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Author Topic:   An embarassment of riches

Scrubby posted 02-24-99 12:21 AM ET
Okay I waffled for a long while on where to post this topic but I settled in The Game since I felt it was more pertinent here (and not nearly polemic enough for non-SMAC forum -- jeez talk about spirited debate).
What I want to discuss is the fantastic era we are currently in for computer gaming. Let me review some current outstanding games of which SMAC is only the latest and greatest one... (forgive me Firaxis for mentioning other games here but...)

Starcraft...
I know all you rabid TBS fans are raring to claw my eyes out aren't you? But I think Starcraft is a classy product. It is cartoony (as someone recently put it) but damn fun and the internet play is great. Blizzard also supports it well. Sometimes I need a little fix of crazy action... It is darn fun.

Half-Life
Yeah I love this game. This was another classy product. Those who have played it know what I'm talking about. This was a fantastic GAME. Don't get too caught up in your gaming paradigms. This was no standard FPS. p.s. I never ever liked Quake or Quake II.

Thief: The Dark Project
This was also a really really good game. Totally immersive. I found it scarier than Half-Life. A total blast to finally AVOID action in an action game. Another non-traditional FPS -- a term which is outmoded anyways.

Grim Fandango
This was a hilarious little adventure which I am still playing through when I get the time and the hankering (actually I'm still playing Thief too..)

Baldur's Gate
Now I didn't think this would ever come out, nor do I think it is the best game of last year (that's Half-Life) but it is still an amazing game. Takes me back to those years of paper and pencil AD&D... ahhh. Depth to spare. (And I'm only halfway through cause guess what came out next...)

SMAC
This really tops it all off. The most addictive game of the bunch. Though it differs by type it shares a lot of commonality with the other games mentioned. It is IMMERSIVE. When you play you are totally oblivious to the outside world. Relatively BUG FREE. This really shouldn't be an achievement worthy of mention but in today's patching environment it really does matter. Great GAMEPLAY. Somewhat linked to immersiveness. All of these games are coherent and just plain "work". Great SUPPORT. Valve/Sierra, LucasArts, Looking Glass, BioWare all seem to really CARE about their product. Case in point, how many of you have had answers to posts on this board by JM or CP almost immediately? Professional game companies that seem to genuinely care about product and consumers.
I called this topic an embarassment of riches because for the first time in, what I feel is a long time, I have too many GOOOD games to play with seemingly many more good ones to come (Heroes III, Homeworld, Diablo II, Everquest, Giants etc.). This is a great feeling. It feels like games and game companies are maturing; the cream is rising to the top so to speak. I welcome comments about games I've mentioned or others. Thanks
Ender4000 posted 02-24-99 08:46 AM ET
well I'd have to put my plug in for age of empires. Its a whole lot better than Starcraft IMO. Starcraft got boring after about a month because of the stale maps and the tank rush mentality.
Baldur's Gate is a darn fun game but after playing it a lot I have to say it wasn't as good as I thought. Its a nice little monster romp, with pretty graphics and a fun feel but it has very little real role-playing and if anything set the RPG gaming back a few steps. Other products were starting to key in on making the RP experience better, this just took a poor system and threw some pretty graphics on it. The people that made it are obviosly skilled since the game was still very fun though.
Other games I haven't played, not much of a shooter fan and BG and SMAC have been taking all my time.
kjchen posted 02-24-99 05:21 PM ET
If anything, it's made my life quite difficult. Post-Christmas, I divided my time between Brood War, Thief, Half-Life, and Grim Fandango. Soon thereafter, I stopped playing most of them for Baldur's Gate. I haven't played Baldur's Gate for over a week because of SMAC.
Now that the initial warm fuzzy glows have worn off a bit, I can actually pull myself away from SMAC to play some Baldur's Gate, and leave Baldur's Gate alone long enough to fire up Half-Life, and take a break from Half-Life to play Grim Fandango, but can our intrepid hero manage to polish off Descent: Freespace before X-Wing: Alliance shows up on store shelves?
