ascent to transcendence -- too easy?

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Author Topic:   ascent to transcendence -- too easy?

mouse posted 02-22-99 02:17 PM ET
I just finished a game by building the last secret project, and here are a couple of problems I see with the it.
1) If two factions are building the the Voice of the Planet, the first one to complete it is penalized because the the second player can switch his production on Voice over to Ascent giving the second player the win.
2) Building Ascent only requires one city, and Ascent gives bonus score points for its win. Civ2 required a good portion of your empire to build the spaceship, and the other players could attempt to stop you once the spaceship launched. Once Ascent is built, you win.
I will most likely turn of the Ascent win condition in the future. I think economic win and diplomatic wins are much harder.
I would like to see the Transendence victory changed. Maybe something that required a player to maintain a certain number of Transendi at each city or through out the empire, and then allow the other factions a chance to dirupt the process.
What do you thing?
will posted 02-22-99 03:01 PM ET
The obvious answer is to delay the completion of VoP until you've got a mess of supply pods built up. I am glad to see the space ship effort reduced. I thought that sitting around waiting to get the right number of modules, components, and structurals assembled was a real bore. Since Transcendance should take a few turns to build (at least), the other factions have a chance to stop the potential victor.
CEO Bernard posted 02-22-99 03:16 PM ET
Transcendence is much harder with tech stagnation on, but I agree Transcendence is definitely the second easiest form of victory (conquest is the easiest but more tedious, in my view).
The switching thing is a real problem, Ascent to Transcendence should be considered something above and beyond a simple secret project and have to be built from scratch. Yes, you can get around it by having all the supply crawlers ready, but you shouldn't have to do a workaround (the other method is to purposefully disable production at your city by pulling all your workers out of production so that the other person finishes it first, and then you switch to Ascent).
CEO Bernard
mouse posted 02-22-99 03:41 PM ET
I apologize for the mispellings in my original post. I really should stop and reread my posts before pushing the submit button.
I agree that building all of the components of the spaceship could be a tedious process, but the stronger your empire the less trouble it was. It is a good indication of the strength, both economically and productionally, an empire had obtained. It also deserved the bonus score points in winning the game. This is one of the reasons I like SMAC's economic win, even though I haven't achieved one yet.
Ender4000 posted 02-23-99 09:17 AM ET
have 2 cities working on voice of the planet, when one finishes switch the other to transendence, buy the wonder, win the game. I like that its so easy. If you haven't won any other way by the time you get every technology the game needs to end anyway IMO.
mouse posted 02-23-99 12:32 PM ET
I will agree that in a single player game, if you get to the top of the tech tree the game probably should be that easy to win. In a multiplayer game though, I like to see it changed.
Firewall posted 02-27-99 08:23 PM ET
Usually by the time I build VoP and AtT I have enough cash to buy both og them so in two turns its an easy victory. I agree that AtT should be the highest form of victory> its actually one of the easiest.
PawtheUnstuk posted 02-28-99 01:53 AM ET
I can't even get any form of victory for some odd reason. I can't build the ascent to transcendane, corner the global energy market, or propose the unite behind me motion in the council. Strange. Anyone else having similiar problems?

PawtheUnstuk
Vosburgh posted 03-03-99 02:05 AM ET
Same here Paw. I was at Trancendent Thought 103 when i finally took the last opposition city i was keepign around. Never saw the last special project, and was runnign the path and all of the victory conditions were active. Whats up with that?
NuWav posted 03-04-99 01:14 AM ET
mouse:
#1 is no problem, I do the same thing as ender4000 explained. And I always have enough money to buy it after 1 turn building it anyway at that point in the game.
for #2 I agree. Space ship building was better than building a project to end the game. Enough tho most games i played bloodlust anyway (but this game offers many more ways to win, so I'll have to see how I prefer to win). But at the same time, when I get to building Ascent, that's about the time I'm getting blasted by mindworm explosions, so I just want to end the game. But really, like Bernard said, it should be something greater than a project, paralleling the space ship building, but not exactly that of course. Also, the movie was good, but I was kind of expecting something a bit more glorious than another project movie.
