keep my arguments civil, and if you knew any of my history on these forums, I also always walk away from people who reduce themselves to petty character assasination.

If someone slaps me on the cheek, I will turn the other cheek. If they slap that cheek, I will walk away.

If you chose to see that as me throwing the towel in on the argument, then that is merely your misunderstanding, and your continued insults certainly will not win you any friends, nor will it win you any arguments.

posted 03-09-99 05:34 PM ET            

Buying a computer game these days is inherently a risk - not usually a major one, but a risk none the less. I believe this answers your point about Firaxis's supposed 'implied' responsibility to produce a product that works on every possible combination of drivers, chipsets, and windows installation errors.

You accuse the 'SMACophants' (oh, bravo) of having rose tinted glasses? Maybe you should take of your own blinkers and see the reality of the situation.

Personally, I loath the 'It can't be done' mentality with all my being. On the other hand, I dislike the 'fix it NOW, moron. NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!' attitude as well. I accused Yin26 of being a whinging child. Perhaps I got the wrong person.

P.S N.Z in 82? You poor bastard. I forgive you completely for the ox and cart thing. As for being old enough to be my father ("oh boy!!! A bald fat engineer! Pass us the footy, Da..."), you're 5 years and in all probability 1000km off. And the wrong shape HA HA HA.

posted 03-09-99 06:21 PM ET            

* Please explain the baby thing? Are you comparing computers to babies? Or SMAC to a baby? Huh?

posted 03-09-99 06:34 PM ET            

I'm flattered than you found my posting valid enough to reread. I'll extend the same curtesy to you, adressing a few of your earlier points:

First of all, no bad feelings over the spine comment, I'm glad you're not beyond reach as far as misplaced hottempered viciousness goes. I guess we're all tarred by the same brush in varying degrees.

Your first mail in this thread started out very reasonably, with tolerance towards both sides. What got me in that was the analogy you made between a apparently famous car defect from the 70's (being an european I wouldn'e even recognize a Ford Pinto if I saw one) and the computergame at hand. I find the analogy faulty on several accounts, (some of which may have earlier been stated by others but anyway):

a) Dependancy on the work of others .Most people buy cars in one shot, that is the whole car with everything necessary to operate it (I hope you agree that maintenance is beside the issue here). Software, however, depends on hardware (including interfacing, i.e. firmware and drivers) to provide a reliable platform on which to operate. Of course a car consist of several subsystems, but these are built to spec by subcontractors, so the car manufacturer retains full control.

b) Potentially danger of usage.
Cars are designed for transport at relatively high speed, making the usage of a car a potentially dangerous - even lethal - action. Given this, one can and does naturally expect that the car should not be a health hazard to drivers and passengers in itself. SMAC on the other hand is pure entertainment, and should therefore rather be compared to a toy (though this raises other analogy problems and gives a somewhat less than satisfactory association to SMAC). Now if my recollections of the modus operandi and average lifespan of the toys I had as a kid is anything to go by, toys are not lessons in functionality and durability by a long shot.

c) Major price difference. If we were prepared to shell out $5000+ on SMAC, I'm sure Firaxis would be able to develop a product that would meet almost anyones expectations. Almost, because even high-end programs like the AutoDesk and Adobe software product lines have bugs. There aint no such thing as a bugfree program

If a analogy to SMAC should be valid, SMAc should come preinstalled on your PC (so that Firaxis made the game tailorfit to whatever hardware the PC manufacturer choose to use), be the only thing that you could use the PC for and any bug that might appear should be likely to result in a powerful electric shock administered to the user. Given these terms, I think we could depend on Firaxis - and most other developers for that matter - to supply us with a product as bugfree as they could possibly come.
Should they fail to do that in this situation, THEN the PC manufacturer would surely find another subcontractor in accordance with your conception of how we should all respond to the bugs evidently present in SMAC). Different situation, though.

As for your 10% unsatisfied customers spelling the death of your company, I wish you were right. However, the people who make the products advertised in TV-Shop ads and your average mailorder catalogues live (well) to tell a different story.

