Howitzers vs. Arty - Alpha Centauri Forums

  Alpha Centauri Forums
  The Game
  Howitzers vs. Arty

profile | register | prefs | faq | search

Author Topic:   Howitzers vs. Arty

sandworm posted 02-27-99 11:30 PM ET
There seems to be a lot of negative comparisons to CivII here, I thought I'd put my two cents in...
I think the SMAC artillery system beats the old CivII Howitzers as far as game balance is concerned. Most of my CivII games involved defending my cities as well as possible while researching what I needed to build howitzers, and then building a dozen of them with a few defensive units and rolling over the other groups walled, heavily defended cities. The arty in SMAC is much more realistic and keeps me honest in terms of building a balanced military.
Xerxes314 posted 02-28-99 12:59 AM ET
I agree. It seems like there's more in SMAC that encourages the use of combined arms. You need rovers to pick off units in the open, artillery to weaken city defenders, and then infantry to capture the city.
On the other hand, I think air power is not balanced as well as the other elements. I tend to amass a few missle needlejets which are rolling over anybody trying to defend enemy cities. Then a fast-moving unit races over for a kill. Maybe bombers should work more like artillery. Any ideas?
sandworm posted 02-28-99 02:44 AM ET
Air power works just like you said for me too, at first, but the AI seems to adapt by producing AAA units which helps a lot unless I've started putting the big guns on my aircraft (better than chaos guns, anyhow).
Deadron posted 02-28-99 03:25 AM ET
There have been a lot of complaints about artillery not being very powerful, but I think the artillery works exactly like it's supposed to.
The fact is, artillery is an inexact attack, designed to "soften up" the enemy for the real attack. But historically artillery could never do more than make the enemy run for cover. There are many stories of shelling an entrenched hill for days on end, then rushing the hill only to get shot up by all the enemy that just dug in and sat out the artillery.
Yet it still has it's purposes -- having a few artillery in your attack force means you can send out a party that seriously injures units from a distance, then finishes them off with infantry up close. This can seriously reduce your losses, since an enemy at half strength isn't going to hurt you much.
Spartacus posted 02-28-99 03:52 AM ET
Can anyone explain why the long range fire command does not work from 2 squares away for my artillery units. Instead I have to move right up to the city, where I am a sitting duck, before it will fire. Is this a bug or does it require some additional tech, or what?
sandworm posted 02-28-99 08:01 AM ET
I really had to work on my "aim" with the crosshairs to hit the square I wanted at first. Arty seems to "miss" on its own sometimes, causing collateral damage to structures adjacent to the city too (nice touch, if its true!), although this could still be my aim.
Antiam posted 02-28-99 01:36 PM ET
As to the last two posts.
Sparta, are you hitting the 'F' key when it's your artillery's turn? That should give you a cross hair two squares around your unit and a red don't sign elsewhere. Additionally there's a bug that still lets you fire if the cursor is past the two square limit.
Sandworm, the trick with all the cursors is to pretend they don't change from the normal arrow. The 'click spot' is always in the top left corner, so if you try to use the center you'll often hit another square.
Otherwise, I like the new artillery system. Especially being able to destroy terrain enhancements, including sensors. As to air power I haven't yet decided. I'm still playing on the lower levels and the AI is quick to put SAM units out, but I've yet to be attacked with aircraft.
Antiam
sandworm posted 02-28-99 03:11 PM ET
Thanks for the tip, might help if I aimed at what I wanted to hit, huh?
Burns posted 03-01-99 09:19 AM ET
Sandworm: yeah, aiming tends to make attacks just that much more effective
and Antiam: playing on trancend level, i was attacked by aircraft quite a lot, and that wasnt too much fun, as i didnt have the tech yet (was peacekeepers). Also, being missiled wasnt really a picnic either hehe
just to let you know the ai *does* use aircraft.
Burns
Went back to librarian level after that...
cousLee posted 03-01-99 09:32 AM ET
the only problem i have is it seems i get "artillery failed" way too many times. about half time time i get the fail message, the game don't even give me the "boom". it may be a bug regarding the second half. does movement points left have any thing to do with the sucess rate of the arty attack? (and yes, i would have at least some mve pts left, even if only 2/3 or 1/3). when arty does work, i think is was designed correctly. the civ2 howitzer is way unbalanced, but then again so is the city wall bonus.
Brain posted 03-01-99 03:48 PM ET
The artillery in SMAC is a far more realistic model for artillery fighting then CIV2. Some suggestions for making it better, First Get a unit that looks like arty, I don't know how may times I have attacked a unit with my arty battery thinking it was infantry. Second, get rid of the arty duel, if I fire arty into a city with anther arty unit, it should take damage just like any other unit within the city. Third, extend the arty range to 3 or 4 squares, Arty is a long range weapon, the hole idea is to hit the bad guy from a long way out while he can't hit back. Fourth, if you can maintain fire on a city or unit over several turns, it should have a temporary effect on his morale. Sit in your fox hole for several days getting pummelled while you can't hit back, guaranteed morale will take a nosedive.