Thank God I managed to complete the main quest in Zelda 64: The Ocarina of Time before all this came down...
Imran Siddiqui posted 02-24-99 08:46 PM ET
Ender? I can't believe that you weren't a fan of BG! I think it is the greatest CRPG I have EVER played (includes Fallout and Fallout 2). The depth, the immersiveness! Changing your alignment can change the whole game for you, as can changing which NPCs you use. Excellent, excellent game. The best on the list by Scubby (execept for SMAC, of course).
Imran Siddiqui
Scrubby posted 02-24-99 08:55 PM ET
KJchen:
Yep, I TOTALLY forgot about Zelda. (Not surprising really since this is a PC game forum) But there I only got about three quarters through before I got Half-Life.
Like I said it's a good time to be a gamer...

Ender4000 posted 02-25-99 07:45 AM ET
My problem with Baldurs' Gate was its a follow the dots game. A couple times you actually had descisions that modified what happened but these times were rare, and didn't effect the final story line (note I'm only up to the 5th chapter so this could change my opinion) The game is very fun, I'm not a big fan of the D&D system, it was fine when I was a kid but its just not very good. I wish more of the quests could of turned out more than 1 way though, that way when you played it a second time it would be different.
Glak posted 02-25-99 10:53 AM ET
Ahhh Heathen! Yeah I'm one of those rabid Starcraft fans who has to get into everything that involves SC.
Scrubby: Calling the units cartoony is a little bit of an exageration, I would call then drawn. I really like the SC units, they just look good. All of this 3d stuff is just a gimick (how do you spell that word?) and lets the artists slack off. Warcraft was cartoony yeah but SC isn't, it is just high quality art drawn by artists. They didn't just say "hey let's take the easy way out and go 3d"
Ender4000: There is no tank rush in SC, at least not a viable one. If you only played SC for a month I can see that you wouldn't know. SC is the most complex game that I know of and takes many months to learn, I am in the top 1% skill wise and I still have much to learn.
I also think that few people play SC to its full potential. Most people play on fastest which robs the game of strategy. They also tend to play on substandard maps. Yeah it's pathetic but that is just how people are.
Well if you want to go back to SC here is how to counter tanks:
As terran:
Marines (if there are only a few tanks) wraiths
tanks of your own.
Best terran counter: have a few tanks defending your base. You will be able to shoot him before he is sieged. Use scv to repair your tanks. As he is seiging he is vulnerable so you can run in with your units and take him out. If you have a spotter (a unit that let't the tank see farther) your tank can shoot a little farther than its sight range. Since he won't have a spotter You will be able to get many free shots in. If you have cloaked wraiths you should be able to deal with the situation quickly. Run in and take a few shots then run out. He will comsat but you will already be out of their. Then after it wears off run in again. Force his to waste comsat and then just kill the tanks. I assume that he has marines guarding his tanks. If he doesn't then you can just kill them with any unit. To have marines kill a tank right click next to the the tank. This will make your units run into the the tank's range. The tank will no longer be able to hit your guys. Other thanks might be able to but they will be hitting each other with the splash. If this is late game you should have lockdown so just cloak and lock all the tanks down.
As zerg:
Burrowed zerglings outside your base
hydralisks
mutalisks or guardians
queens with the broodling spell
Best zerg counter: Having zerglings burrowed outside your base is very good at stopping tanks. Once the bad guys show up just unburrow and rip those tanks apart. You can send in hydras to clean up. Send them in at the same time. If you have mutas you only need to worry about the marines. Guardians will crush this attack with ease because they outrange the marines by a lot. If you have queens with broodling then there should be no trouble at all.
As protoss:
Zealots, templar with psi-storm
Best protoss counter: Zealots and templar are pure tank killers. First you want to start off with a storm. Since tanks out range storm you will have to cause a diversion. Send in a zealot or two. The tanks will fire at the zealot giving your templar the chance to get one or maybe even two storms off. Don't focus on hitting the tanks, you just need to kill the units guarding the tank. Then run in a pack of zealots. Zealots will rip the tanks apart even before they unsiege. Even if you mess up a little the zealots will be able to finish off the tanks.
