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Author Topic:   Copters too unbalanced?

esper posted 03-03-99 04:56 PM ET
I don't know if there has been any discussion on this topic or not, but does anyone else feel they are too powerful with the number of attacks equal to movement? I know its exactly the same as for fighter planes in civII, but in civ, you couldn't customize fighters to be that strong. Basically, once I get copters with a weapon advantage, the game is all but over. Perhaps if there were a limit on number of attacks, say three, it would be a bit more balanced.
uncleroggy posted 03-03-99 05:22 PM ET
Esper,
I can't speak much for using copters to attack other units. However, I have been conducting a number of experiments with helicopters to conduct a scorched earth policy by destroying sensor arrays, mines, farms, solar collectors and the like. I have found that the cheapest and most lightly armed copters are far better than needle jets for this purpose for the following reasons.
1) Frequency- Copters can fly for 4 turns(48squares) before landing as compared to penetrators returning to base every other turn. Therefore, penetrators can only manage 2 attacks every 4 turns compared to 3 for the copter.
2) Range- Penetrators have a one way range of 12 and will usually have to work their way through the defensive belt to pick off what is available. Copters have a range of 36 as they do not have to land until the 4th turn. However, if you plan your moves right, you can really hit at deep and vital targets especially if you strategically place a ship or have a pactbrother base available.
3) Cost- Copters are dirt cheap even if you build clean reators. Therefore if I build 3 coptors at the same price as 2 penetrators, I get 9 attacks vs 4 attacks every 4 turns. I need to check this as copters may be even cheaper than 3 to 2.
4) Poor A/I- A/I doesn't respond to these incursions with any effectiveness. Garrisons will not sortie to pick off a copter and I have had the hive boy fly 21 penetrators past my copter 4 times in my current game without batting an eyelash.
BTW, I knew this was going to be a problem when I saw that the copters hadn't changed much from Civ II.
The bottom line is that in single player this is an all too easy way to cripple the strongest opponents.
player1 posted 03-03-99 06:39 PM ET
I couldn't agree more. 'Copters are much too powerful. I would recommend that Firaxis limit their attacks, or at least make them more expensive to build.
Thunder posted 03-04-99 01:49 AM ET
Yes, they are too powerful, they should have one attack/reactor level, so a singularity copter could attack only 4 times not 16 as it is now.
Purgemoff posted 03-04-99 03:11 AM ET
I don't agree that AI does not respond to chopters well. I just took a city from Lal and he is sending zillions of troops to take it back. I thought chopters would be great to remove the threat, but as soon as I attack a unit of his with my chopter some jets fly out from his nearby city and shoot my chopter down.
KJohnstone posted 03-04-99 03:57 AM ET
Well, was sending in the chopper armada against Miriam, and she reacted by building silksteel AAA garrisons. Things started getting hairy, was beginning to lose choppers as she picked up a new reactor tech for her troops. Seemed by choppers had become useless, but then, I countered by slapping together special Blink choppers, hehehhe.
But then Deidre joined in the fun, and I realized those mindworms garrisoned in Mirriam's cities had really put a stopper on things. Choppers couldn't take those mindworms, and if I attacked with a psi ground attacker, someone else would defend rather than the mindworm. So I blasted 'em with some long range firepower, a softened mindworm is a dead mindworm.
KJ
Beldar posted 03-04-99 10:52 AM ET
I agree that choppers are too tough. They're far and away the best offensive unit in the game, due to the multiple attacks and the ability to get away before being counterattacked.
Actually, tanks aren't that much worse on the attack, since you're not likely to be able to make more than 2 attacks with a chopper once the enemy has AAA on everything. But you have to have armor on a tank, or escort it with an armored unit. A chopper can just run for home.
Maybe chopper attacks should burn more than one movement point? In any event, I don't see what use penetrators are ever going to be. Does anyone bother to build them anymore?
Pragmatist posted 03-04-99 11:56 AM ET
The deadly combo is UoP research and copters. I have never lost after getting to Mind/Machine Interface as the UoP. Typically I'm flying 6-3-8 copters against 5-1-2 Speeders and 5-2-1 Infantry and thats just no matchup. I've concluded that if you start in an isolated area as Uop you should just start over because this is always a win.
sandworm posted 03-04-99 12:04 PM ET
I have had the AI adapt to copters by building photon wall or better AAA troops in my current game, the problem is that these troop were so good the computer warned me I didn't stand a chance before I could lose any choppers. I just upgraded to tachyon/shard weapons, but still had to avoid using my copters (veteran or better) on any colonies with AAA defenders. Any units in the open are easy prey though.
up to 12 attacks/turn? Seems excessive. I like the # of attacks determined by reactor Thunder mentioned. Maybe 2-5 depending on reactor though?
Analyst posted 03-04-99 12:35 PM ET
KJohnstone, what you needed to do against Dierdre was ugrade those choppers in the field with empath song special ability. Unit design adaptability means never having to say you're outgunned.
I'll add my agreement that choppers are a big imbalancer in the game. They should be treated as mobile land units--no more than two attacks normally and three if Elite.
After a certain point in the game, my offensive strategy is, basically, scorch the earth with choppers and drop units directly into the undefended cities. Repeat until faction surrenders.
Antiam posted 03-04-99 05:03 PM ET
One thing choppers can't do is destroy stacks. While a tank can take out a stack of 15 units, the chopper's got to take em out one by one.
Antiam
StargazerBC posted 03-06-99 05:43 PM ET
Welp, Personally, I don't like to use Copters because they lose HP after fuel runs out. Maybe, that's the great equalizer?
