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Author Topic:   Pacifist - winning without armies

KenAshford posted 02-28-99 01:30 PM ET
Just for thrills, I've been thinking about trying to win a game without building any offensive units at all (just one or two defensive sentinels for each city). Any thoughts about factions/strategy?
Obviously, the way to win is not to get into fights -- that in part will depend on geography.
But geography aside, the first question is what faction. I first thought about playing as Deidre, since that faction is closest to being pacifistic. But I'm thinking also maybe Morgan, since I can "buy" friends and ensure peace.
Has anyone tried this? I'd be interested in hearing your "war stories" (well, "peace stories" I guess).
player1 posted 02-28-99 02:48 PM ET
If im understanding what you are proposing; yes, the game can be won without being an aggressive warmonger. As to using only "DEFENSIVE" units to protect your holdings, I think that that's a bad idea. There are many
situations where an "offensive" unit can play
a crucial defensive role. A needlejet equipped with a deep radar, for instance, can be used to patrol the waters around your territory for enemy troop transports and stop them from landing. The needlejet is undeniably a completely "offensive" unit (ie: it is very poor when defending against ground units in a city), but is an essential part of any defense.
I have routinely played Civ and Alpha on the highest difficulty levels without invading any of my neighbors, and won. So what you are proposing is possible; it's actually pretty fun! But you're going to need those "offensive" units, too!
SenseiPhoenix posted 02-28-99 03:29 PM ET
To tell the truth, I'm rather pacificstic as well. One way to win that way is, obviously, to play diplomat. Keep your neighbors close, and go for social engineering goals that are close to those of your neighbors. Also, when they get nasty, pay them. It's usually only a small amount, and you can usually get off by paying a lesser amount. Then there's, of course, geography, but that's mostly luck. Of course, not building bases too close to neighbors is important, as is keeping out of their space. Don't be stingy and keep yourself at least 2 defenders in each base, and you should do fine. And of course the best way is to *PLUG* play a multiplayer game with alliance rules *PLUG* hehe.
Rong posted 02-28-99 03:30 PM ET
I think this strategy can work, and perhaps works best for Gaians. At the beginning of the game, build 4-5 cities, then use one or two with high productions to build secret projects, and the rest just churning out colony pods after pods. If you are on a big continent, grad as much land as you can. If you are on a small island, things are going to be tougher, you need to build transport as early as possible. In the mean time use the formers (I usually build one for each city) to build road to link all the cities together. When you can't expand any more, beefing up the defense and build a few strong offensive units as mobile force. Needlejets would be especially useful.
The reason why it works best as Gaians. First, because of Gaians' high efficiency, there is not as much penalty when you have lots of far away cities. Second, you can use captured mindworms to defend your cities or take neighbouring cities at the early stage of the game. Third, Gaians tend to have good relationships with PK, UoP, even Spartans, so use diplomacy to your advantage.
Anyway, just my $.02.
KenAshford posted 02-28-99 04:36 PM ET
Thanks for the posts. What I had in mind though was total pacifism. Ghandi-esque. Meaning no attacking by me, even in a defensive mode (i.e., needlejetting an incoming transport of enemy units before they land on my on continent.
I, too, tend to play a peaceful diplomatic route, but that never prevented me from taking cities here and there when the opportunity arose (okay, sometimes more than a city "here and there"), or pre-emptive strikes against enemy hordes on my border. But what I am talking about is a self-imposed "rule" where I never move any of my units onto a space occupied by an enemy unit or city -- total pacifism.
Which would mean that if someone started raping my lands, the only way out would be to "settle" for peace without firing a shot. Has anyone tried this?
Provost Pyrexian posted 03-01-99 04:16 AM ET
Wow, that's a tall order. My perception is that total non-violence can be an effective way to promote change within a nation, but not so effective a way to run a nation in its relation with others-- too many rivals who would rather overrun you and have your whole territory rather than just what you are offering to buy them off. Notice how militaristic India has become since Gandhi's time.
I think the only way to do it would be to have a pact with a big military power and trust them to defend you. (That's in real-world terms-- I wouldn't trust the AI to defend me well even at Magnanimous relations.) Either that, or be very clever and lucky with your diplomacy and never get anyone mad at you. (Or frame your enemies to each other with probe teams-- if your concept of non-violence allows for that, and if you're willing to be blown away if you're caught, and if you can get that option to work in your copy of the game ;-) )
MoSe posted 03-01-99 06:24 AM ET
Look mom, can ride w/out hands!