Ok I guess the main thing is scout a lot. If you scout (use your 9th probe) you will know what is coming and you will know how to counter it. Starcraft has no unbeatable strategy, especially now that they made a patch with over 65 changes just to improve gameplay. Brood War still has a few balance issues but it just came out. A new patch will be coming out for it soon.
A good way to become skilled (at any game) is to always play random. Specializing in one race (or faction I guess) leaves you weak, by playing all races you get a better sense of what works and what doesn't. If you are having trouble beating a terran strategy then by all means play a game as terran. Use that strategy and see how people counter it. Then you will know how to counter it.
Glak posted 02-25-99 10:56 AM ET
Scrubby: I noticed that you listed five companies and five games (unless my counting skills are failing me). What seems strange is that you didn't list Blizzard, the creators of SC. Blizzard is great aren't they? They post in the forums everyday and make a new map every week for people to play on. Ahhh..... they can do no wrong.
Scrubby posted 02-25-99 12:05 PM ET
In response Glak:
1. I didn't include Blizzard in the list because I had already mentioned they were great/awesome/etc. in the Starcraft blurb. I frankly think they are the best game company out there right now, followed closely by Valve (NOT Sierra).
2. Thanks for noticing the five games by five different companies. I think that was one of my key points that it isn't just one company pounding out the hits. There is quality in titles from many different genres and developers. It's a good thing.
3. As for the cartoony comment I must apologize. I self-censored myself because I was on this board. In truth I find the unit graphics there superior to any other game (granted I have yet to try Age of Empires which I've heard is graphically terrific) -- they really convey the right kind of action atmosphere. No criticism of SMAC, they had to accomodate the unit design functionality into the the graphics so that's okay. The mind worm boils look suitably terrifying as they grow!
Thanks.
Ender4000 posted 02-25-99 12:26 PM ET
sorry I didn't mean rushing with actual tanks. Most games of starcraft come down to everyone building one unit type and attacking with it. They pick a different unit type depending on the strategy but that is the majority of thier force. Yes they add in 1 or 2 of a couple support troops but not enough. When I played SC for the month or so I did play I could compete with everyone I played with, I'm sure there are nuances that only experts know but I just think there is more to AOE. I'm a big name in AOE and in almost every way I prefered it to SC. Guess thats just a matter of opinion though.
SC could really use random maps of some sort, more important resource gathering, tribute so teams meant something. These are 3 of the main things AOE has going for it over SC, IMO. Any game that you do the same thing to start with any time is flawed IMO.
So you dont' think I'm completely crazy I did enjoy starcraft while I played it, if I had never played AOE I might even be one of that 1% of the top players, but comparatively it just seems like too simplistic of a game to me.
Jingizu posted 02-25-99 04:18 PM ET
NOOOO, valve sux. (MY opinion)
They allways said that TeamFortress2 would be a cheap expansion for Half-Life, coming out arond march, and a multiplayer mod only (propably bots for sp)
and when they assumed they had sold about 70-90% of their total half life sales, they said that TF2 was a stand alone game coming out late99-early2000. ASSHOLES (still MY opinion)
sorry bout all that bad spelling, grammar and general english, cuz im from norway, and ain that good in english yet (im only 15)
Scrubby posted 02-25-99 07:58 PM ET
Jingizu:
As to Valve changing Team Fortress II's status to a standalone I don't see anything inherently deceptive in that. Plans change right? Did you buy Half-Life just for TF2? You still have Classic TF which will be available soon and for FREE. Half-Life by itself isn't too shabby either. Valve probably put a crapload of work into the game and realized that it wouldn't work well as an add-on so they bumped it up to standalone status. Would you prefer a lame online version of Half-Life or a cool workable TF2 by itself?
ps. I wish I could speak Norwegian as well as you speak English and I ain't 15 anymore...hehe.