Pippo posted 03-04-99 06:52 AM ET
Perhaps i play in a different way, but i achieve diplomatic victory 50-60 years before
trascendence. Usually i traverse the tech-tree almost horizontally (breadth first search), but i take care to grow and expand very quickly and to build 'The Empath Guild'.
The next step is to eradicate the PK, that have too much strength in the Council.
In this manner i achieved Diplomatic Victory in 2320 (Gaian/UoP - Librarian). I continued the game and was able to win by Trascendence in 2380.
NuWav posted 03-04-99 06:28 PM ET
I sort of see diplomatic victory a bit unfair. I am an expansionist, so I usually have enough votes to win supreme leader after about 200-250 years. So I don't use that method to win. It would be better if each faction had one vote instead of a vote for each population point in the supreme leader election, like the rest of the issues that can be voted on.
MoSe posted 03-05-99 11:35 AM ET
Ciao Pippo.
Solid Strategy.
I too expected something more challenging & rewarding in the end.
Paw:
Something weird happened to me too about victories. I have to study and cross test it more in depth, but here's the resume:
When I checked for Corner Global Market, I was far beyond the money requirements, but I didn't want to sit there for 20 turns.
I tried Diplo, easily granted except that easily went Didi rebel; game said, had to kill her to win now by conquest. Everybody else had auto-pact with me.
When I wiped her, still had all Pacts, the game just went on!! I'm sure in a shorter game I won when the only other left faction had a pact with me.
So settled to reach Transcendence. Built AtT, got the movie, and the game just went on!!
So applied again for diplo (I still had all pacts...) and finally worked. Needless to say, I always allow all kinds of victory (sure).
Saluti
MariOne
TheClockKing posted 03-05-99 12:01 PM ET
Paw and Others: Make sure that you have all the victory conditions enabled. As for it being to easy, when I start building it I have inflitrators on every faction so I can see if they are building. If they get to close to having this type of victory or an economic victory I send a planet buster their way, about the only time I use them. I'm sure others do this making multi player harder. Maybe the computer should learn to focus on cities that are about to give you the win.
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Author	Topic: ascent to transcendence -- too easy?
mouse	posted 02-22-99 02:17 PM ET I just finished a game by building the last secret project, and here are a couple of problems I see with the it. 1) If two factions are building the the Voice of the Planet, the first one to complete it is penalized because the the second player can switch his production on Voice over to Ascent giving the second player the win. 2) Building Ascent only requires one city, and Ascent gives bonus score points for its win. Civ2 required a good portion of your empire to build the spaceship, and the other players could attempt to stop you once the spaceship launched. Once Ascent is built, you win. I will most likely turn of the Ascent win condition in the future. I think economic win and diplomatic wins are much harder. I would like to see the Transendence victory changed. Maybe something that required a player to maintain a certain number of Transendi at each city or through out the empire, and then allow the other factions a chance to dirupt the process. What do you thing?
will	posted 02-22-99 03:01 PM ET The obvious answer is to delay the completion of VoP until you've got a mess of supply pods built up. I am glad to see the space ship effort reduced. I thought that sitting around waiting to get the right number of modules, components, and structurals assembled was a real bore. Since Transcendance should take a few turns to build (at least), the other factions have a chance to stop the potential victor.
CEO Bernard	posted 02-22-99 03:16 PM ET Transcendence is much harder with tech stagnation on, but I agree Transcendence is definitely the second easiest form of victory (conquest is the easiest but more tedious, in my view). The switching thing is a real problem, Ascent to Transcendence should be considered something above and beyond a simple secret project and have to be built from scratch. Yes, you can get around it by having all the supply crawlers ready, but you shouldn't have to do a workaround (the other method is to purposefully disable production at your city by pulling all your workers out of production so that the other person finishes it first, and then you switch to Ascent). CEO Bernard
mouse	posted 02-22-99 03:41 PM ET I apologize for the mispellings in my original post. I really should stop and reread my posts before pushing the submit button. I agree that building all of the components of the spaceship could be a tedious process, but the stronger your empire the less trouble it was. It is a good indication of the strength, both economically and productionally, an empire had obtained. It also deserved the bonus score points in winning the game. This is one of the reasons I like SMAC's economic win, even though I haven't achieved one yet.
