FIRAXIS, about the Space Elevator...

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Author Topic:   FIRAXIS, about the Space Elevator...

Lightwing posted 03-02-99 07:49 PM ET
As anybody who has built the Space Elevator knows, there is a serious side effect to getting that Secret Project. As one of its benefits, it doubles mineral production in all bases that are producing orbital improvments. This is far more of a curse than a blessing. The reason is that along with doubling mineral production, it increase your ecological damage by a massive factor, going from 0 to 40 or 50. This causes worms to attack in massive numbers and the sea levels to rise. I no longer build the Space Elevator. I would like to know, was this an intentional side effect or was it an unforseen problem. If it was not intentional, couldn't it be "halves cost of orbital improvements" which would eliminate the problem? If so, I would like to see it in an upcoming patch. Sorry to disturb you, but this problem really stands out in every game I play. Thanks in advance for any replies.
-Lightwing

Jimmy posted 03-02-99 09:48 PM ET
The space elevator has another huge benefit: orbital drops. Being able to drop a unit anywhere on planet is a huge advantage. 1) your enemy can no longer let any of his bases, no matter how far from you, become empty because you can immediately take it.
2) with drop supply crawlers you can rush secret projects from all you bases even if they are too far away and/or you don't have roads/mag tubes connecting them.
So I think the space elevator is one of the most crucial SP because of that mobility bonus. I built it and the mind worms were not anything I could not handle.
Zoetrope posted 03-02-99 10:19 PM ET
Yes, Jimmy, but the question remains: is the increased surface ecological damage (from _space_ transport, huh???) intentional?
TheClockKing posted 03-02-99 11:10 PM ET
You can control the eco damage you just have to prepare ahead of time. Or you can do like me and try to do eco damage and flood the world.
Ender4000 posted 03-03-99 08:00 AM ET
I've only built the space elevator in one game. I had no problems with worms after I built it. I had hybrid forests in every city and thats about it. I orbital dropped units everywhere, took out the last cities over the next 50 years or so and had no ecological problems at all.
CEO Alandrion posted 03-03-99 08:44 AM ET
Even with a planet rating of 3 or 4, by the time you get the Space Elevator you will do massive damage to the environment if you try and build an orbital. Believe me I have tried everything. Hybrid forests/Tree Farms/+4 planet rating/Centauri Preserve/No Boreholes/Pholus Mutagen and I still get raped by planet if I try and build an orbital. This is because eco-damage is largely a function of mineral production.
The Space Elevator NEEDS to be changed to half the price of orbitals, rather than double your production. Also, does it really double energy output at your base? It didn't seem to the one game I built it. Maybe I just didnt read the numbers right. Anyways, unless this horrible side effect is intentional to offset the good parts of the project (which I doubt, considering the awesome power of Cloning Vats), then the next patch should include a fix to this.
-CEO Alandrion
MoSe posted 03-03-99 08:51 AM ET
Ender4000
just to make it clear, as it was addressed in a previous topic, EcoDamage with Elevator is a FACT.
It occurs only during Orbital improvement production tho, coz only for those items you get the bonus that *doubles* your *mineral* production (instead of halving the item's cost, production effectiveness vs. raw output). I agree I doesn't make all that sense.
Maybe it came as an unforeseen side-effect, then it was left in place to balance the bonus of OrbInserts.
Someone did point out that by the time you get the Elevator, you should have already produced the most part of the satellites you do need; if you want to have more, you should be able to handle the situation by then.
You can always choose the poor-mineral-producing bases (!) for that task, so that the M x 2 is not a threat, and then hurry them (if you're in a hurry).
Saluti
MariOne
Spencer Olson posted 03-03-99 12:01 PM ET
"EcoDamage with Elevator is a FACT."
Whoa. Do you mean to say that Firaxis has officially featured this? If that's the case, I must insist that this is the first major misstep on their part.
See, I always interpreted the orbital "bonus" for the elevator to show that less resources have to be spent to get it into space since you don't have to invest in all the propulsions and what not. Instead, is Firaxis suggesting that, while using the elevator speeds up the process, that every use of it to launch something into space pisses off the Planet?
Hmm. I suppose that's not too bad an idea. But then extended orbital drops should also cause some sort of distress, yes?
Spencer Olson
Lycilph posted 03-03-99 02:06 PM ET
You don't need the Space Elevator to do an orbital drop. After you research Graviton Theory(I think), you can do orbital drops. So, unless you need to build the space stations at an accelerated rate, I wouldn't even bother with the Space Elevator until it's fixed
Xminator posted 03-05-99 03:02 PM ET
I like the sideeffects... It does remove Aerospace restrictions too, and THAT is powerful... Maybe I'm weird but I really like the side-effects projects create. Adds to the dept of the game...