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Author	Topic: An embarassment of riches
Scrubby	posted 02-24-99 12:21 AM ET Okay I waffled for a long while on where to post this topic but I settled in The Game since I felt it was more pertinent here (and not nearly polemic enough for non-SMAC forum -- jeez talk about spirited debate). What I want to discuss is the fantastic era we are currently in for computer gaming. Let me review some current outstanding games of which SMAC is only the latest and greatest one... (forgive me Firaxis for mentioning other games here but...) Starcraft... I know all you rabid TBS fans are raring to claw my eyes out aren't you? But I think Starcraft is a classy product. It is cartoony (as someone recently put it) but damn fun and the internet play is great. Blizzard also supports it well. Sometimes I need a little fix of crazy action... It is darn fun. Half-Life Yeah I love this game. This was another classy product. Those who have played it know what I'm talking about. This was a fantastic GAME. Don't get too caught up in your gaming paradigms. This was no standard FPS. p.s. I never ever liked Quake or Quake II. Thief: The Dark Project This was also a really really good game. Totally immersive. I found it scarier than Half-Life. A total blast to finally AVOID action in an action game. Another non-traditional FPS -- a term which is outmoded anyways. Grim Fandango This was a hilarious little adventure which I am still playing through when I get the time and the hankering (actually I'm still playing Thief too..) Baldur's Gate Now I didn't think this would ever come out, nor do I think it is the best game of last year (that's Half-Life) but it is still an amazing game. Takes me back to those years of paper and pencil AD&D... ahhh. Depth to spare. (And I'm only halfway through cause guess what came out next...) SMAC This really tops it all off. The most addictive game of the bunch. Though it differs by type it shares a lot of commonality with the other games mentioned. It is IMMERSIVE. When you play you are totally oblivious to the outside world. Relatively BUG FREE. This really shouldn't be an achievement worthy of mention but in today's patching environment it really does matter. Great GAMEPLAY. Somewhat linked to immersiveness. All of these games are coherent and just plain "work". Great SUPPORT. Valve/Sierra, LucasArts, Looking Glass, BioWare all seem to really CARE about their product. Case in point, how many of you have had answers to posts on this board by JM or CP almost immediately? Professional game companies that seem to genuinely care about product and consumers. I called this topic an embarassment of riches because for the first time in, what I feel is a long time, I have too many GOOOD games to play with seemingly many more good ones to come (Heroes III, Homeworld, Diablo II, Everquest, Giants etc.). This is a great feeling. It feels like games and game companies are maturing; the cream is rising to the top so to speak. I welcome comments about games I've mentioned or others. Thanks
Ender4000	posted 02-24-99 08:46 AM ET well I'd have to put my plug in for age of empires. Its a whole lot better than Starcraft IMO. Starcraft got boring after about a month because of the stale maps and the tank rush mentality. Baldur's Gate is a darn fun game but after playing it a lot I have to say it wasn't as good as I thought. Its a nice little monster romp, with pretty graphics and a fun feel but it has very little real role-playing and if anything set the RPG gaming back a few steps. Other products were starting to key in on making the RP experience better, this just took a poor system and threw some pretty graphics on it. The people that made it are obviosly skilled since the game was still very fun though. Other games I haven't played, not much of a shooter fan and BG and SMAC have been taking all my time.
kjchen	posted 02-24-99 05:21 PM ET If anything, it's made my life quite difficult. Post-Christmas, I divided my time between Brood War, Thief, Half-Life, and Grim Fandango. Soon thereafter, I stopped playing most of them for Baldur's Gate. I haven't played Baldur's Gate for over a week because of SMAC. Now that the initial warm fuzzy glows have worn off a bit, I can actually pull myself away from SMAC to play some Baldur's Gate, and leave Baldur's Gate alone long enough to fire up Half-Life, and take a break from Half-Life to play Grim Fandango, but can our intrepid hero manage to polish off Descent: Freespace before X-Wing: Alliance shows up on store shelves? Thank God I managed to complete the main quest in Zelda 64: The Ocarina of Time before all this came down...