Rong posted 03-01-99 04:13 PM ET
To cousLee, the arty can only reduce a unit's strength to half. So if every unit in the enemy base has been reduced to half of its stength, you won't hear the "boom". It's time to move in for the kill.
Lazarus posted 03-01-99 05:25 PM ET
Brain:
"Second, get rid of the arty duel, if I fire arty into a city with anther arty unit, it should take damage just like any other unit within the city."
Actually, this models counterbattery fire, which is the way modern arty combat works. When you fire, you reveal the position of your own batteries and the enemy arty can be called in against your emplacements.
"Third, extend the arty range to 3 or 4 squares, Arty is a long range weapon, the hole idea is to hit the bad guy from a long way out while he can't hit back."
In SMAC, 2 squares IS a long way. Think of it this way: when units are adjacent, they're right next to each other. When units are one square apart, they're like 200 miles away. That's quite a distance for arty fire. Even if you look at center-of-square to center-of-square, a distance of 2 is actually three times farther away than a distance of 1. I think SMAC is fairly realistic here, as well. Arty is long-range, but it's still tactical, not strategic.
"Fourth, if you can maintain fire on a city
or unit over several turns, it should have a temporary effect on his morale."
Well.... not a bad idea, but I think that unit 'morale' is really meant to model training and discipline, not 'morale' per se. As such, it would abstract many effects, one of which is the disruptive effect of arty fire on morale. Since arty fire already does damage (which we may take to be the abstracted total distuption effect it causes), I think the model is OK. It's just very abstract. You have to abstract many details in a game as high-level as SMAC or you'd get bogged down too easily.
Wombat posted 03-02-99 12:07 AM ET
In reference to airpower being too strong. It isn't in the documentation anywhere that I could find, but I noticed in the combat display that a unit in a city with an aerospace complex receives a 100% on defence against air attack. Combined with an AAA unit, I've seen defence strengths of over 40 in cities, so I don't think air units are superweapons.
henriks posted 03-02-99 05:08 AM ET
Don't forget the one very important fact:
If a unit is attacked, it cannot heal in the next round. A continuous artillery barrage on a town will ensure that the defenders are
worn down and ripe when your assault force moves in!
Patrick2 posted 03-02-99 09:00 AM ET
The peacekeepers had a continent right close to the bottom of my uninhabited continent.
So with 10 terraformers and 3 colony pods I built 3 cities with a monorail line going out there. After that I shiped about 17 tachyon attack choppers along with 10 paratroopers and took their cities with no problem, one attack chooper could take out all their defenders in one turn because the helicopters' turn doesn't end after an attack like needlejets do
George posted 03-02-99 03:37 PM ET
To Patrick, What level are you playing?
In thinker level where I am playing, the AI is quite well done. A singal chaos inteceptor in a gaian town cause me 3 choppers before I took it out. There is large numbers of AAA units. And one event that really win me respect for the AI:
I was attacking Miriam, she has a large AAA defense. But I was still on the verge of wiping her out with needlejets, interceptors, Chaos rovers and artilleries. Then she hits me, her probe team buy the bases with the most interceptors. Any the balance of air power suddenly swifted. I was almost driven back to the sea. But now I have Hunter-seeker, and she's gonna pay...
George
Brain posted 03-06-99 01:01 AM ET
Lazarus,
I understand your point on counter battery arty fire, yes as soon as you fire your arty, the other side fires back, with arty, air, or the kicthen sink. but they are never duels to the death.
I also understand that two squares is a long way, but when the computer fires arty at me, I just run a unit out of the city and stomp him. At two squares this is very easy. My though was to make it a little harder to get to.
I will conscede to your third point on morale and training, now that I think about it you are correct, Henriks also makes a good point.
sandworm posted 03-06-99 10:14 AM ET
Most "real" situations place arty behind a fighting front of other units, the idea being you can't get to the arty w/o going through the army. They're not meant to be front line units, but the AI doesn't seem to get this. They DO stop 2 squares from the city, but often have no support, easy for a fast rover to destroy and still return to the safety of the perim. defense.
I think the arty just seems dumb, b/c the AI doesn't use it properly. Support with infantry. You could even move a garrison with the arty as a group to cut costs.
Maybe units adjacent to arty could act as "interceptors" to defend them? Maybe too unbalancing, and something that may make play unrealistic: when an infantry unit two squares away races through two high move cost wilderness squares to intercept you attacking an artillery unit.
To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


Hop to:

Contact Us | Alpha Centauri Home

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.18
© Madrona Park, Inc., 1998.

