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Author Topic:   Punishing Excellence

Razor posted 02-22-99 08:51 PM ET
The concept of the computer "cheating" in order to "level the playing field" has really gotten out of hand in SMAC. I was used to the fact that the computer would make minor cheats in CivII if the human player was way out ahead, but SMAC takes this concept to a whole new level. Like Wehrmacht, I have seen Hive missles come from impossibly far distances to destroy all military units in a city that I have spent many, many turns painstakeningly building up in preparation for an assualt. Or I have had 10, that's right, 10 Demon Boils come out of a fungus patch that wasn't there a second ago and put serious hurt on my core citys. The city's ecological damage factor? 0. Or the stock market crash if you build up too much wealth, or the solar flare if you have too many satilites. I can understand putting these things in on the higher diffucluty settings, but punishing good strategy so severly on the lower difficulty settings is really getting on my nerves. It is very frustrating to spend an entire game trying a particular stratgey only to have the program use some "gimmick" to render it totaly useless.
Shining1 posted 02-22-99 09:06 PM ET
Maybe you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket? - i.e try playing with multiple strategies in order to counter various threats.
It actually sounds like these are good fixes to punish the unimaginitive 'tank rush' methodology - players who do one thing so often they win by sheer repetition.
Yeah, the random events occasionally do suck, but they fall into the 'Sh*t happens' realm. (As for the Hive missiles, I don't know, but I'm concerned.)
Blackjack posted 02-22-99 09:10 PM ET
What level were you playing at ?
I think, after way too many hours at this truly Great game, the Mind Worm AI Routines are either broken or need serious tweeking.
Altering downward the Native Life Forms setting Level in a Custom Game seems to do nothing for the Activity .
Also the Worm Activity, at any Game Level, works inverse to the Activity Messages you get throughout the Game.
I know this is supposed to be an "Inteligent, Living planet " but it`s C3 is really too good at anything above Citizen Level :-)
Fenris posted 02-23-99 10:23 AM ET
You can always turn off the random events if they are becoming too bothersome. As far as the Hive missiles are concerned, it appears to be more of a bug than anything else...
Pragmatist posted 02-26-99 12:34 PM ET
I turned off the events after I was hit with multiple asteroid showers knocking out the solar collectors around all of my large cities. If I were able to devise a defense against this event I'd have left events on but I'm not a masochist and I was getting really tired of rebuilding all those collectors, in addition to which my pre-eminence in Research which I'd focused my entire game strategy on was lost.
Deadron posted 02-26-99 01:03 PM ET
I haven't encountered these items yet, but I would propose that the severity of some other random events be reduced.
I'm playing a game where, in the mid-to-end game, I got solar flares knocking out communications for something like 20 years. That's an awfully long time to not be able to negotiate, and it forced me to go on the warpath when I didn't want to. Not that that was bad in itself, it just seemed that maybe five years would have been a bit more reasonable...
Fenris posted 02-26-99 01:35 PM ET
I would like to point out that I've witnessed most of the random events effecting the computer factions also. In the game I'm currently playing I've witnessed the Hive get hit with meteor and hail showers, each time knocking out extensive fortifications (solar panels, farms, etc.) A volcano just exploded in Believer territory turning once fertile farmland into arid wastland. I too, have suffered under large attacks from mindworms and had fungus destroy enhancements, but to me this just adds atmosphere that this is an alien world with different rules. I haven't witnessed the AI favoring one faction over another. Also, the less you terraform, the less the Planet reacts...
Scrubby posted 02-26-99 01:42 PM ET
For those interested the Prima SMAC Guide has a couple of pages on how random events occur and to what frequency...
flurdy posted 03-01-99 10:30 AM ET
yep the missile thing is a bug for all AI that will be fixed in the patch.
George posted 03-01-99 06:54 PM ET
I am playing the second highest level and have not had any problems. Possible explaination? TREES!
My land is full of trees. All of my cities have tree farms and hybrid forests. 4 of my cities currently have population 16 (limited only by habitaion dome). and, get this, ZERO eco damage. And I am not even the Gaians. The planet must be taking notice in my good conducts and bestow proper rewards.
Geroge - A green hiver
MoSe posted 03-02-99 11:39 AM ET
well, George,
try to go for that Hab Domes, then complement it with an Elevator
and you'll see... even with your EcoResponsibility, same as mine.
quizara tafwid posted 03-02-99 02:03 PM ET
I've had bases with 41 pop and the beanstalk and only forests everywhere. Just keep your eco-damage at 0 and you're fine. (Of course this means you have at least half of your population as 'Transcends'. As far as I know, there isn't a random event called 'forest fire' :-). And, if Planet tries to send Demon Boils at you, the forests slow them down so you can attack them first. Also, use ground units to attack them because you'll destroy the whole stack with one attack whereas using copters or needle jets require multiple attacks.