As for Brother Greg, he have been a valued debater and member of these forums for 6 months+ and on numerous occasions demonstrated his ability to conduct a discussion in a proper manner. It appears that your temper/attitude probably prevents you from experiencing how giving it can be to participate in such a discussion where you are actually able to change your mind about something in the face of the better argument without choking on your pride.
When BG packed up because he didn't like the personal insults, you stated that he was the one who started it. That isn't true. Even your first posting refererred to those not sharing your POW as "rumpkissing Firaxis sycophants" and "blind mice". Now that may have been the way to get your point across if you also have a career as a drill sergeant in your apparently long and adventurous past, but it is getting you nowhere fast with people who like to think for themselves and are quite able at it too (of which the crowd here at the forums mostly consist, believe it or not).

posted 03-09-99 07:01 PM ET            

I'm not defending any smart comments to Jeff from Yin. But about how the game performs - it all comes down to this:

Obviously, many users feel the game don't function well on their computers. Many, many more who don't write in this forum has surely had problems too. They have probably never(read rarely) experienced such problems with other games. Do they have the right to feel angry? Or should they feel it's their fault and take courses to learn to understand computers? All they wanted was to play a game, and a good game should function well on more computers than this game obviously does. After all almost all games released from quality companies does better than this(but I'm sure you can point out a game that doesn't)

Maybe you think those arguments are crap? Listen to this then...

In the end, and no matter what you all say, Firaxis will lose on all this. Do you think they wanted their game to run worse, without special modifications, than other games?? Do you think they wanted their average half computer-ignorant customer be upset that the game doesn't work?? In THAT sense at least, it must be a bad game for them (read: their reputation).

posted 03-09-99 07:30 PM ET            

Anyway, about the only thing I tend to disagree with is your assumption that there are "many, many more" people out there with problems, that Firaxis never hear about. Generally, you tend to find on forums that the most vocal people are the ones with bugs, and IMHO, I tend to think it is more likely that people without bugs are the ones staying away from the forums. I know that if I were having problems with a game, I would be on the forums in a flash, stating my problem, so I could see about getting it fixed.

However, all of this is speculation, and there's no way to prove it either way.

On your other point, I agree that it looks bad for Firaxis if the game won't run on people's PCs. Anybody that buys such a game will be annoyed. Look at Daggerfall, and the crap Bethseda copped from that. The difference being they had very bugy code.

So, really, the effect on Firaxis is really dependant on how many people are having problems vs how many bought the game. And I think we should agree that there is little way to exactly determine this. Going by personal experience, of my friends that have bought it, numbering about 7 or 8, none of them have the crashing problem experienced by some.

In the end, if people have bugs, and don't report them, Firaxis have no real way of determining how big the problem is. I am sure that if enough people complain enough about it, they will HAVE to think about doing something, even if that something is a way to disable the features that are causing problems on people's PCs. Because, as you stated, if it won't run on large numbers of PCs, they will get a bad rep.

However, I have yet to see any evidence of that. There are only 970 posts total in the Support and Troubleshooting forum. Now, even if there were one post per person, that's only 970 people with bugs that have bothered to report them (unless they're being silly, and posting them in another forum). So, I would call 970 people a pretty low number.

Having said all this, yes, I do still agree with you in principle, that ANY PC that it won't run on reflects badly on them (because mostly, the consumer can't determine for themselves where the problem lies, and get annoyed when the answer they get isn't what they want to hear). I do disagree however with the assumption that this is happening on a LOT of PCs.

However, as I said before, there is no way to exactly measure the numbers. All I can do is go by what I see, and frankly, the 970 people is actually much smaller than that, because they have lots of posts from the same people, and approx 1/2 that number are replies.

posted 03-09-99 07:54 PM ET            

Thoughts, Comments: I take issue with your assertion that the number of complaints is unrepresentitive of people who may have had bugs. Many people may simply have become frustrated and sold the game, other may have stuck it on the top shelf and left it until they upgrade their system, others may just have sent emails complaining about the bugs.
Merely because they haven't posted on the Support forum doesn't mean they don't have a problem.

Having said that, I don't know how many people own the game as of 9.3.99, but I suspect that the number with severe performance problems is more like 1-5 in a 100 than 10%. Of which many more will have problems that can be solved by upgrading video/sound drivers. (This is not a reason for Firaxis to ignore those of us with problems, but on the other hand, we should also be patient in letting them be fixed).

Freddz: Your argument was reasonable, level headed, concise, and contained no personal attacks. It doesn't belong here.

posted 03-09-99 08:16 PM ET            

Still, all we can do is guess at the numbers of people with problems, so I'm not going to bother arguing that point with you. You might be right, I might be right, or Freddz might be right. Who knows?