Author	Topic: Howitzers vs. Arty
sandworm	posted 02-27-99 11:30 PM ET There seems to be a lot of negative comparisons to CivII here, I thought I'd put my two cents in... I think the SMAC artillery system beats the old CivII Howitzers as far as game balance is concerned. Most of my CivII games involved defending my cities as well as possible while researching what I needed to build howitzers, and then building a dozen of them with a few defensive units and rolling over the other groups walled, heavily defended cities. The arty in SMAC is much more realistic and keeps me honest in terms of building a balanced military.
Xerxes314	posted 02-28-99 12:59 AM ET I agree. It seems like there's more in SMAC that encourages the use of combined arms. You need rovers to pick off units in the open, artillery to weaken city defenders, and then infantry to capture the city. On the other hand, I think air power is not balanced as well as the other elements. I tend to amass a few missle needlejets which are rolling over anybody trying to defend enemy cities. Then a fast-moving unit races over for a kill. Maybe bombers should work more like artillery. Any ideas?
sandworm	posted 02-28-99 02:44 AM ET Air power works just like you said for me too, at first, but the AI seems to adapt by producing AAA units which helps a lot unless I've started putting the big guns on my aircraft (better than chaos guns, anyhow).
Deadron	posted 02-28-99 03:25 AM ET There have been a lot of complaints about artillery not being very powerful, but I think the artillery works exactly like it's supposed to. The fact is, artillery is an inexact attack, designed to "soften up" the enemy for the real attack. But historically artillery could never do more than make the enemy run for cover. There are many stories of shelling an entrenched hill for days on end, then rushing the hill only to get shot up by all the enemy that just dug in and sat out the artillery. Yet it still has it's purposes -- having a few artillery in your attack force means you can send out a party that seriously injures units from a distance, then finishes them off with infantry up close. This can seriously reduce your losses, since an enemy at half strength isn't going to hurt you much.
Spartacus	posted 02-28-99 03:52 AM ET Can anyone explain why the long range fire command does not work from 2 squares away for my artillery units. Instead I have to move right up to the city, where I am a sitting duck, before it will fire. Is this a bug or does it require some additional tech, or what?
sandworm	posted 02-28-99 08:01 AM ET I really had to work on my "aim" with the crosshairs to hit the square I wanted at first. Arty seems to "miss" on its own sometimes, causing collateral damage to structures adjacent to the city too (nice touch, if its true!), although this could still be my aim.
Antiam	posted 02-28-99 01:36 PM ET As to the last two posts. Sparta, are you hitting the 'F' key when it's your artillery's turn? That should give you a cross hair two squares around your unit and a red don't sign elsewhere. Additionally there's a bug that still lets you fire if the cursor is past the two square limit. Sandworm, the trick with all the cursors is to pretend they don't change from the normal arrow. The 'click spot' is always in the top left corner, so if you try to use the center you'll often hit another square. Otherwise, I like the new artillery system. Especially being able to destroy terrain enhancements, including sensors. As to air power I haven't yet decided. I'm still playing on the lower levels and the AI is quick to put SAM units out, but I've yet to be attacked with aircraft. Antiam
sandworm	posted 02-28-99 03:11 PM ET Thanks for the tip, might help if I aimed at what I wanted to hit, huh?
Burns	posted 03-01-99 09:19 AM ET Sandworm: yeah, aiming tends to make attacks just that much more effective and Antiam: playing on trancend level, i was attacked by aircraft quite a lot, and that wasnt too much fun, as i didnt have the tech yet (was peacekeepers). Also, being missiled wasnt really a picnic either hehe just to let you know the ai does use aircraft. Burns Went back to librarian level after that...
cousLee	posted 03-01-99 09:32 AM ET the only problem i have is it seems i get "artillery failed" way too many times. about half time time i get the fail message, the game don't even give me the "boom". it may be a bug regarding the second half. does movement points left have any thing to do with the sucess rate of the arty attack? (and yes, i would have at least some mve pts left, even if only 2/3 or 1/3). when arty does work, i think is was designed correctly. the civ2 howitzer is way unbalanced, but then again so is the city wall bonus.
Brain	posted 03-01-99 03:48 PM ET The artillery in SMAC is a far more realistic model for artillery fighting then CIV2. Some suggestions for making it better, First Get a unit that looks like arty, I don't know how may times I have attacked a unit with my arty battery thinking it was infantry. Second, get rid of the arty duel, if I fire arty into a city with anther arty unit, it should take damage just like any other unit within the city. Third, extend the arty range to 3 or 4 squares, Arty is a long range weapon, the hole idea is to hit the bad guy from a long way out while he can't hit back. Fourth, if you can maintain fire on a city or unit over several turns, it should have a temporary effect on his morale. Sit in your fox hole for several days getting pummelled while you can't hit back, guaranteed morale will take a nosedive.