Xminator
Dredd posted 03-05-99 03:30 PM ET
The benefit of the Space Elevator should be to *cut the cost in half* when building orbital improvements - this would represent the ease of orbital insertion with the Space Elevator and achieve the result without the annoying ecological side effects.
Doubling the mineral production doesn't really make sense... does it?
Wen_Amon posted 03-05-99 03:41 PM ET
Luc has it right. You dont even need it!
But still, the worms that appear due to the eco disruption produce a multitude of planet pearl!!!
jedijon posted 03-05-99 04:07 PM ET
Could we have a response from Fraxis on this? Is the Space Elevator thing intentional or not? If not, will it (along with not being able to build "Temple of Planet" until "Voice of Planet" is built) be fixed in the next patch?
MrSmily posted 03-05-99 09:24 PM ET
I think the Space elevater "side effect" was meant to be apart of it.Because it:
1.Orbital insertions anywhere is a *VERY* big advantage. The tech to do it comes in the late game and by then the person that built the space elevater has allready droped anything and everything to any place they want to.
2.100% energy....I have no idea why this is in it but its just a frill.
3.The person that builds it gets to build satalites faster than anyone.So you can crank out the defence pods and blow someone elses satalites away and block PB's.
There is a price for this great SP, and that price is eco-damage.
MoSe posted 03-08-99 04:13 AM ET
Space you later
Elevator
Serenity posted 03-08-99 07:41 AM ET
I have an explanation for the 100% energy question... Suppose that you have a elevator to space... Let's say 100 meters in diameter... Then you cover it with solar panels from top to bottom (from space to the ground)... That's ALOT of solar power!!!!
That explanation is dircetly from Games Designer Workshops RPG "2300AD"... Can anybody confirm, that Firaxis got the idea from that game?? I mean the space elevator in SMAC resemble ALOT it's counterpart in 2300AD...
Ender4000 posted 03-08-99 07:56 AM ET
if you read the description of the space elevator in the manual it states that it increases mineral output while building orbital platforms. So I'd say its a feature.
Rasputin posted 03-08-99 03:37 PM ET
The space elevator should have NO negative side effects. No other Secret Project (all of which are powerful) has detrimental effects. And it should halve the time to make orbital improvements, not double mineral production (Does the Elevator dig into Planet? NO! Does it make it much easier to get minerals into orbit? YES!)
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Author	Topic: FIRAXIS, about the Space Elevator...
Lightwing	posted 03-02-99 07:49 PM ET As anybody who has built the Space Elevator knows, there is a serious side effect to getting that Secret Project. As one of its benefits, it doubles mineral production in all bases that are producing orbital improvments. This is far more of a curse than a blessing. The reason is that along with doubling mineral production, it increase your ecological damage by a massive factor, going from 0 to 40 or 50. This causes worms to attack in massive numbers and the sea levels to rise. I no longer build the Space Elevator. I would like to know, was this an intentional side effect or was it an unforseen problem. If it was not intentional, couldn't it be "halves cost of orbital improvements" which would eliminate the problem? If so, I would like to see it in an upcoming patch. Sorry to disturb you, but this problem really stands out in every game I play. Thanks in advance for any replies. -Lightwing
Jimmy	posted 03-02-99 09:48 PM ET The space elevator has another huge benefit: orbital drops. Being able to drop a unit anywhere on planet is a huge advantage. 1) your enemy can no longer let any of his bases, no matter how far from you, become empty because you can immediately take it. 2) with drop supply crawlers you can rush secret projects from all you bases even if they are too far away and/or you don't have roads/mag tubes connecting them. So I think the space elevator is one of the most crucial SP because of that mobility bonus. I built it and the mind worms were not anything I could not handle.
Zoetrope	posted 03-02-99 10:19 PM ET Yes, Jimmy, but the question remains: is the increased surface ecological damage (from _space_ transport, huh???) intentional?
TheClockKing	posted 03-02-99 11:10 PM ET You can control the eco damage you just have to prepare ahead of time. Or you can do like me and try to do eco damage and flood the world.
Ender4000	posted 03-03-99 08:00 AM ET I've only built the space elevator in one game. I had no problems with worms after I built it. I had hybrid forests in every city and thats about it. I orbital dropped units everywhere, took out the last cities over the next 50 years or so and had no ecological problems at all.
