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Author Topic:   Something is missing...

Carnick posted 02-16-99 08:07 PM ET
First off I'd like to say great job with SMAC! It's been the first TBS to hook me as much as the old Civ2 did. My major gripe however is the fact that when playing SMAC you don't "feel" as if you're running an empire. In Civ2, when you built a structure or researched a tech you got a nice 3D image of the item. Now you may think that isn't such a big deal, but it really helps the gameplay quality and makes you believe you're building an empire. This is ESPECIALY crucial in a science fiction game. For example, everyone knows roughly what a temple or airport looks like, but what the heck does a Recreations Common look like? Instead of getting a picture of the building you get a crude 2D icon representing it. This makes you unattached to the people in your empire, and I often just regard my citizens as ants and drones collecting minerals. In a game with the goal of setting a new life from the ravages of Earth, I'd think it would be important to immerse the player into the environment more. In Civ2 you could even see your cities grow by clicking on the View button. Is there anything like this in SMAC? Nope. Sure, we see a lot of detail in the military units, but is that all there is to building an empire?
Feel free to flame me if you want, I welcome it =)
-Carnick

Borodino posted 02-16-99 08:10 PM ET
What do you mean by 3D images in CivII. I don't remember those? Then again, I always played with the Civlopedia turned off...
Cat posted 02-16-99 08:26 PM ET
He means you could 'view' your city as improvements were made. Personally I didn't find this such a worhwhile feature in Civ II - the strategy angle was more important to me. The images were not 3D either - nicely rendered, but not 3D. SMAC is a futuristic game - perhaps there is less connectedness with your people than used to occur in the past. Warfare is high-tech, politics often refined. The population is more a resource you manipulate to determine a greater outcome. None of the factions put the welfare of their citizens first if they want to drive home their agenda and ultimately win. In this respect actually seeing your city improvements is not really useful.
Carnick posted 02-16-99 08:31 PM ET
I hardly ever used the View option in Civ2 either, however I know what a temple and a library looks like. When comfronted with such bizzare items in a sci-fi universe, you should get a better picture on what they look like, that's all I'm saying. You know the movie for The Merchant Exchange? See all those cars flying through the city? I'd like to see more of that in the game, not just robot looking "workers" everywhere.
-Carnick
Cyberduck posted 02-16-99 08:55 PM ET
I was surprised how muched I miss being able to view my SMAC cities. The *ONLY* time I ever viewed cities in Civ II was when I was sloppy with the mouse and accidentally hit the View button.
Now, on the other hand, if getting to view the cities meant waiting another two or three weeks before we could start playing, I'd definitely put the feature in my "postponed for version 2.0" list...
Eddo posted 02-16-99 09:49 PM ET
Running in that same vein, I miss the throne room in Civ2 that the people set up for you. I liked to be able to choose which parts of the throne room I wanted updated.
That pyramid thingy with the icons in SMAC just doesn't give me that "bonus" feeling.
UndertakerAPB posted 02-16-99 10:04 PM ET
Very very good topic here.I posted a topic like this earlier what no to many replies.U are absolutely right this game losses the feel of running a empire or let me put it a faction.
Civ2 in it's own mysterious way threw u into your nation and made u feel u are responible for the lifes of your citizens.
In this game u seem to be 99.9% of time time as a dictator.When I enact a DEMOCRATIC government to my people.
I don't really feel they are happy or sympethic for what I done.U may think I am some sort of a nut, I can understand but CIV2 and CIV1 even MASTER of ORION 2.I feel into the excitement of being there leader.
I can't sense it or even feel it in this game.The hard to understand techs.The feeling in the game that the drones are a majority and humanity are there slaves.
Just can't imagine the future of 2100AD acting out this way.By 2100AD we would probably be on MARS realistically.No way in hell or in the pyshics of Einstein can we come up with the technology to enter another star system.
That is one minor flaw I find in the storyline of this game.I always e-mail Microprose and suggested since CIV2 that the colonist from EARTH leaving at the end should have landed on Mars to be realistic.
Of course no relies on that topic.These are my personal views though.I only pray that CIVILIZATION:CALL TO POWER as listened and used common sense when it comes to this.Since CTP does end in 3000AD maybe then we will reach ALPHA CENTURAI.