Rong	posted 03-01-99 04:13 PM ET To cousLee, the arty can only reduce a unit's strength to half. So if every unit in the enemy base has been reduced to half of its stength, you won't hear the "boom". It's time to move in for the kill.
Lazarus	posted 03-01-99 05:25 PM ET Brain: "Second, get rid of the arty duel, if I fire arty into a city with anther arty unit, it should take damage just like any other unit within the city." Actually, this models counterbattery fire, which is the way modern arty combat works. When you fire, you reveal the position of your own batteries and the enemy arty can be called in against your emplacements. "Third, extend the arty range to 3 or 4 squares, Arty is a long range weapon, the hole idea is to hit the bad guy from a long way out while he can't hit back." In SMAC, 2 squares IS a long way. Think of it this way: when units are adjacent, they're right next to each other. When units are one square apart, they're like 200 miles away. That's quite a distance for arty fire. Even if you look at center-of-square to center-of-square, a distance of 2 is actually three times farther away than a distance of 1. I think SMAC is fairly realistic here, as well. Arty is long-range, but it's still tactical, not strategic. "Fourth, if you can maintain fire on a city or unit over several turns, it should have a temporary effect on his morale." Well.... not a bad idea, but I think that unit 'morale' is really meant to model training and discipline, not 'morale' per se. As such, it would abstract many effects, one of which is the disruptive effect of arty fire on morale. Since arty fire already does damage (which we may take to be the abstracted total distuption effect it causes), I think the model is OK. It's just very abstract. You have to abstract many details in a game as high-level as SMAC or you'd get bogged down too easily.
Wombat	posted 03-02-99 12:07 AM ET In reference to airpower being too strong. It isn't in the documentation anywhere that I could find, but I noticed in the combat display that a unit in a city with an aerospace complex receives a 100% on defence against air attack. Combined with an AAA unit, I've seen defence strengths of over 40 in cities, so I don't think air units are superweapons.
henriks	posted 03-02-99 05:08 AM ET Don't forget the one very important fact: If a unit is attacked, it cannot heal in the next round. A continuous artillery barrage on a town will ensure that the defenders are worn down and ripe when your assault force moves in!
Patrick2	posted 03-02-99 09:00 AM ET The peacekeepers had a continent right close to the bottom of my uninhabited continent. So with 10 terraformers and 3 colony pods I built 3 cities with a monorail line going out there. After that I shiped about 17 tachyon attack choppers along with 10 paratroopers and took their cities with no problem, one attack chooper could take out all their defenders in one turn because the helicopters' turn doesn't end after an attack like needlejets do
George	posted 03-02-99 03:37 PM ET To Patrick, What level are you playing? In thinker level where I am playing, the AI is quite well done. A singal chaos inteceptor in a gaian town cause me 3 choppers before I took it out. There is large numbers of AAA units. And one event that really win me respect for the AI: I was attacking Miriam, she has a large AAA defense. But I was still on the verge of wiping her out with needlejets, interceptors, Chaos rovers and artilleries. Then she hits me, her probe team buy the bases with the most interceptors. Any the balance of air power suddenly swifted. I was almost driven back to the sea. But now I have Hunter-seeker, and she's gonna pay... George
Brain	posted 03-06-99 01:01 AM ET Lazarus, I understand your point on counter battery arty fire, yes as soon as you fire your arty, the other side fires back, with arty, air, or the kicthen sink. but they are never duels to the death. I also understand that two squares is a long way, but when the computer fires arty at me, I just run a unit out of the city and stomp him. At two squares this is very easy. My though was to make it a little harder to get to. I will conscede to your third point on morale and training, now that I think about it you are correct, Henriks also makes a good point.
sandworm	posted 03-06-99 10:14 AM ET Most "real" situations place arty behind a fighting front of other units, the idea being you can't get to the arty w/o going through the army. They're not meant to be front line units, but the AI doesn't seem to get this. They DO stop 2 squares from the city, but often have no support, easy for a fast rover to destroy and still return to the safety of the perim. defense. I think the arty just seems dumb, b/c the AI doesn't use it properly. Support with infantry. You could even move a garrison with the arty as a group to cut costs. Maybe units adjacent to arty could act as "interceptors" to defend them? Maybe too unbalancing, and something that may make play unrealistic: when an infantry unit two squares away races through two high move cost wilderness squares to intercept you attacking an artillery unit.