Thanatos posted 03-02-99 02:17 PM ET
Quoted from Deadron: "I'm playing a game where, in the mid-to-end game, I got solar flares knocking out communications for something like 20 years. That's an awfully long time to not be able to negotiate, and it forced me to go on the warpath when I didn't want to. "
Tell me about it! I was playing a game as University, and decided to try for a diplomatic victory. I fell short, so I took over a few more Hive cities and tried again. I was told that I had to wait at least 20 years before trying again. Fine, so I start to consolidate now that I know I have enough votes. So what happens? On year 19, the solar flares come and knock out all communication, and I can't declare the diplomatic victory! Annoyed, I started going for the military victory. One interesting thing...I don't think the flares really lasted 20 years, I think it was more like 15, so maybe the game gives you 20 as an estimate, and the time is really 20 +/- x or something. Not sure. Anyway, it was annoying but amusing all at the same time.
Thanatos
Morganstern posted 03-03-99 03:21 PM ET
I'm also experiencing over-compensation by the computer, similar to the incidents reported by Razor, et al. in this thread. I'm dominating near the end of the game, and could pull the plug with the Supreme Ruler or destroy other factions options at any time. The computer opts to compensate by denying me the tech for Habitation Domes, despite the fact that I'm designating Build in my research options, and have surpassed this level for all other research categories. As a result, my cities are stuck on size 11, despite the fact that I built the Cloning Vats at significant cost.
This is beyond random selection, and there's no reason for it. I'm just playing my second game, and would like to see what the techs and game are like in the upper research and city size levels. This way I learn how big cities can get and how to manage them. I'm playing at the easy second level, and am fully aware that I could not be anywhere near this dominant (and would probably lose) at the upper difficulty levels. There is no need for the game to remind me of this. This feature of SMAC gives too much an appearance of the computer "cheating" and distracts from the better qualities of the game.
Firaxis has repeated this rather annoying element that was also present in CIVII, although to a seemingly lesser degree. Firaxis acts like a ref who calls all the fouls on the B-ball team that is winning by 20 points. It's just not sporting. This is an unnecessary conceptual flaw in the game, which I would hope would be corrected in future games and patches.

Scrubby posted 03-03-99 03:41 PM ET
Yeah I had Super Tensile Solids(Hab Domes) come up as the last (or next to last) tech discovered too in a game. I didn't think much of it at the time since my growth was slowed as the Gaians but upon glancing at the tech poster here is seems really weird that this was the last tech I discovered. Is this really the computer cheating us or a bug or what?
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Author	Topic: Punishing Excellence
Razor	posted 02-22-99 08:51 PM ET The concept of the computer "cheating" in order to "level the playing field" has really gotten out of hand in SMAC. I was used to the fact that the computer would make minor cheats in CivII if the human player was way out ahead, but SMAC takes this concept to a whole new level. Like Wehrmacht, I have seen Hive missles come from impossibly far distances to destroy all military units in a city that I have spent many, many turns painstakeningly building up in preparation for an assualt. Or I have had 10, that's right, 10 Demon Boils come out of a fungus patch that wasn't there a second ago and put serious hurt on my core citys. The city's ecological damage factor? 0. Or the stock market crash if you build up too much wealth, or the solar flare if you have too many satilites. I can understand putting these things in on the higher diffucluty settings, but punishing good strategy so severly on the lower difficulty settings is really getting on my nerves. It is very frustrating to spend an entire game trying a particular stratgey only to have the program use some "gimmick" to render it totaly useless.
Shining1	posted 02-22-99 09:06 PM ET Maybe you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket? - i.e try playing with multiple strategies in order to counter various threats. It actually sounds like these are good fixes to punish the unimaginitive 'tank rush' methodology - players who do one thing so often they win by sheer repetition. Yeah, the random events occasionally do suck, but they fall into the 'Sh*t happens' realm. (As for the Hive missiles, I don't know, but I'm concerned.)
Blackjack	posted 02-22-99 09:10 PM ET What level were you playing at ? I think, after way too many hours at this truly Great game, the Mind Worm AI Routines are either broken or need serious tweeking. Altering downward the Native Life Forms setting Level in a Custom Game seems to do nothing for the Activity . Also the Worm Activity, at any Game Level, works inverse to the Activity Messages you get throughout the Game. I know this is supposed to be an "Inteligent, Living planet " but it`s C3 is really too good at anything above Citizen Level :-)
Fenris	posted 02-23-99 10:23 AM ET You can always turn off the random events if they are becoming too bothersome. As far as the Hive missiles are concerned, it appears to be more of a bug than anything else...
Pragmatist	posted 02-26-99 12:34 PM ET I turned off the events after I was hit with multiple asteroid showers knocking out the solar collectors around all of my large cities. If I were able to devise a defense against this event I'd have left events on but I'm not a masochist and I was getting really tired of rebuilding all those collectors, in addition to which my pre-eminence in Research which I'd focused my entire game strategy on was lost.