What would you suggest as a solution though? About the only solution that I could see is for them to allow the disabling of certain features, which are causing the problems (assuming they can actually determine which specific calls are causing the problems). This would mean pretty major rewrites of the code though...

Now, if that is what it takes, then maybe they will have to look into it. But, I do see this as a last resort, and I also see this as a sad last resort, if they have to remove features, just so it will run on everyone's PC (when in fact, it could be fixed by decent drivers).

posted 03-09-99 08:30 PM ET            

Evidence
- the sound for the Hive (on my machine) plays hideously. The sound for the spartans is beautiful. If bad drivers and/or chipsets were responsible, I would expect there to be more consistancy with the errors.

- system crashes usually relate to doing things that piss off windows95. Granted, there are lots of things that can do that. But ultimately, if its a software vs. software problem, I hope it can be resolved.
Especially if its just a matter of the game tying up memory that windows wants for itself - i.e which could lead to crashes on low performance machines.

- the game does contain some other notable bugs, such as the incorrect farm display and the infinite range PBs. Obviously, they don't affect the stability of the game. But they do indicate that the code hasn't yet been dusted with a fine tooth comb.

You seem to believe the game problems are totally the result of incompatabilities with system drivers, cards, etc. I'm not 100% sure that this is the case...

posted 03-09-99 08:58 PM ET         

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

posted 03-09-99 09:04 PM ET            

"Idiot" AND "Rude"

What message, by the way?

posted 03-09-99 09:54 PM ET            

I am so sick and friggin' tired of all of you people.

This thread used to be a comment on censorship.
It devolved into an argument to whether this game is good or not.
Now, it's down to character assassinations.

�BG: you've been pretty polite so far. which is more than i can say for:
Unclerrogy: ok, i have a few things to say to you.
�First off, if you want people to take your arguments seriously, and have them answer you back, you don't go around insulting them. The same rules of real life take place on online communities. the only difference is that the people here won't give a hoot whether you combed your hair or not.

Simple rule: People won't talk to people who insult them.

�2) While some of your points are valid, the method of presentation was a bit lacking. see above.

�3)to all of you defending SMAC: get a grip. your life does not depend on this game. i love this game as much as you people do...but i am at least willing to listen to these people.

�4)to all of you with complaints about smac: you get a grip as well! we aren't smacophants (at least, the majority of us aren't), and it seems as if you want us to think you're smart - but when you insult people with "big" words with bad puns, it doesn't really make us feel you're any smarter; rather, it makes us feel as if you are deprived in some manner. please, if you're going to get your point across, don't insult anyone.

�Yes, SMAC does have problems. Yes, Firaxis could have waited longer and ironed out all of the bugs. Yes, I would have liked some added features. No, i do not want a 3d world. No, i don't think Sid and Jeff and Brian and Chris are all idiots, or whatever. They're human, and we should thank them for at least producing a game that we can enjoy (well, most of us, anyway).

�If you don't like the game, get rid of it, and for heavens' sake, tell firaxis why you don't like it...but go easy on the swears, like TAFKAFP says.

�I like the game. Honestly, i do. It works flawlessly on my system, save for the fact that it eats up a lot of hard disk space (by with 7GB, what's space?). I'm sorry if you're having difficulty, but you can't expect all games to run flawlessly everywhere. Caesar III won't work on my system - the sound messes up, and the the game freezes. Do i go and flame Sierra? No. I go to their site, look at the faq, download patches, and if that doesn't solve it, i send a nice, reasoned, and POLITE email to [email protected] or whereever.

posted 03-09-99 10:46 PM ET            

1) Brother Greg- I too am happy to see you back. Really! However, I did not appreciate your trying to make me feel like a moron(I really don't want to go thru the mess of pulling it all up) for voicing valid criticism. I chose to respond in kind and that was equally bad. Can we just get along?(Rodney King, 1991) I apologize.

2) For those of you who took offense to the "rump kissing Firaxis Sycophant" comment. First, I did not throw this name at any individual person. I'll eat my hat if I did. Second, I think that I clearly explained this monaker applies to people who instantaneously rush forth to shout down anyone who would say anything other than SMAC is the greatest game of all time. If you thought the shoe fit you, then that's your fault and maybe the taste of the truth doesn't always taste too good. I found that out and retracted an inappropriate comment and I think that some of you should do the same.