Look mom, now w/out teeht!
Seriously now,
I wonder if that could be made an option like Iron Man.
OK for never using a unit in a field/base attack.
What about probes & diplomacy aggressiveness?
Would be against Gandhi's principles using non-violent methods as espionage (civil resistance, propagandha) to bring your enemies on your side? Or making the planet think that you're venomous, like hurting you is an atrocity?
I mean, would allow yourself to bribe opponents' units? Or cities (mind probe)? Or simply damage them (steal thechs or credits, sabotage)? Would it be legal to threaten?
As a former chess-player, I recall a famous sentence: "A threat is much more effective than its actuation(?)".
So does the fact that under no circumstance you would use a military unit to attack prevent you to deploy some strong units near a small weak opponent's base and order him to gracefully give it to you?
Ruthless pacifist
MariOne
Profitable Jack posted 03-01-99 06:41 AM ET
Sounds to me like this is the way I play all the time. Yes, play Morgan with four defensive units in a city. Researching the Build technologies is where you get Armor improvements, which I think says a lot when you consider that Morgan's priority is to Build. Later, tachyon field and perimeter defenses make you practically invincible inside your city. Problem is that the AI will figure out your strategy and start knocking out your terraforms. When you lose the echelon mirrors and solar collectors you're in trouble economy-wise. Probe teams work very well with Morgan but not against the Believers or Spartans.
hOOpiE posted 03-01-99 08:32 AM ET
yep.......
you can be pacifist all the way and still win. I normally do this. I take peacekeepers,
and basically expand like crazy, with just one defense unit in a city and build most of the projects that increase votes....
so i make peace with everyone and avoid conflict as much as possible, and when the time comes, i just vote myself governer or leader. Normally, together with my allies, i have enough votes to do this. I tried this on the 5th difficulty, whatever it is, and it works, Haven't tried it on transcend though.
Rasputin posted 03-01-99 07:15 PM ET
I like to play with a pacifist frame of mind in the game. However, no matter how peaceful I am in the game, one of those factions will declare vendetta against me, usually because of my social choices and the fact that I am a "potential threat" (Much farther than them in techs and Secret Projects.) Remember, a defensive unit in a city, if successful, will "kill" an attacking unit. That's not very pacifist; being completely pacifist is to just let them take the city (no defensive units!) Since you won't win the game that way, offensive units must be utilized until the offending factions see the error of their ways (surrender?) If you don't attack them, they will just continue to build units to pound you into the ground. In this game, sometimes the best defense in a good offense!
Wombat posted 03-01-99 08:02 PM ET
The main problem I found with trying to be a pacifist even when someone declared vendetta on me was that although my cities were too tough for him to capture, he went around killing every terraformer he could find, and I eventually had to fight back just to continue improving my cities.
CaptComal posted 03-01-99 10:57 PM ET
I have found that the FORMERS "remember" how many turns they have spent building something.
Thus, if an enemy approaches, it would be possible to cancel FORMERS orders ... move them into the city (stay on a road within 3 squares) ... then move them back later ... or onto another square on the other side. The next thing you build will have the number of turns already spent "working the land" applied to it.
Best Regards,
CaptComal
Puterdan posted 03-02-99 12:06 AM ET
I've played this way... I must admit I rarely go totally Attack free... You HAVE to attack large mindworm boils when planet attacks!
I've found that playing as Morgan there is a way to defend your formers... Build a regular former, quickly, then when it's don , Ctrl-U and upgrade it to an armored former, perhaps with the empath song special for mind worm attacks... when fusion power comes along, don't forget to upgrade those power plants. I've had an AI waste two or three units tring to kill a former!
Remember that certain armors are good against certain attacks while a couple are good against all attacks... Plasma steel is the first of these "binary" armors. Then probability sheath, then antimatter plate and stasis... I never bother using silksteel, photon wall or Neutronium on the non-combat units
Just my two cents
Danny
Antiam posted 03-02-99 11:37 AM ET
As the Hive in order to ensure a fairly peaceful planet I always have to destroy the Spartans and the Believers. Sure PK, UoP, and Gaians have some small squabbles, but I'm happily treatied with all of them on Librarian level.
Antiam
Putch posted 03-02-99 02:38 PM ET
You should play as the Peacekeepers, you'll get double votes in council meetings. Then get a large population, and make pacts w/ EVERYONE! and also form the global trade pact. I almost did this exact strategy w/ the spartans! but they just make it SOO easy to beat the sh*t out of anyone.