Deadron	posted 02-26-99 01:03 PM ET I haven't encountered these items yet, but I would propose that the severity of some other random events be reduced. I'm playing a game where, in the mid-to-end game, I got solar flares knocking out communications for something like 20 years. That's an awfully long time to not be able to negotiate, and it forced me to go on the warpath when I didn't want to. Not that that was bad in itself, it just seemed that maybe five years would have been a bit more reasonable...
Fenris	posted 02-26-99 01:35 PM ET I would like to point out that I've witnessed most of the random events effecting the computer factions also. In the game I'm currently playing I've witnessed the Hive get hit with meteor and hail showers, each time knocking out extensive fortifications (solar panels, farms, etc.) A volcano just exploded in Believer territory turning once fertile farmland into arid wastland. I too, have suffered under large attacks from mindworms and had fungus destroy enhancements, but to me this just adds atmosphere that this is an alien world with different rules. I haven't witnessed the AI favoring one faction over another. Also, the less you terraform, the less the Planet reacts...
Scrubby	posted 02-26-99 01:42 PM ET For those interested the Prima SMAC Guide has a couple of pages on how random events occur and to what frequency...
flurdy	posted 03-01-99 10:30 AM ET yep the missile thing is a bug for all AI that will be fixed in the patch.
George	posted 03-01-99 06:54 PM ET I am playing the second highest level and have not had any problems. Possible explaination? TREES! My land is full of trees. All of my cities have tree farms and hybrid forests. 4 of my cities currently have population 16 (limited only by habitaion dome). and, get this, ZERO eco damage. And I am not even the Gaians. The planet must be taking notice in my good conducts and bestow proper rewards. Geroge - A green hiver
MoSe	posted 03-02-99 11:39 AM ET well, George, try to go for that Hab Domes, then complement it with an Elevator and you'll see... even with your EcoResponsibility, same as mine.
quizara tafwid	posted 03-02-99 02:03 PM ET I've had bases with 41 pop and the beanstalk and only forests everywhere. Just keep your eco-damage at 0 and you're fine. (Of course this means you have at least half of your population as 'Transcends'. As far as I know, there isn't a random event called 'forest fire' :-). And, if Planet tries to send Demon Boils at you, the forests slow them down so you can attack them first. Also, use ground units to attack them because you'll destroy the whole stack with one attack whereas using copters or needle jets require multiple attacks.
Thanatos	posted 03-02-99 02:17 PM ET Quoted from Deadron: "I'm playing a game where, in the mid-to-end game, I got solar flares knocking out communications for something like 20 years. That's an awfully long time to not be able to negotiate, and it forced me to go on the warpath when I didn't want to. " Tell me about it! I was playing a game as University, and decided to try for a diplomatic victory. I fell short, so I took over a few more Hive cities and tried again. I was told that I had to wait at least 20 years before trying again. Fine, so I start to consolidate now that I know I have enough votes. So what happens? On year 19, the solar flares come and knock out all communication, and I can't declare the diplomatic victory! Annoyed, I started going for the military victory. One interesting thing...I don't think the flares really lasted 20 years, I think it was more like 15, so maybe the game gives you 20 as an estimate, and the time is really 20 +/- x or something. Not sure. Anyway, it was annoying but amusing all at the same time. Thanatos
Morganstern	posted 03-03-99 03:21 PM ET I'm also experiencing over-compensation by the computer, similar to the incidents reported by Razor, et al. in this thread. I'm dominating near the end of the game, and could pull the plug with the Supreme Ruler or destroy other factions options at any time. The computer opts to compensate by denying me the tech for Habitation Domes, despite the fact that I'm designating Build in my research options, and have surpassed this level for all other research categories. As a result, my cities are stuck on size 11, despite the fact that I built the Cloning Vats at significant cost. This is beyond random selection, and there's no reason for it. I'm just playing my second game, and would like to see what the techs and game are like in the upper research and city size levels. This way I learn how big cities can get and how to manage them. I'm playing at the easy second level, and am fully aware that I could not be anywhere near this dominant (and would probably lose) at the upper difficulty levels. There is no need for the game to remind me of this. This feature of SMAC gives too much an appearance of the computer "cheating" and distracts from the better qualities of the game. Firaxis has repeated this rather annoying element that was also present in CIVII, although to a seemingly lesser degree. Firaxis acts like a ref who calls all the fouls on the B-ball team that is winning by 20 points. It's just not sporting. This is an unnecessary conceptual flaw in the game, which I would hope would be corrected in future games and patches.
Scrubby	posted 03-03-99 03:41 PM ET Yeah I had Super Tensile Solids(Hab Domes) come up as the last (or next to last) tech discovered too in a game. I didn't think much of it at the time since my growth was slowed as the Gaians but upon glancing at the tech poster here is seems really weird that this was the last tech I discovered. Is this really the computer cheating us or a bug or what?