Improved Design of the Design Workshop

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Author Topic:   Improved Design of the Design Workshop

esper posted 03-04-99 11:42 AM ET
Towards the late portion of the game when I've accumulated enough techs to pretty much design any unit I want, comes the problem of having a ton of units which are clogging up the design workshop. The problem is that it is very tedious to have to use the arrow buttons to scroll through the list to disable some of the unnnecessary units so that my city build screen doesn't get overwhelmed. Its a real pain in the butt to have to sort out the trained, the amphibious, the clean, the AAA, the artillery, or the paradrop from one another or even worse, a combination of these traits.
What I really need is a simple way to filter out units by type, to look at only infantry or only rovers or only artillery in order to edit or remove a large group of unnecessary units quickly.
So I have a suggestion, the beauty of which is it doesn't require a huge amount of work to implement. In the design screen, there is a table of preset design buttons. It would be a huge blessing if that field could toggled to an alternate setting of "display only" where I could then use the unit type buttons to set display parameters of say infantry chassis and artillery then look at all units with those characteristics. It would greatly simplify design work for me and my low powered CPU.
If anyone doesn't get what I'm talking about I'll try to explain it again after I've had lunch.
MoSe posted 03-04-99 12:02 PM ET
And an horizontal scroll-bar, at least!!
What were all those beta testers there for?
Seems like Fir Axis fell on lots of trivialities.
sandworm posted 03-04-99 12:10 PM ET
Would be nice if units you mark obsolete disappear immediately, and newly created units ALWAYS appear immediately on the menu.
I get tired of closing and opening the units menu to see if "it really deleted" or "it was really created"
In simpler terms, when I create a unit, I usually want to add to the build queue, but can't unless I close and reopen the menu. Annoying.
not hard to fix?
Gixxer posted 03-04-99 12:23 PM ET
I fully agree. I do find it easier to go to the workshop from the Build menu. It is a little easier to figure out what is what and it beats the heck out of PgUp/PgDn. Also, my latest game is the first time I turned the tutorial help off and my engineers never suggest new unit designs. I highly recommend this if you are comfortable with the components. I found myself only building about 20% of the suggested types anyway.
GreatNate posted 03-05-99 12:17 PM ET
There is an option to have the game make new designs for you. I turned it off, and things are much better. I make the units I need, and don't have to scroll through lots of useless units.
I posted 03-05-99 12:46 PM ET

Excellent point! One more wish for v3.0...
Xminator posted 03-05-99 01:58 PM ET
Obsolete units that you dont have instances of should at least disapear...
Xminator
Loric posted 03-05-99 08:01 PM ET
I strongly agree with esper and MoSe. Later in the game, scrolling around the units in the Workshop is very tedious and annoying. Any of their suggestions would be very helpful.
It amazes me how many games don't use simple UI elements like scrollbars or don't use them properly.
I have disabled automatic generation of units and that helps, but not enough.
(Maybe it's because I'm using a P120, but a friend with a P2 400 has the same gripe, so I don't think it's the processor speed.)
While I'm griping, the build selection screen could be easier, too. There's no reason, IMHO, for each element to take up so much room. If they're going to be so big, they could at least use more of the screen space so usually they would all fit.
Not that any of this is going to stop me from playing, mind you... :-)
PhantomKnight posted 03-06-99 09:07 AM ET
When you want to get rid of a unit, don't mark it obselete, retire it. Be carefully though or you could disband all your existing defenses another nice feature is to use the upgrade command (if you have the cash) this will not only ensure that you have the better units it will retire the old and there is no chance of disbanding your units.
sandworm posted 03-06-99 10:25 AM ET
My engineers have a really annoying habit of asking me to spend money to "upgrade" to and inferior unit.
Do you want to upgrade our Super Singularity formers to the new Super Fusion Trance Former for 60 energy?
Let me think about that one guys, I'll get back to you. BTW, didn't I tell you fellas to make the Super Fusion Trance Formers obsolete about 50 years ago?
Turn those eggheads off! Why didn't I think of that? Right after I do that I'll upgrade to Common Sense 2.0 and everything will get better!
Glacier posted 03-06-99 12:32 PM ET
I would agree that the Design Workshop in the later stages of the game is a pain to navigate through. Would much prefer a list of designs much like the BUILD menu since that shows what 5 in a row and 3 rows and sorted. Something like that would make it easier to sort out which designs can be trashed and which to keep.
tOFfGI posted 03-06-99 01:17 PM ET
Press PAGE UP and PAGE DOWN to quickly scroll through the units.