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Author	Topic: Copters too unbalanced?
esper	posted 03-03-99 04:56 PM ET I don't know if there has been any discussion on this topic or not, but does anyone else feel they are too powerful with the number of attacks equal to movement? I know its exactly the same as for fighter planes in civII, but in civ, you couldn't customize fighters to be that strong. Basically, once I get copters with a weapon advantage, the game is all but over. Perhaps if there were a limit on number of attacks, say three, it would be a bit more balanced.
uncleroggy	posted 03-03-99 05:22 PM ET Esper, I can't speak much for using copters to attack other units. However, I have been conducting a number of experiments with helicopters to conduct a scorched earth policy by destroying sensor arrays, mines, farms, solar collectors and the like. I have found that the cheapest and most lightly armed copters are far better than needle jets for this purpose for the following reasons. 1) Frequency- Copters can fly for 4 turns(48squares) before landing as compared to penetrators returning to base every other turn. Therefore, penetrators can only manage 2 attacks every 4 turns compared to 3 for the copter. 2) Range- Penetrators have a one way range of 12 and will usually have to work their way through the defensive belt to pick off what is available. Copters have a range of 36 as they do not have to land until the 4th turn. However, if you plan your moves right, you can really hit at deep and vital targets especially if you strategically place a ship or have a pactbrother base available. 3) Cost- Copters are dirt cheap even if you build clean reators. Therefore if I build 3 coptors at the same price as 2 penetrators, I get 9 attacks vs 4 attacks every 4 turns. I need to check this as copters may be even cheaper than 3 to 2. 4) Poor A/I- A/I doesn't respond to these incursions with any effectiveness. Garrisons will not sortie to pick off a copter and I have had the hive boy fly 21 penetrators past my copter 4 times in my current game without batting an eyelash. BTW, I knew this was going to be a problem when I saw that the copters hadn't changed much from Civ II. The bottom line is that in single player this is an all too easy way to cripple the strongest opponents.
player1	posted 03-03-99 06:39 PM ET I couldn't agree more. 'Copters are much too powerful. I would recommend that Firaxis limit their attacks, or at least make them more expensive to build.
Thunder	posted 03-04-99 01:49 AM ET Yes, they are too powerful, they should have one attack/reactor level, so a singularity copter could attack only 4 times not 16 as it is now.
Purgemoff	posted 03-04-99 03:11 AM ET I don't agree that AI does not respond to chopters well. I just took a city from Lal and he is sending zillions of troops to take it back. I thought chopters would be great to remove the threat, but as soon as I attack a unit of his with my chopter some jets fly out from his nearby city and shoot my chopter down.
KJohnstone	posted 03-04-99 03:57 AM ET Well, was sending in the chopper armada against Miriam, and she reacted by building silksteel AAA garrisons. Things started getting hairy, was beginning to lose choppers as she picked up a new reactor tech for her troops. Seemed by choppers had become useless, but then, I countered by slapping together special Blink choppers, hehehhe. But then Deidre joined in the fun, and I realized those mindworms garrisoned in Mirriam's cities had really put a stopper on things. Choppers couldn't take those mindworms, and if I attacked with a psi ground attacker, someone else would defend rather than the mindworm. So I blasted 'em with some long range firepower, a softened mindworm is a dead mindworm. KJ
Beldar	posted 03-04-99 10:52 AM ET I agree that choppers are too tough. They're far and away the best offensive unit in the game, due to the multiple attacks and the ability to get away before being counterattacked. Actually, tanks aren't that much worse on the attack, since you're not likely to be able to make more than 2 attacks with a chopper once the enemy has AAA on everything. But you have to have armor on a tank, or escort it with an armored unit. A chopper can just run for home. Maybe chopper attacks should burn more than one movement point? In any event, I don't see what use penetrators are ever going to be. Does anyone bother to build them anymore?
Pragmatist	posted 03-04-99 11:56 AM ET The deadly combo is UoP research and copters. I have never lost after getting to Mind/Machine Interface as the UoP. Typically I'm flying 6-3-8 copters against 5-1-2 Speeders and 5-2-1 Infantry and thats just no matchup. I've concluded that if you start in an isolated area as Uop you should just start over because this is always a win.
sandworm	posted 03-04-99 12:04 PM ET I have had the AI adapt to copters by building photon wall or better AAA troops in my current game, the problem is that these troop were so good the computer warned me I didn't stand a chance before I could lose any choppers. I just upgraded to tachyon/shard weapons, but still had to avoid using my copters (veteran or better) on any colonies with AAA defenders. Any units in the open are easy prey though. up to 12 attacks/turn? Seems excessive. I like the # of attacks determined by reactor Thunder mentioned. Maybe 2-5 depending on reactor though?
Analyst	posted 03-04-99 12:35 PM ET KJohnstone, what you needed to do against Dierdre was ugrade those choppers in the field with empath song special ability. Unit design adaptability means never having to say you're outgunned. I'll add my agreement that choppers are a big imbalancer in the game. They should be treated as mobile land units--no more than two attacks normally and three if Elite. After a certain point in the game, my offensive strategy is, basically, scorch the earth with choppers and drop units directly into the undefended cities. Repeat until faction surrenders.
Antiam	posted 03-04-99 05:03 PM ET One thing choppers can't do is destroy stacks. While a tank can take out a stack of 15 units, the chopper's got to take em out one by one. Antiam
StargazerBC	posted 03-06-99 05:43 PM ET Welp, Personally, I don't like to use Copters because they lose HP after fuel runs out. Maybe, that's the great equalizer?