3) I had a couple of nice discussions with Chris Pine today and he for one understands how frustrated some of us are with problems that just don't make any sense. He apologized for a smug response and I apologized for using him as a whipping boy.
However, his admission of these problems invalidates about 50% of your attacks as they cannot specifically state where the source of the problems reside. Touche! However, I do believe that Chris is committed to solving every possible problem and I am thankful for that.

4) Shining1- If you're a kiwi, how can I be off by a 1000 miles. Do you live in antarctica? Oh no, I see it now, you live in that penal colony! Australia isn't it? No wonder you gave up using "u"'s. I'll be sure to send you a copy of that Tom Selleck movie "Quigley down under". I'll only do it if you promise to send me back a case of Toohey's new and four meat pies. BTW, I think I'm getting the better deal. Hope you don't mind.

In all seriousness, I would have thought that you, more than anyone else would have understood that I was using a literary technique to intentionally overstate things through the use of a colorful phrase like smacophants. After all, I think that you use the english language far better than most of the rest of us. That's even including your overuse of a paticular vowel!

However, despite my use of flowery adjectives, I think that I have a valid point that a number of people who have attacked me based on "they decide therefore it must be" have done so purely because they have no problems so none can therefore exist. Also, I think you did me a slight injustice by trying to put words in my mouth that I was saying now, now now. I am merely pointing out two things. First the responsibility for service. This is no longer debateable per my discussion with Chris. Second, that it is improper to call someone stupid because they have a problem and you don't. Don't worry. I'm not expecting an apology, just send the meat pies.

Omnidude- The mean part of me wants to tell you to go back to lurking. The nice part of me wants to say that I gave you back a dose of your own bombastic and insulting comments and I won't be sending you any self addressed stamped envelopes for any humility. You're the one who dogpiled on me with a pompous attitude that you know everything about software. With all that pontification you still didn't address the single crux issue that if everything within my system is nominal, then why does the game lock up. I guess you were too busy making value judgements about my politics and religion to try to understand a point made. Regardless of whether or not you thought it had any merit. In this case I'll apologize if you do, but don't send any meat pies or beer.

posted 03-10-99 12:02 AM ET            

No, I was simply referring to the tendancy by some overseas travelers to visit Auckland, stay there a week, take that as the best the country has to offer and on leaving declare N.Z a ****hole that nobody in their right mind would visit. Knowing Auckland, I can see where they're coming from - but the Aucks don't represent the rest of us.

1000km south (granted, I didn't specify south) puts you in South Canterbury, within a stones throw of some of the world's best scenery and the nicest, friendliest folk in the world.

As for the rest of your message - I do apologise if I inferred that I thought that you were stupid. Argumenium ad Homenium (sic) is never a good idea, as Brother Greg has tried so hard to point out.

I'm not sure I'd trade even a single meat pie for a Tom Selleck movie though, but you can have all the aussie beer you want (you make a good choice in Tooheys, BTW). If you want to eat such things, lobby your senator for increased free trade around the pacific rim - there are loads of people just dying to sell you all manner of excellent produce, at (mostly) reasonable rates.

And I'm happy you seem to have reached an understanding with Mr Pine. I'm not sure my arguments are really invalidated, as I have argued that the game itself has bugs, as well as noting that some issues may be affected by out of date drivers (especially on my own system!). Don't get me wrong, my version also has problems, and I do expect a total fix to be forthcoming - eventually.

Use of lanuage? Why thank you. Though you have some notable overusages of that wonderful fourth vowel yourself - "Myy Fullow Amerucians..."

As for SMACophants, you really should talk to Imran Sidduqui . And I don't think you can claim entrapment of those who object to it (myself, for instance), when you post a message 'Dear SMACophants' and then reply to a previous post using my handle.

posted 03-10-99 12:58 AM ET            

Actually, you found me out. I was only able to see what stuck out over the groundfog. Spent 3 weeks in New South Wales though. Loved it. Tried to take as much beer out in my kidneys. A "schooner of new for you too".

posted 03-10-99 01:43 AM ET            

HEY! Even in jest that sucked! There all faults in SMAC, but there were bigger faults in Civ2! Take that back, Shining! I mean it!

posted 03-10-99 07:28 AM ET            

After rereading my own postings I think that I actually have addressed the core problem, namely whether Firaxis is doing their job right within reasonable expectations or not.
I also got caught up in the way the issue was discussed rather than the issue itself. But to me - and most others here if I'm not mistaking -it's pretty important that a certain standard is held when discussing in these forums, otherwise it becomes a pain to filter out all the garbage and go mining for meaningful arguments in the postings.