I would like it to be a "frame selector" editor, meaning that as you scroll through the list of units, the one in the middle comes up on the main screen, sparing you the trouble of having to click on everything to see what to retire/upgrade/Whatever.
GaryD posted 03-24-99 09:18 AM ET
Can only concur with you guys. It's a real pain. (Thanks for the tip tOFfGI.)
Meanwhile, a question.
Can anyone tell me why, when I have designed my new super duper version of something, I can't always seem to upgrade the previous versions (or what I consider to be previous versions) of the unit to the new standard ? When the game auto designs a unit there doesn't seem to be problems.
(Oh, and why is there two "yes" options in the "Do you want to upgrade" box. I always choose "Yes, all". What is the difference ?
Jythexinvok posted 03-24-99 10:03 PM ET
One way to handle this problem is use an Explorer style interface. i.e. moving unit types into user defined catagorys, an 'obsolete' dirrectory.
NuWav posted 03-24-99 11:18 PM ET
I like Jythexinvok's idea. I used to be really annoyed by this, but now I design the units myself, and i am happy. when I need a unit, i design it and then produce it. Granted, you have to go thru the units manually to upgrade armor and weapons, but you still save time over scrolling thru 50 or 60 units and constantly deleting units that you dont want to avoid a huge number of them. That actually took me more time. I spend maybe 10% of the time in the design screen as i used to b4 i unchecked the autodesign preference.
JaimeWolf posted 03-25-99 12:00 AM ET
I use the auto-designer in the early stages to make sure I don't forget to design probes, formers, etc. But late I get sick of all the messy things they design so I turn it off around the time of Silksteel armour & Chaos weapons.
James
JaimeWolf posted 03-25-99 12:00 AM ET
I use the auto-designer in the early stages to make sure I don't forget to design stuff like probes, formers, etc. But later I get sick of all the messy things they design so I turn it off around the time of Silksteel armour & Chaos weapons.
James
cousLee posted 03-25-99 05:30 AM ET
I have found that leaving the autodesigner off, and visiting the obsolete and retire buttons when a new tech is discovered keeps the whole thing controllable. BTW, I rarely upgrade anything. Hmm, 2x the mineral cost? or disband and get 50% producing the new unit (making the new unit actually cheaper). I think I will disband. esp with reactor changes. you can almost "pay" for the new unit by disbanding the older unit. I only upgrade commando and elite units (unless i can build better) Since I can produce elite units out of the factory with miriam, most times disbanding is the better option. Don't forget to check the roster for units with 0 active for retirement (redesign later if needed)
RobKid posted 03-25-99 12:27 PM ET
JaimeWolf: Even if you have autodesign off, you'll still get the basic former and probe units. They're standard units (they have their own section in alpha.txt) and are always designed no matter what (at least in the games I've played).
DerekM posted 03-25-99 12:34 PM ET
You can now right-click on the production list to obsolete units and such. It is a nice improvement to an otherwise awkward design.
GaryD posted 03-26-99 04:23 AM ET
Disband rather than update ? Hadn't counted the figures to check if that was a better idea, but ... you do have to wait for the new production, and you can't do it en masse as you can with an upgrade (funds permitting). Bit of a pain to cover every defender in every city isn't it ?
Imran Siddiqui posted 03-26-99 03:25 PM ET
You know, what might have been better? To give us 100 spaces, so I wouldn't have to that obsolete and retire stuff. Just let the computer be, and I have space to make my own units!
Imran Siddiqui
micje posted 03-26-99 05:56 PM ET
What I would like is:
- an upgrade production but not units button.
- obsolete designs without instances are retired automatically.
- no more standard unit types like scout patrol.(Why would you want to keep scout patrol around anyway if a trance scout or a police scout costs the same?)
- an autocreate designs option: make one design (i.e. needlejet with max. weapon, max. reactor, no armor, deep radar and A-A). Whenever better weapons or reactors become available, the computer designs a new prototype, makes the old ones obsolete, and upgrades the production. As soon as a prototype is built, the comp asks if you wish to upgrade to the new design. I usually have at least six designs that can be specified like this, and I now have to upgrade these designs manually ten times throughout the game, which is pretty tedious.
weregamer posted 03-26-99 06:21 PM ET
micje: There are several reasons to have "scout" designs standard.