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Author	Topic: Pacifist - winning without armies
KenAshford	posted 02-28-99 01:30 PM ET Just for thrills, I've been thinking about trying to win a game without building any offensive units at all (just one or two defensive sentinels for each city). Any thoughts about factions/strategy? Obviously, the way to win is not to get into fights -- that in part will depend on geography. But geography aside, the first question is what faction. I first thought about playing as Deidre, since that faction is closest to being pacifistic. But I'm thinking also maybe Morgan, since I can "buy" friends and ensure peace. Has anyone tried this? I'd be interested in hearing your "war stories" (well, "peace stories" I guess).
player1	posted 02-28-99 02:48 PM ET If im understanding what you are proposing; yes, the game can be won without being an aggressive warmonger. As to using only "DEFENSIVE" units to protect your holdings, I think that that's a bad idea. There are many situations where an "offensive" unit can play a crucial defensive role. A needlejet equipped with a deep radar, for instance, can be used to patrol the waters around your territory for enemy troop transports and stop them from landing. The needlejet is undeniably a completely "offensive" unit (ie: it is very poor when defending against ground units in a city), but is an essential part of any defense. I have routinely played Civ and Alpha on the highest difficulty levels without invading any of my neighbors, and won. So what you are proposing is possible; it's actually pretty fun! But you're going to need those "offensive" units, too!
SenseiPhoenix	posted 02-28-99 03:29 PM ET To tell the truth, I'm rather pacificstic as well. One way to win that way is, obviously, to play diplomat. Keep your neighbors close, and go for social engineering goals that are close to those of your neighbors. Also, when they get nasty, pay them. It's usually only a small amount, and you can usually get off by paying a lesser amount. Then there's, of course, geography, but that's mostly luck. Of course, not building bases too close to neighbors is important, as is keeping out of their space. Don't be stingy and keep yourself at least 2 defenders in each base, and you should do fine. And of course the best way is to PLUG play a multiplayer game with alliance rules PLUG hehe.
Rong	posted 02-28-99 03:30 PM ET I think this strategy can work, and perhaps works best for Gaians. At the beginning of the game, build 4-5 cities, then use one or two with high productions to build secret projects, and the rest just churning out colony pods after pods. If you are on a big continent, grad as much land as you can. If you are on a small island, things are going to be tougher, you need to build transport as early as possible. In the mean time use the formers (I usually build one for each city) to build road to link all the cities together. When you can't expand any more, beefing up the defense and build a few strong offensive units as mobile force. Needlejets would be especially useful. The reason why it works best as Gaians. First, because of Gaians' high efficiency, there is not as much penalty when you have lots of far away cities. Second, you can use captured mindworms to defend your cities or take neighbouring cities at the early stage of the game. Third, Gaians tend to have good relationships with PK, UoP, even Spartans, so use diplomacy to your advantage. Anyway, just my $.02.
KenAshford	posted 02-28-99 04:36 PM ET Thanks for the posts. What I had in mind though was total pacifism. Ghandi-esque. Meaning no attacking by me, even in a defensive mode (i.e., needlejetting an incoming transport of enemy units before they land on my on continent. I, too, tend to play a peaceful diplomatic route, but that never prevented me from taking cities here and there when the opportunity arose (okay, sometimes more than a city "here and there"), or pre-emptive strikes against enemy hordes on my border. But what I am talking about is a self-imposed "rule" where I never move any of my units onto a space occupied by an enemy unit or city -- total pacifism. Which would mean that if someone started raping my lands, the only way out would be to "settle" for peace without firing a shot. Has anyone tried this?