Ender4000	posted 02-23-99 09:17 AM ET have 2 cities working on voice of the planet, when one finishes switch the other to transendence, buy the wonder, win the game. I like that its so easy. If you haven't won any other way by the time you get every technology the game needs to end anyway IMO.
mouse	posted 02-23-99 12:32 PM ET I will agree that in a single player game, if you get to the top of the tech tree the game probably should be that easy to win. In a multiplayer game though, I like to see it changed.
Firewall	posted 02-27-99 08:23 PM ET Usually by the time I build VoP and AtT I have enough cash to buy both og them so in two turns its an easy victory. I agree that AtT should be the highest form of victory> its actually one of the easiest.
PawtheUnstuk	posted 02-28-99 01:53 AM ET I can't even get any form of victory for some odd reason. I can't build the ascent to transcendane, corner the global energy market, or propose the unite behind me motion in the council. Strange. Anyone else having similiar problems? PawtheUnstuk
Vosburgh	posted 03-03-99 02:05 AM ET Same here Paw. I was at Trancendent Thought 103 when i finally took the last opposition city i was keepign around. Never saw the last special project, and was runnign the path and all of the victory conditions were active. Whats up with that?
NuWav	posted 03-04-99 01:14 AM ET mouse: #1 is no problem, I do the same thing as ender4000 explained. And I always have enough money to buy it after 1 turn building it anyway at that point in the game. for #2 I agree. Space ship building was better than building a project to end the game. Enough tho most games i played bloodlust anyway (but this game offers many more ways to win, so I'll have to see how I prefer to win). But at the same time, when I get to building Ascent, that's about the time I'm getting blasted by mindworm explosions, so I just want to end the game. But really, like Bernard said, it should be something greater than a project, paralleling the space ship building, but not exactly that of course. Also, the movie was good, but I was kind of expecting something a bit more glorious than another project movie.
Pippo	posted 03-04-99 06:52 AM ET Perhaps i play in a different way, but i achieve diplomatic victory 50-60 years before trascendence. Usually i traverse the tech-tree almost horizontally (breadth first search), but i take care to grow and expand very quickly and to build 'The Empath Guild'. The next step is to eradicate the PK, that have too much strength in the Council. In this manner i achieved Diplomatic Victory in 2320 (Gaian/UoP - Librarian). I continued the game and was able to win by Trascendence in 2380.
NuWav	posted 03-04-99 06:28 PM ET I sort of see diplomatic victory a bit unfair. I am an expansionist, so I usually have enough votes to win supreme leader after about 200-250 years. So I don't use that method to win. It would be better if each faction had one vote instead of a vote for each population point in the supreme leader election, like the rest of the issues that can be voted on.
MoSe	posted 03-05-99 11:35 AM ET Ciao Pippo. Solid Strategy. I too expected something more challenging & rewarding in the end. Paw: Something weird happened to me too about victories. I have to study and cross test it more in depth, but here's the resume: When I checked for Corner Global Market, I was far beyond the money requirements, but I didn't want to sit there for 20 turns. I tried Diplo, easily granted except that easily went Didi rebel; game said, had to kill her to win now by conquest. Everybody else had auto-pact with me. When I wiped her, still had all Pacts, the game just went on!! I'm sure in a shorter game I won when the only other left faction had a pact with me. So settled to reach Transcendence. Built AtT, got the movie, and the game just went on!! So applied again for diplo (I still had all pacts...) and finally worked. Needless to say, I always allow all kinds of victory (sure). Saluti MariOne
TheClockKing	posted 03-05-99 12:01 PM ET Paw and Others: Make sure that you have all the victory conditions enabled. As for it being to easy, when I start building it I have inflitrators on every faction so I can see if they are building. If they get to close to having this type of victory or an economic victory I send a planet buster their way, about the only time I use them. I'm sure others do this making multi player harder. Maybe the computer should learn to focus on cities that are about to give you the win.