The most important one is that "scout" designs are *green* units, not *red* ones. Thus, they don't count as combat units for many purposes. I'm pretty sure they don't count for unrest when your Police rating is negative, for example, and I think they don't annoy your treaty friends as much as other units do when they cross their territory.
Now, personally, I think that a "scout" unit with Trance should still count as a "scout" unit, but the game algorithms say otherwise.
micje posted 03-31-99 04:20 PM ET
Maybe you're right, but WHY ON CHIRON would you want to station scouts in enemy territory?
outermost nervepath posted 04-01-99 06:29 PM ET
I have to agree. The unit design screen is depressingly bad. I can only assume the developers and QA always left automatic unit design on. You can win that way, but it isn't nearly as interesting.
Given that SMAC graphics aren't exactly mind-blowing (in this age of Voodoo2, Half-Life, and Falcon 4.0), I really wonder why they didn't just use the Windows GUI in smaller windows floating over a big map window and throw more effort into gameplay, testing, and the AI.
Imagine the game controls in separate control windows which you could turn on and off via a View or Window menu... kind of like tool palettes in paint programs, VB, etc.
Oh well.
Maybe in "Tau Ceti" (my imaginary sequel to Alpha Centauri).
Grug posted 04-01-99 07:46 PM ET
Personally I would like to see the ability to upgrade from a different chassis eg speeder to hovertank. If you can do it with weapons, armour, reactor and abilities, why not with chassis?
KRNVR posted 04-06-99 10:46 AM ET
micje:>Maybe you're right, but WHY ON CHIRON would you want to station scouts in enemy territory?
To get their pods? To establish contact with the next faction over when they come along? To wreck roads and such? To upgrade-in-place later("zxzxZXZX... Scout Troop 111, stand by to receive orders, Operation GATTLESNAKE...")?
To keep your options open.
ChairmanLee posted 04-07-99 10:22 AM ET
Last night I was looking at the Prefrences flags (X) and saw one that takes out obsolite units, and it works. As my units are upgraded the old crap is gone. Ya!
I am using the US patch 3.0.

micje posted 04-07-99 06:59 PM ET
OK, apparently there is a massive demand for scout units in enemy territory, and apparently their absence doesn't make their mothers unhappy, but PLEASE, if I obsolete them, PLEASE can they STAY obsolete? I know this is a fruit-fly sized bug, but it really bothers me.
BTW, does anyone disagree with the other improvements I suggested earlier in this thread?
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Author	Topic: Improved Design of the Design Workshop
esper	posted 03-04-99 11:42 AM ET Towards the late portion of the game when I've accumulated enough techs to pretty much design any unit I want, comes the problem of having a ton of units which are clogging up the design workshop. The problem is that it is very tedious to have to use the arrow buttons to scroll through the list to disable some of the unnnecessary units so that my city build screen doesn't get overwhelmed. Its a real pain in the butt to have to sort out the trained, the amphibious, the clean, the AAA, the artillery, or the paradrop from one another or even worse, a combination of these traits. What I really need is a simple way to filter out units by type, to look at only infantry or only rovers or only artillery in order to edit or remove a large group of unnecessary units quickly. So I have a suggestion, the beauty of which is it doesn't require a huge amount of work to implement. In the design screen, there is a table of preset design buttons. It would be a huge blessing if that field could toggled to an alternate setting of "display only" where I could then use the unit type buttons to set display parameters of say infantry chassis and artillery then look at all units with those characteristics. It would greatly simplify design work for me and my low powered CPU. If anyone doesn't get what I'm talking about I'll try to explain it again after I've had lunch.
MoSe	posted 03-04-99 12:02 PM ET And an horizontal scroll-bar, at least!! What were all those beta testers there for? Seems like Fir Axis fell on lots of trivialities.
sandworm	posted 03-04-99 12:10 PM ET Would be nice if units you mark obsolete disappear immediately, and newly created units ALWAYS appear immediately on the menu. I get tired of closing and opening the units menu to see if "it really deleted" or "it was really created" In simpler terms, when I create a unit, I usually want to add to the build queue, but can't unless I close and reopen the menu. Annoying. not hard to fix?
Gixxer	posted 03-04-99 12:23 PM ET I fully agree. I do find it easier to go to the workshop from the Build menu. It is a little easier to figure out what is what and it beats the heck out of PgUp/PgDn. Also, my latest game is the first time I turned the tutorial help off and my engineers never suggest new unit designs. I highly recommend this if you are comfortable with the components. I found myself only building about 20% of the suggested types anyway.