Having read through the postings since you entered for the third time, I'll maintain that valid counterpoints have been made by various posters to refute not so much your stance towards the performance of Firaxis, but rather your way of voicing it.
When you refer to these as "misconstrues" and conjure up a image of everybody getting personal with you because they don't agree with you, your bound to stir up some trouble.
I have extrapolated from your reactions that it really gets to you when people patronize you (like you perceived Chris to have originally, not entirely out of the blue). I have sympathy for that, believe me, I hate being patronized myself. But I have learned that if you put forth your stance with an attitude of your view being the undisputable way of looking at any particular subject, then you are the one being patronizing and rightfully at risk of being treated to a bit of your own medicine.

Incidentially, I'm glad to see that Greg is back and and there's a noticably lighter tone in your most recent postings.

I'll admit that my speculations about your political stance didn't come out the right way, as a european I'm used to think in rightwing-leftwing rather than the american liberal-conservative. What I meant was that as many americans AFAIK, you exibited a tendency to promote market mechanisms to a moral codex:
"The bottom line is that if you put your name on a product or service, your only goal should be to deliver a 100% quality product to each and every customer. If you don't want to do this, you should give back your paychecks because you're not earning them." Well, I have yet to see any company or person in the mass market succeeding in reaching that goal, if for no other reason than the fact that customers have different demands.

posted 03-10-99 09:05 AM ET            

I gave up reading most of the stuff as all I want to do is respond to yin26 and Firaxis.

1. I'm sick of bugged games, most notably Fallout 2, Sin, Baldur's Gate etc even though I have played them through to completion and still enjoyed them. The point is: Why are we getting bugged software? Console software is released without anything like the problems we PC users have to suffer. Why? We can patch our software, they can't. If the developers released the software when they wanted to, this situation would be, most likely, barely worth mentioning. It sux, but people accept it cos patches inevitably come out.

Or do they.....

I think if all you people who accept this buggy situation would feel less happy if you were in my shoes...try living outside the U.S and have to wait endless months (Fallout 2) for a Euro patch.

I've given up being angry about it and I shall wait stoically for the patch. But when the biggest game purchasing nation rolls onto it's back when a situation arises that, if in any other industry, would cause uproar, what choice is there?

2. I work in the Tech Support industry and if what Yin26 quotes is true, then maybe Jeff needs some time off? I would hope this method of dealing with customers is the exception, not the rule, as it has damaged a good reputation.

Just thought I'd add my opinions which is a forum is about I suppose...and no one should be persecuted for them, especially a paying customer!

I shall continue waiting for my patch, and then I'll be in a position to truly comment on bugs, on top of the ones I already found for my TNT, surely a video card which should have been tested thoroughly?

posted 03-10-99 09:23 AM ET            

1) Console games have to work only on fixed specification hardware. Developers don't have to deal with hundreds of different video cards, CD-ROM drives, sound cards, etc.

2) Console games do not have to work under the Windows 98/NT operating systems. Windows breaks software down into component libraries and scatters them across the hard disk. Different versions of these files can have drastically different effects on software. The drivers for the plethora of hardware mentioned in #1 are included in this category.

3) Nothing else runs on your game console when you play your game. There are no virus checkers, screen savers, MS Office toolbars, print controllers, etc. You don't have to worry about accidentally overwriting a memory location that includes part of your operating system, or having some of your game's code in RAM being overwritten.

4) Your game cartridge or CD on a console will boot cold off of the media. There is no complex installation to a hard disk required. Installation is where a lot of software goes wrong.

posted 03-10-99 11:49 AM ET            

Scorebaord Baby! Kings 4, Red Wings 2
Unfortunately we're still 7 points out of the playoffs, but we now have a 1 game winning streak under our belts!!! Good start on a long road.

Now for the details. Unfortunately, I will have to lump a few things together in the interest of time.

I have found my bug! No, not in the game but in understanding and communicating with some of you. I found in another thread that Brother Greg is from the UK and correct me if I'm wrong, so is Omnidude. My problem is that I have been trying to communicate in dollars and sense instead of schillings and pence! Eureka!!!!! This also explains why Shining1 agrees with me agout 65% of the time. It's the conversion from US to Kiwi dollars that keeps it that way.

Now that I have my new found understanding, I will apply it to the discussion at hand.