CEO Alandrion	posted 03-03-99 08:44 AM ET Even with a planet rating of 3 or 4, by the time you get the Space Elevator you will do massive damage to the environment if you try and build an orbital. Believe me I have tried everything. Hybrid forests/Tree Farms/+4 planet rating/Centauri Preserve/No Boreholes/Pholus Mutagen and I still get raped by planet if I try and build an orbital. This is because eco-damage is largely a function of mineral production. The Space Elevator NEEDS to be changed to half the price of orbitals, rather than double your production. Also, does it really double energy output at your base? It didn't seem to the one game I built it. Maybe I just didnt read the numbers right. Anyways, unless this horrible side effect is intentional to offset the good parts of the project (which I doubt, considering the awesome power of Cloning Vats), then the next patch should include a fix to this. -CEO Alandrion
MoSe	posted 03-03-99 08:51 AM ET Ender4000 just to make it clear, as it was addressed in a previous topic, EcoDamage with Elevator is a FACT. It occurs only during Orbital improvement production tho, coz only for those items you get the bonus that doubles your mineral production (instead of halving the item's cost, production effectiveness vs. raw output). I agree I doesn't make all that sense. Maybe it came as an unforeseen side-effect, then it was left in place to balance the bonus of OrbInserts. Someone did point out that by the time you get the Elevator, you should have already produced the most part of the satellites you do need; if you want to have more, you should be able to handle the situation by then. You can always choose the poor-mineral-producing bases (!) for that task, so that the M x 2 is not a threat, and then hurry them (if you're in a hurry). Saluti MariOne
Spencer Olson	posted 03-03-99 12:01 PM ET "EcoDamage with Elevator is a FACT." Whoa. Do you mean to say that Firaxis has officially featured this? If that's the case, I must insist that this is the first major misstep on their part. See, I always interpreted the orbital "bonus" for the elevator to show that less resources have to be spent to get it into space since you don't have to invest in all the propulsions and what not. Instead, is Firaxis suggesting that, while using the elevator speeds up the process, that every use of it to launch something into space pisses off the Planet? Hmm. I suppose that's not too bad an idea. But then extended orbital drops should also cause some sort of distress, yes? Spencer Olson
Lycilph	posted 03-03-99 02:06 PM ET You don't need the Space Elevator to do an orbital drop. After you research Graviton Theory(I think), you can do orbital drops. So, unless you need to build the space stations at an accelerated rate, I wouldn't even bother with the Space Elevator until it's fixed
Xminator	posted 03-05-99 03:02 PM ET I like the sideeffects... It does remove Aerospace restrictions too, and THAT is powerful... Maybe I'm weird but I really like the side-effects projects create. Adds to the dept of the game... Xminator
Dredd	posted 03-05-99 03:30 PM ET The benefit of the Space Elevator should be to cut the cost in half when building orbital improvements - this would represent the ease of orbital insertion with the Space Elevator and achieve the result without the annoying ecological side effects. Doubling the mineral production doesn't really make sense... does it?
Wen_Amon	posted 03-05-99 03:41 PM ET Luc has it right. You dont even need it! But still, the worms that appear due to the eco disruption produce a multitude of planet pearl!!!
jedijon	posted 03-05-99 04:07 PM ET Could we have a response from Fraxis on this? Is the Space Elevator thing intentional or not? If not, will it (along with not being able to build "Temple of Planet" until "Voice of Planet" is built) be fixed in the next patch?
MrSmily	posted 03-05-99 09:24 PM ET I think the Space elevater "side effect" was meant to be apart of it.Because it: 1.Orbital insertions anywhere is a VERY big advantage. The tech to do it comes in the late game and by then the person that built the space elevater has allready droped anything and everything to any place they want to. 2.100% energy....I have no idea why this is in it but its just a frill. 3.The person that builds it gets to build satalites faster than anyone.So you can crank out the defence pods and blow someone elses satalites away and block PB's. There is a price for this great SP, and that price is eco-damage.
MoSe	posted 03-08-99 04:13 AM ET Space you later Elevator
Serenity	posted 03-08-99 07:41 AM ET I have an explanation for the 100% energy question... Suppose that you have a elevator to space... Let's say 100 meters in diameter... Then you cover it with solar panels from top to bottom (from space to the ground)... That's ALOT of solar power!!!! That explanation is dircetly from Games Designer Workshops RPG "2300AD"... Can anybody confirm, that Firaxis got the idea from that game?? I mean the space elevator in SMAC resemble ALOT it's counterpart in 2300AD...
Ender4000	posted 03-08-99 07:56 AM ET if you read the description of the space elevator in the manual it states that it increases mineral output while building orbital platforms. So I'd say its a feature.
Rasputin	posted 03-08-99 03:37 PM ET The space elevator should have NO negative side effects. No other Secret Project (all of which are powerful) has detrimental effects. And it should halve the time to make orbital improvements, not double mineral production (Does the Elevator dig into Planet? NO! Does it make it much easier to get minerals into orbit? YES!)