Imran Siddiqui	posted 02-24-99 08:46 PM ET Ender? I can't believe that you weren't a fan of BG! I think it is the greatest CRPG I have EVER played (includes Fallout and Fallout 2). The depth, the immersiveness! Changing your alignment can change the whole game for you, as can changing which NPCs you use. Excellent, excellent game. The best on the list by Scubby (execept for SMAC, of course). Imran Siddiqui
Scrubby	posted 02-24-99 08:55 PM ET KJchen: Yep, I TOTALLY forgot about Zelda. (Not surprising really since this is a PC game forum) But there I only got about three quarters through before I got Half-Life. Like I said it's a good time to be a gamer...
Ender4000	posted 02-25-99 07:45 AM ET My problem with Baldurs' Gate was its a follow the dots game. A couple times you actually had descisions that modified what happened but these times were rare, and didn't effect the final story line (note I'm only up to the 5th chapter so this could change my opinion) The game is very fun, I'm not a big fan of the D&D system, it was fine when I was a kid but its just not very good. I wish more of the quests could of turned out more than 1 way though, that way when you played it a second time it would be different.
Glak	posted 02-25-99 10:53 AM ET Ahhh Heathen! Yeah I'm one of those rabid Starcraft fans who has to get into everything that involves SC. Scrubby: Calling the units cartoony is a little bit of an exageration, I would call then drawn. I really like the SC units, they just look good. All of this 3d stuff is just a gimick (how do you spell that word?) and lets the artists slack off. Warcraft was cartoony yeah but SC isn't, it is just high quality art drawn by artists. They didn't just say "hey let's take the easy way out and go 3d" Ender4000: There is no tank rush in SC, at least not a viable one. If you only played SC for a month I can see that you wouldn't know. SC is the most complex game that I know of and takes many months to learn, I am in the top 1% skill wise and I still have much to learn. I also think that few people play SC to its full potential. Most people play on fastest which robs the game of strategy. They also tend to play on substandard maps. Yeah it's pathetic but that is just how people are. Well if you want to go back to SC here is how to counter tanks: As terran: Marines (if there are only a few tanks) wraiths tanks of your own. Best terran counter: have a few tanks defending your base. You will be able to shoot him before he is sieged. Use scv to repair your tanks. As he is seiging he is vulnerable so you can run in with your units and take him out. If you have a spotter (a unit that let't the tank see farther) your tank can shoot a little farther than its sight range. Since he won't have a spotter You will be able to get many free shots in. If you have cloaked wraiths you should be able to deal with the situation quickly. Run in and take a few shots then run out. He will comsat but you will already be out of their. Then after it wears off run in again. Force his to waste comsat and then just kill the tanks. I assume that he has marines guarding his tanks. If he doesn't then you can just kill them with any unit. To have marines kill a tank right click next to the the tank. This will make your units run into the the tank's range. The tank will no longer be able to hit your guys. Other thanks might be able to but they will be hitting each other with the splash. If this is late game you should have lockdown so just cloak and lock all the tanks down. As zerg: Burrowed zerglings outside your base hydralisks mutalisks or guardians queens with the broodling spell Best zerg counter: Having zerglings burrowed outside your base is very good at stopping tanks. Once the bad guys show up just unburrow and rip those tanks apart. You can send in hydras to clean up. Send them in at the same time. If you have mutas you only need to worry about the marines. Guardians will crush this attack with ease because they outrange the marines by a lot. If you have queens with broodling then there should be no trouble at all. As protoss: Zealots, templar with psi-storm Best protoss counter: Zealots and templar are pure tank killers. First you want to start off with a storm. Since tanks out range storm you will have to cause a diversion. Send in a zealot or two. The tanks will fire at the zealot giving your templar the chance to get one or maybe even two storms off. Don't focus on hitting the tanks, you just need to kill the units guarding the tank. Then run in a pack of zealots. Zealots will rip the tanks apart even before they unsiege. Even if you mess up a little the zealots will be able to finish off the tanks. Ok I guess the main thing is scout a lot. If you scout (use your 9th probe) you will know what is coming and you will know how to counter it. Starcraft has no unbeatable strategy, especially now that they made a patch with over 65 changes just to improve gameplay. Brood War still has a few balance issues but it just came out. A new patch will be coming out for it soon. A good way to become skilled (at any game) is to always play random. Specializing in one race (or faction I guess) leaves you weak, by playing all races you get a better sense of what works and what doesn't. If you are having trouble beating a terran strategy then by all means play a game as terran. Use that strategy and see how people counter it. Then you will know how to counter it.