Omnidude, you are exactly right that I found the attitudes of several to be patronizing. Yours included. You don't need 4 letter words to be insulting and I certainly didn't appreciate it. In regartds to my comments, you may have considered them too direct, poorly exampled, insulting and a bit profane. Patronizing NO. I was not the one running around saying that I knew everything about computers(and everything else)and preaching that everyone else should accept what I said as gospel. In actuality, I ask you to reread my comments and you will found that I stuck to a couple of simple points.

1) Why are people permissive to rushed, buggy and unfinished software when they would not accept those qualities in other products.

2) Why do the aforementioned people choose to attack the people who actively pursue a quality product.

3) Criticism can be valid regardless of whether or not you can see the validity of the argument.(A real good example here is that slavery was long in vogue in my country)

4) Just because you don't have problems doesn't mean that no one else is. Don't shoot the messenger.

5) Just because you think you know the answer, doesn't mean that it is the answer. Case in point that Firaxis is not sure where the incompatibilities lie.

6) I promised I wouln't pick on Chris anymore so I won't. However, customer service doesn't mean kissing fannies, but it also doesn't mean kicking any either. You will have big problems if the public perceives that you are not 100% committed to your product.

With this said, I was only trying to raise valid questions and to expand thinking on them. For the record. I by and large like SMAC. Not as imaginative as I would have credited Sid and Brian as capable of doing, but pretty good. I have resigned myself that the only way to make it work on my systems is to save the game during long turns and to reinstall the software as needed. Fine. But that also doesn't mean that I am wrong in pointing out that a software manufacturer is aware of those potential problems beforehand and that they can and should take steps necesaary to eliminate them. Both pre and post release. As such, you know what the stability issues are and it is your responsibilty to resolve them for people who don't know how. Nuff said.

Q Cubed- Thanks for the dogpiling. Before you go and write a book on internet edicate you might want to reread your Own comments. I for one found them to be equally patronzing and rude as anything that preceeded them so stop preaching to the choir. BTW, I found it especially refreshing of you to drop a few put downs and then run in the corner and hide by saying that you only wanted to have constructive discussions. PATHETIC! Bravo on doing a good job of putting yourself above the fray!

The next time you want to show everyone that you are better than me, you might start by actually being better than me. Judging by your put downs, I'm pretty lame and it shouldn't be that tough.

posted 03-10-99 11:49 AM ET            

I also work in the computing industry (or should I say "undustry"?) and if its one thing that's constant, is that everything changes. I look back and see all the comparisons of the economics of cars and airplane tickets and whatnot, and none of them are useful in any way. The economy of the computing industry is different on SO many levels its not even funny. Its moving far too fast to compare to any other type of industry period.

There's an old joke that goes round, if GM built cars like Dell built PCs, they'd go a million miles an hour, get a million miles to the gallon, run environmentally clean, and cost 5 dollars this month, 4 dolllars next month, and 2 dollars in six months. They'd also crash frequently, fail frequently, and you'd have to get patches and bug fixes every month or so. I did a horrible job on that joke, but you get the idea.

There are many things different about the industry on a whole that I would never consider either the hardware or software market as I would consider other markets. For a good read, check out Gamespot's "Problems with Game Publishing" article (or was it GameCenter?). It basically outlines WHY its so damn hard for start up game dev companies to get a chance on the market. Did you know that to get shelf space in retail stores the publisher HAS to agree to buy back ALL copies of games that don't sell?!? People say we aren't harsh enough on game companies... well, we got a whole different set of standards for them.

That's why I laugh when people EXPECT a game to be bugfree. Completely. Its not possible. Go ahead and cite examples of the twenty odd games that work where SMAC didn't. I'm more than willing to bet if you uninstalled and reinstalled in a different order you'd get a different answer. I'm willing to bet that if you reformatted and reinstalled everything from scratch you'd get a different answer.

The world of computing is already a vast place so that the number of possible hardware AND software configurations is larger than the denominator in the chance to find life on another planet (ie 1/<insert immense large number here> ). Not only that but the industry moves so fast standards change all the time, rules of configuration are broken every hour, and there's no real way of administering the whole freaking mess. To force a single software company, no to mention the lot of them, to take on this bloated and horrific attempt at an industry to conform to these laws that by their very definition change daily is absurd.

Now I truly wish we lived in a bugfree environment, and I believe that the glut of crappy games and half-assed products is due to most of the public's inability to understand quality in terms of computing (that term also redefines itself almost daily as well) and that our industry is so new and moves so fast that the rules get changed or thrown out too quickly for anyone to cope with. I'm simply amazed at the quality of some games compared to most others.