GreatNate	posted 03-05-99 12:17 PM ET There is an option to have the game make new designs for you. I turned it off, and things are much better. I make the units I need, and don't have to scroll through lots of useless units.
I	posted 03-05-99 12:46 PM ET Excellent point! One more wish for v3.0...
Xminator	posted 03-05-99 01:58 PM ET Obsolete units that you dont have instances of should at least disapear... Xminator
Loric	posted 03-05-99 08:01 PM ET I strongly agree with esper and MoSe. Later in the game, scrolling around the units in the Workshop is very tedious and annoying. Any of their suggestions would be very helpful. It amazes me how many games don't use simple UI elements like scrollbars or don't use them properly. I have disabled automatic generation of units and that helps, but not enough. (Maybe it's because I'm using a P120, but a friend with a P2 400 has the same gripe, so I don't think it's the processor speed.) While I'm griping, the build selection screen could be easier, too. There's no reason, IMHO, for each element to take up so much room. If they're going to be so big, they could at least use more of the screen space so usually they would all fit. Not that any of this is going to stop me from playing, mind you... :-)
PhantomKnight	posted 03-06-99 09:07 AM ET When you want to get rid of a unit, don't mark it obselete, retire it. Be carefully though or you could disband all your existing defenses another nice feature is to use the upgrade command (if you have the cash) this will not only ensure that you have the better units it will retire the old and there is no chance of disbanding your units.
sandworm	posted 03-06-99 10:25 AM ET My engineers have a really annoying habit of asking me to spend money to "upgrade" to and inferior unit. Do you want to upgrade our Super Singularity formers to the new Super Fusion Trance Former for 60 energy? Let me think about that one guys, I'll get back to you. BTW, didn't I tell you fellas to make the Super Fusion Trance Formers obsolete about 50 years ago? Turn those eggheads off! Why didn't I think of that? Right after I do that I'll upgrade to Common Sense 2.0 and everything will get better!
Glacier	posted 03-06-99 12:32 PM ET I would agree that the Design Workshop in the later stages of the game is a pain to navigate through. Would much prefer a list of designs much like the BUILD menu since that shows what 5 in a row and 3 rows and sorted. Something like that would make it easier to sort out which designs can be trashed and which to keep.
tOFfGI	posted 03-06-99 01:17 PM ET Press PAGE UP and PAGE DOWN to quickly scroll through the units. I would like it to be a "frame selector" editor, meaning that as you scroll through the list of units, the one in the middle comes up on the main screen, sparing you the trouble of having to click on everything to see what to retire/upgrade/Whatever.
GaryD	posted 03-24-99 09:18 AM ET Can only concur with you guys. It's a real pain. (Thanks for the tip tOFfGI.) Meanwhile, a question. Can anyone tell me why, when I have designed my new super duper version of something, I can't always seem to upgrade the previous versions (or what I consider to be previous versions) of the unit to the new standard ? When the game auto designs a unit there doesn't seem to be problems. (Oh, and why is there two "yes" options in the "Do you want to upgrade" box. I always choose "Yes, all". What is the difference ?
Jythexinvok	posted 03-24-99 10:03 PM ET One way to handle this problem is use an Explorer style interface. i.e. moving unit types into user defined catagorys, an 'obsolete' dirrectory.
NuWav	posted 03-24-99 11:18 PM ET I like Jythexinvok's idea. I used to be really annoyed by this, but now I design the units myself, and i am happy. when I need a unit, i design it and then produce it. Granted, you have to go thru the units manually to upgrade armor and weapons, but you still save time over scrolling thru 50 or 60 units and constantly deleting units that you dont want to avoid a huge number of them. That actually took me more time. I spend maybe 10% of the time in the design screen as i used to b4 i unchecked the autodesign preference.
JaimeWolf	posted 03-25-99 12:00 AM ET I use the auto-designer in the early stages to make sure I don't forget to design probes, formers, etc. But late I get sick of all the messy things they design so I turn it off around the time of Silksteel armour & Chaos weapons. James
JaimeWolf	posted 03-25-99 12:00 AM ET I use the auto-designer in the early stages to make sure I don't forget to design stuff like probes, formers, etc. But later I get sick of all the messy things they design so I turn it off around the time of Silksteel armour & Chaos weapons. James
cousLee	posted 03-25-99 05:30 AM ET I have found that leaving the autodesigner off, and visiting the obsolete and retire buttons when a new tech is discovered keeps the whole thing controllable. BTW, I rarely upgrade anything. Hmm, 2x the mineral cost? or disband and get 50% producing the new unit (making the new unit actually cheaper). I think I will disband. esp with reactor changes. you can almost "pay" for the new unit by disbanding the older unit. I only upgrade commando and elite units (unless i can build better) Since I can produce elite units out of the factory with miriam, most times disbanding is the better option. Don't forget to check the roster for units with 0 active for retirement (redesign later if needed)
RobKid	posted 03-25-99 12:27 PM ET JaimeWolf: Even if you have autodesign off, you'll still get the basic former and probe units. They're standard units (they have their own section in alpha.txt) and are always designed no matter what (at least in the games I've played).