Glak	posted 02-25-99 10:56 AM ET Scrubby: I noticed that you listed five companies and five games (unless my counting skills are failing me). What seems strange is that you didn't list Blizzard, the creators of SC. Blizzard is great aren't they? They post in the forums everyday and make a new map every week for people to play on. Ahhh..... they can do no wrong.
Scrubby	posted 02-25-99 12:05 PM ET In response Glak: 1. I didn't include Blizzard in the list because I had already mentioned they were great/awesome/etc. in the Starcraft blurb. I frankly think they are the best game company out there right now, followed closely by Valve (NOT Sierra). 2. Thanks for noticing the five games by five different companies. I think that was one of my key points that it isn't just one company pounding out the hits. There is quality in titles from many different genres and developers. It's a good thing. 3. As for the cartoony comment I must apologize. I self-censored myself because I was on this board. In truth I find the unit graphics there superior to any other game (granted I have yet to try Age of Empires which I've heard is graphically terrific) -- they really convey the right kind of action atmosphere. No criticism of SMAC, they had to accomodate the unit design functionality into the the graphics so that's okay. The mind worm boils look suitably terrifying as they grow! Thanks.
Ender4000	posted 02-25-99 12:26 PM ET sorry I didn't mean rushing with actual tanks. Most games of starcraft come down to everyone building one unit type and attacking with it. They pick a different unit type depending on the strategy but that is the majority of thier force. Yes they add in 1 or 2 of a couple support troops but not enough. When I played SC for the month or so I did play I could compete with everyone I played with, I'm sure there are nuances that only experts know but I just think there is more to AOE. I'm a big name in AOE and in almost every way I prefered it to SC. Guess thats just a matter of opinion though. SC could really use random maps of some sort, more important resource gathering, tribute so teams meant something. These are 3 of the main things AOE has going for it over SC, IMO. Any game that you do the same thing to start with any time is flawed IMO. So you dont' think I'm completely crazy I did enjoy starcraft while I played it, if I had never played AOE I might even be one of that 1% of the top players, but comparatively it just seems like too simplistic of a game to me.
Jingizu	posted 02-25-99 04:18 PM ET NOOOO, valve sux. (MY opinion) They allways said that TeamFortress2 would be a cheap expansion for Half-Life, coming out arond march, and a multiplayer mod only (propably bots for sp) and when they assumed they had sold about 70-90% of their total half life sales, they said that TF2 was a stand alone game coming out late99-early2000. ASSHOLES (still MY opinion) sorry bout all that bad spelling, grammar and general english, cuz im from norway, and ain that good in english yet (im only 15)
Scrubby	posted 02-25-99 07:58 PM ET Jingizu: As to Valve changing Team Fortress II's status to a standalone I don't see anything inherently deceptive in that. Plans change right? Did you buy Half-Life just for TF2? You still have Classic TF which will be available soon and for FREE. Half-Life by itself isn't too shabby either. Valve probably put a crapload of work into the game and realized that it wouldn't work well as an add-on so they bumped it up to standalone status. Would you prefer a lame online version of Half-Life or a cool workable TF2 by itself? ps. I wish I could speak Norwegian as well as you speak English and I ain't 15 anymore...hehe.