Provost Pyrexian	posted 03-01-99 04:16 AM ET Wow, that's a tall order. My perception is that total non-violence can be an effective way to promote change within a nation, but not so effective a way to run a nation in its relation with others-- too many rivals who would rather overrun you and have your whole territory rather than just what you are offering to buy them off. Notice how militaristic India has become since Gandhi's time. I think the only way to do it would be to have a pact with a big military power and trust them to defend you. (That's in real-world terms-- I wouldn't trust the AI to defend me well even at Magnanimous relations.) Either that, or be very clever and lucky with your diplomacy and never get anyone mad at you. (Or frame your enemies to each other with probe teams-- if your concept of non-violence allows for that, and if you're willing to be blown away if you're caught, and if you can get that option to work in your copy of the game ;-) )
MoSe	posted 03-01-99 06:24 AM ET Look mom, can ride w/out hands! Look mom, now w/out teeht! Seriously now, I wonder if that could be made an option like Iron Man. OK for never using a unit in a field/base attack. What about probes & diplomacy aggressiveness? Would be against Gandhi's principles using non-violent methods as espionage (civil resistance, propagandha) to bring your enemies on your side? Or making the planet think that you're venomous, like hurting you is an atrocity? I mean, would allow yourself to bribe opponents' units? Or cities (mind probe)? Or simply damage them (steal thechs or credits, sabotage)? Would it be legal to threaten? As a former chess-player, I recall a famous sentence: "A threat is much more effective than its actuation(?)". So does the fact that under no circumstance you would use a military unit to attack prevent you to deploy some strong units near a small weak opponent's base and order him to gracefully give it to you? Ruthless pacifist MariOne
Profitable Jack	posted 03-01-99 06:41 AM ET Sounds to me like this is the way I play all the time. Yes, play Morgan with four defensive units in a city. Researching the Build technologies is where you get Armor improvements, which I think says a lot when you consider that Morgan's priority is to Build. Later, tachyon field and perimeter defenses make you practically invincible inside your city. Problem is that the AI will figure out your strategy and start knocking out your terraforms. When you lose the echelon mirrors and solar collectors you're in trouble economy-wise. Probe teams work very well with Morgan but not against the Believers or Spartans.
hOOpiE	posted 03-01-99 08:32 AM ET yep....... you can be pacifist all the way and still win. I normally do this. I take peacekeepers, and basically expand like crazy, with just one defense unit in a city and build most of the projects that increase votes.... so i make peace with everyone and avoid conflict as much as possible, and when the time comes, i just vote myself governer or leader. Normally, together with my allies, i have enough votes to do this. I tried this on the 5th difficulty, whatever it is, and it works, Haven't tried it on transcend though.
Rasputin	posted 03-01-99 07:15 PM ET I like to play with a pacifist frame of mind in the game. However, no matter how peaceful I am in the game, one of those factions will declare vendetta against me, usually because of my social choices and the fact that I am a "potential threat" (Much farther than them in techs and Secret Projects.) Remember, a defensive unit in a city, if successful, will "kill" an attacking unit. That's not very pacifist; being completely pacifist is to just let them take the city (no defensive units!) Since you won't win the game that way, offensive units must be utilized until the offending factions see the error of their ways (surrender?) If you don't attack them, they will just continue to build units to pound you into the ground. In this game, sometimes the best defense in a good offense!
Wombat	posted 03-01-99 08:02 PM ET The main problem I found with trying to be a pacifist even when someone declared vendetta on me was that although my cities were too tough for him to capture, he went around killing every terraformer he could find, and I eventually had to fight back just to continue improving my cities.
CaptComal	posted 03-01-99 10:57 PM ET I have found that the FORMERS "remember" how many turns they have spent building something. Thus, if an enemy approaches, it would be possible to cancel FORMERS orders ... move them into the city (stay on a road within 3 squares) ... then move them back later ... or onto another square on the other side. The next thing you build will have the number of turns already spent "working the land" applied to it. Best Regards, CaptComal
Puterdan	posted 03-02-99 12:06 AM ET I've played this way... I must admit I rarely go totally Attack free... You HAVE to attack large mindworm boils when planet attacks! I've found that playing as Morgan there is a way to defend your formers... Build a regular former, quickly, then when it's don , Ctrl-U and upgrade it to an armored former, perhaps with the empath song special for mind worm attacks... when fusion power comes along, don't forget to upgrade those power plants. I've had an AI waste two or three units tring to kill a former! Remember that certain armors are good against certain attacks while a couple are good against all attacks... Plasma steel is the first of these "binary" armors. Then probability sheath, then antimatter plate and stasis... I never bother using silksteel, photon wall or Neutronium on the non-combat units Just my two cents Danny
Antiam	posted 03-02-99 11:37 AM ET As the Hive in order to ensure a fairly peaceful planet I always have to destroy the Spartans and the Believers. Sure PK, UoP, and Gaians have some small squabbles, but I'm happily treatied with all of them on Librarian level. Antiam
Putch	posted 03-02-99 02:38 PM ET You should play as the Peacekeepers, you'll get double votes in council meetings. Then get a large population, and make pacts w/ EVERYONE! and also form the global trade pact. I almost did this exact strategy w/ the spartans! but they just make it SOO easy to beat the sh*t out of anyone.