For the record I've installed SMAC on four different machines, and none of them have crashed while playing FULL games (even multiplayer games). Does this mean anything? Hell no, maybe I'm lucky, or maybe the years of training where I attempt to install everything flawlessly the first time and have a set rulebook for building machines give me a better chance not to crash, or maybe its something else. Everyone's results are different.

I wish I had seen a crash. Terraformers work perfectly if you merely AUTO-IMPROVE homebase. Personally I'd rather my Formers didn't go wandering across my territory. My only complaint is that I think a lot of the Governer modes are just on crack (In Build mode with four structures unbuilt and my city is building rovers?!?!) and that I think the boundaries often get set unfairly to the AI. But out and out bugs? Nah... haven't seen anything else.

Anyway, I sort of got off my topic. My main message is I believe that attempting to write bugfree software in the PC industry is a moving target... its like predicting the weather or predicting the future... there are TOO many variables. The best you can do is make an incredible attempt at making the best possible guess you can. You can never truly hit the mark... but you can get pretty damn close. Its our job as the consumer to help companies get closer and closer to that mark, and not buy the crap that the cloners shovel at us.

posted 03-10-99 06:50 PM ET            

Being serious, I apologise, I was outta line.

Uncleroggy: Actually it's more like 50% for me and 60% for Brother Greg, using current exchange rates (dude, you have a weird cents of humor, too... ).

Just my own curiousity, but what in fact did Chris have to say to you about the problems with the game? Any specifics relating to Opti sound or Cyrix ("piece of crap") chipsets I'd be VERY interested in .

posted 03-10-99 11:03 PM ET            

Thanks for setting me straight. Also, thanks for blowing up what was probably going to be a fairly decent bit of humor. I bet you're the kind of guy who shouts out punchlines at the comedy bar. Will somebody please tell me how to make those smiley faces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, to the person who posted prior to Imran since I forgot to write down your name.

posted 03-11-99 08:46 AM ET            

first of all, why do you stick to the hostile attitude, even when the rest of us try to bring the tone up to a more civilized level? It may be an asset in your current line of work - I've heard systematic intimidation works as a sales technique if you do it right - but I now understand why you left the "whimpering" engineers behind and my guess is that they whimper less now that you're gone.
Secondly, your degrees in whathaveyou or experience with anti-radar systems does not tell me anything about your PC proficiency and if you really think that it selfevidently makes you just as competent in judging what's possible or realistic in the wonderful but chaotic and often frustrating world of PC setup and troubleshooting, then you exibit a lack of respect for the professionalism of others that I find deeply disturbing.

Granted, the installation of a game on a PC ought to be a simple matter, but as GirDraxon states there are too many variables to ensure 100% glitch-free operation on every gamebuyers machine.

Finally, I'm from Denmark (and I'm dying to see what you'll make of that).

May you sometime find peace in your heart.

posted 03-11-99 10:44 AM ET            

I want to touch on six things.

1) Thanks for more put downs. All you need to do is look in the mirror to find the definitions to the words self-rightous and arrogant. You try to act polite, but are far more demeaning and rude than I could ever hope to be. At least I come straight out with it, whereas you try to couch it in important sounding words. Why don't YOU try addressing one of my valid questions instead of putting down my politics and religion?

2) Please stop trying to attribute to me things that I'm not doing. I have no idea what systematic intimidation is unless you are referring to my statement to Q3 that you pointy headed intellectual types are just as rude as someone who uses four letter words. BTW, you and Q3 are two slices cut from the same loaf.

3) The only thing I can say about Denmark is that you folks sure don't understand humor. I have intentionally kept my postings on a lighter note since I'm sick of being preached at by people like you. The notable exception is the Q3 comment previously listed. Obviously, your dislike of me keeps you from seeing anything valid or funny in my posts.

4) Stop putting words into my mouth. I have never denigrated anyone in the industry. I can factually state that buggy products are rampant in the marketplace and I am trying to raise consciousness as to why we allow it to happen.

5) I didn't start the intellectual shingle argument. You did. People like you try to treat the computer industry as if it is some magical and mystical thing that the common man cannot understand and that we owe you a debt of gratitude for what you do. That's a crock! I merely responded to your intellectual putdown to let you know that some of us aren't as dumb as you think. In reality, your job is no more important than mine or my gardener's for that matter. Why do you consider it insulting to ask someone to do their job right if they collect the paycheck?

posted 03-11-99 05:25 PM ET            

And not really my place to reply, but the economics of stopping and taking enough time to do things often tend to frighten people. Especially when it's getting bloody hard to see where your next budget is going to come from. *sigh* Unfortunately you have touched on the real trouble with the engineer/artist vs. employer relationship, an argument which could easily take up another 100 post thread.