DerekM	posted 03-25-99 12:34 PM ET You can now right-click on the production list to obsolete units and such. It is a nice improvement to an otherwise awkward design.
GaryD	posted 03-26-99 04:23 AM ET Disband rather than update ? Hadn't counted the figures to check if that was a better idea, but ... you do have to wait for the new production, and you can't do it en masse as you can with an upgrade (funds permitting). Bit of a pain to cover every defender in every city isn't it ?
Imran Siddiqui	posted 03-26-99 03:25 PM ET You know, what might have been better? To give us 100 spaces, so I wouldn't have to that obsolete and retire stuff. Just let the computer be, and I have space to make my own units! Imran Siddiqui
micje	posted 03-26-99 05:56 PM ET What I would like is: - an upgrade production but not units button. - obsolete designs without instances are retired automatically. - no more standard unit types like scout patrol.(Why would you want to keep scout patrol around anyway if a trance scout or a police scout costs the same?) - an autocreate designs option: make one design (i.e. needlejet with max. weapon, max. reactor, no armor, deep radar and A-A). Whenever better weapons or reactors become available, the computer designs a new prototype, makes the old ones obsolete, and upgrades the production. As soon as a prototype is built, the comp asks if you wish to upgrade to the new design. I usually have at least six designs that can be specified like this, and I now have to upgrade these designs manually ten times throughout the game, which is pretty tedious.
weregamer	posted 03-26-99 06:21 PM ET micje: There are several reasons to have "scout" designs standard. The most important one is that "scout" designs are green units, not red ones. Thus, they don't count as combat units for many purposes. I'm pretty sure they don't count for unrest when your Police rating is negative, for example, and I think they don't annoy your treaty friends as much as other units do when they cross their territory. Now, personally, I think that a "scout" unit with Trance should still count as a "scout" unit, but the game algorithms say otherwise.
micje	posted 03-31-99 04:20 PM ET Maybe you're right, but WHY ON CHIRON would you want to station scouts in enemy territory?
outermost nervepath	posted 04-01-99 06:29 PM ET I have to agree. The unit design screen is depressingly bad. I can only assume the developers and QA always left automatic unit design on. You can win that way, but it isn't nearly as interesting. Given that SMAC graphics aren't exactly mind-blowing (in this age of Voodoo2, Half-Life, and Falcon 4.0), I really wonder why they didn't just use the Windows GUI in smaller windows floating over a big map window and throw more effort into gameplay, testing, and the AI. Imagine the game controls in separate control windows which you could turn on and off via a View or Window menu... kind of like tool palettes in paint programs, VB, etc. Oh well. Maybe in "Tau Ceti" (my imaginary sequel to Alpha Centauri).
Grug	posted 04-01-99 07:46 PM ET Personally I would like to see the ability to upgrade from a different chassis eg speeder to hovertank. If you can do it with weapons, armour, reactor and abilities, why not with chassis?
KRNVR	posted 04-06-99 10:46 AM ET micje:>Maybe you're right, but WHY ON CHIRON would you want to station scouts in enemy territory? To get their pods? To establish contact with the next faction over when they come along? To wreck roads and such? To upgrade-in-place later("zxzxZXZX... Scout Troop 111, stand by to receive orders, Operation GATTLESNAKE...")? To keep your options open.
ChairmanLee	posted 04-07-99 10:22 AM ET Last night I was looking at the Prefrences flags (X) and saw one that takes out obsolite units, and it works. As my units are upgraded the old crap is gone. Ya! I am using the US patch 3.0.
micje	posted 04-07-99 06:59 PM ET OK, apparently there is a massive demand for scout units in enemy territory, and apparently their absence doesn't make their mothers unhappy, but PLEASE, if I obsolete them, PLEASE can they STAY obsolete? I know this is a fruit-fly sized bug, but it really bothers me. BTW, does anyone disagree with the other improvements I suggested earlier in this thread?