It's all about the balance, finally. Any writer knows that they can always come back and make a few changes for the best, but eventually you'll have to make a judgement call and let the thing go.

That, ultimately, is at the heart of this argument. Did firaxis let their project go out too soon? Or would any of this have been helped by another month of Brian's iterative developement process?

posted 03-11-99 05:58 PM ET            

I leave for a week and look what you people do!

posted 03-12-99 10:18 AM ET            

OK, we're getting clearly not getting anywhere with this debate. You have your view and I have mine (which incidentially is the right one... ).
Therefore I'll end my postings in this thread with this final response and try to bring things back on track:

As stated earlier we are alike in one respect: Patronizing REALLY ticks us off. I'll maintain that you were the one starting the trend in your very first posting in this thread ."Rumpkissing sycophants", "blind mice" and the general tone along the lines of "let me share a little something with all of you".
Not only did you come off sounding very superior, you didn't confine yourself to go for the Firaxis support team in your criticism, you went for those content with Firaxis performance regarding bugfixing as if that stance was utterly undefendable. When they responded, at first politely ignoring your namecalling, you (maybe unintentionally, but still) upped the ante until you got everybody annoyed. And now you feel like a hunted innocence?

As for the intellectual shingle argument, as you so adeptly put it, I don't agree that I started it. When I presented my profession it was merely to offer a median POW between yours as the consumer (which was all I knew you to be) and the programmer (BG POW could be questioned, being a programmer and therefore naturally inclined to be more understanding to Firaxis' predicament) but that's really not the point.
I wholeheartedly agree that products meant for the consumer market should naturally be operable by the consumer. Unfortunately, reality in the computer business isn't so though it's slowly moving in the right direction. To bring it on par will take a enormous coordinated effort by the entire industry, which is not very likely seeing how fiercely competitive companies all around currently behave.
To demand that any company singlehandedly
bridges the gap is simply not realistic.
The sad truth is that the REALLY big companies who are in the game of setting standards can afford to piss of their customers a great deal because people often have close to nowhere else to go and migration can be a very long, tiresome and expensive process. Once they have starved out the competition, they can set up very advantageous standard (read: huge licencing fees) that more than makes up for the lost image during the attrition war.

Anyway, all I really want from you is to admit that you came of too hottempered. That can happen to everybody, no shame in that, and a LOT of people here have been down that road (including myself). And believe me, the only triumph I'll gain from your admittal - should you decide that I have a point - is to see that the respectful tone generally present in these forums is restored. As to why I myself have followed you down the path of heated argumentation, I guess it's hard not to start fighting fire with fire when you're met with little or no understanding.

To prove my point, I'll start out and admit to being out of line likening your debate form to "systematic intimidation".

Finally, I never meant the question about your opinion of my nationality to be provoking, more like a icebreaker (but it may not have been the worlds most obvious one). To be honest I didn't get much of you and Shining1's exchange on New Zealand, but I did sense the humourous tone and wanted to expand it.

posted 03-26-99 04:27 AM ET            

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

And Blah!

posted 03-26-99 09:28 AM ET            

oh, just about smac being rushed out. Well, if its rushed why didn't they make the Holiday(Christmass) shopping spree, because they care about the product. In fact I belive CGW or gamespot complimented them for releasing a bug free game and not rushing it out.

Agree software does have problems, WIn95 helped fix a lot( assigning irq etc for each game ) but it also caused alot of problems too.

posted 03-26-99 09:49 AM ET            

Well, car might be closer. You don't need to know how your car works (or how this exact model works) to use it. Vast majority of users don't need to know how it works.

posted 03-26-99 04:49 PM ET         

Regarding the complaint that "My game crashed, I sent them the save file, they said it didn't happen on their system.": that's one of the real frustrations of software development. It's damn near impossible to fix a bug if it's not repeatable. I suppose they could send someone out to your house with a full set of debug tools to work the problem right there on your computer, but if they did that the game would cost as much as your car.

posted 04-20-99 05:19 PM ET            

And you knew who you were then,
Boys were boys and Yin was Yin...