Faction still on EARTH,
Undertaker
Jazzman posted 02-17-99 12:02 PM ET
You know if they even changed the picture in the build window to reflect that the structure looked like it. In my humble opinion I think it would help relate to the game.
I do agree, I feel sort of a loss of connection to the game. Mind you I have had the game for 5 days and have invested maybe 60 hours to the game. I can't eat can't sleep. I like it. I'm must be a machisist when it comes to SMAC but I just wish I could get more feeling from the game.
Ender4000 posted 02-17-99 12:38 PM ET
These features were cool for my first game of civ2, then they got turned off. I'm glad they didn't waste time on them in SMAC, or waste my hard drive space.
As to the games time frame being unrealistic, its just a game, I played games of civ where I reached AC by 1500 that was unrealistic too, who cares, it was still fun. Of course its posible anyway, when that technology happens it will happen all at once, its not a building up thing, suddenly someone says of course... you can do this, and boop we can travel FTL. I doubt it will happen by then, but it could.
Jason Beaudoin posted 02-17-99 01:29 PM ET
I agree with Carnick. It is little things like that make a game feel more real. Sid Meier always did that right, but it may be missing a little here.
You got to admit that the voice overs was a nice touch!
Carnick posted 02-17-99 06:35 PM ET
I just played a game of Civ2 to see what was missing in SMAC, and I noticed it was all these little details that helped make it all come together. For example, the sound of your people cheering when you built a rewarding structure, the little pictures detailing the buildings, the descriptions and photographs of the wonders, the upgradable thrown room, the noble music, and so on. Make sure to look into this for your next SMAC game Firaxis.
I do agree though, the voice overs are great. Is it unhealthy to hear CEO Morgan's voice talking about the ethics of greed in your sleep? =)
-Carnick
"Human behavior is economic behavior."
Sphinx posted 02-17-99 07:23 PM ET
I'd like to congratulate the designers for an excellent game. I've been sold on Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds since RRT.
Now for the gripes..the mechanics of the game, by that i mean how you work with the interfaces is astonishingly poor. i mean its CivII without better graphics and late in the game the tedium of managing all those bases gets to you. I played an ascend victory and my amin complaint is that the design guys here (like in my business)concentrate on the game concepts (great job there) but don't spend enough time on the keystrokes. Not to pile on but my main complaints:
1) terraforming- if on auto the terraformers spend all thgeir time going places instead of staying near "home" and doing improvements. The suggestion that you could give a command stack to terraform each square is great.
2) Turns end without you knowing. With all the auto commands i often miss doing something at a base or attacking.
3) leave the cursor n=where it was! if I'm working on a part of the map, every time I do something the cursor eagerly moves to the next place that needs a command usually half way accross the map! Same thing when making improvements you often want to build the same thing in lots of places, but the cursor always moves to the top.
3) Need a "global' command like when ice caps melt i'd like to be able to insert dome as first in queue in all cities that don't have it- i spent 15 minutes going over every city to do this!
4)Tell me where I have network nodes that have already received an alien, really annoying to move one half way accross the map only to find out its already had one.
5) Late in the game all aircraft designs were eliminated from the design screen- you guys did a great job on the design setup a real plus in this game but the algorythms and interface for updating/replacing designs needs work.
Lone War posted 02-17-99 07:37 PM ET
Sphinx, I can address some of your concerns.
1. Under your automatic functions of your terrorformers there is an option of Upgrade Home Base. This should make them stick around their home base and upgrade it.
2. Goto the Menu, then goto Game then under Preferences click on Pause at end of turn. This makes you have to push Enter to end each of your turns.
3.Don't know what to tell you about this one.
4.This would be a nice command to have.
5.For network nodes that already have an alien in them, just push the "g" key when an alien is active, it will bring up a list of cities that that alien can move to, and whether or not they have an alien already there.
5. Me, I personally turned off the auto design function. This can also be found under Menu, Game, Preferences.
Wraithfire posted 02-21-99 01:15 AM ET
Hiya everyone,
I just wanted to add my 2 cents... I think that we are missing the Empire game b/c this is not an empire building game... It is a "faction" building game and that implies a totally different gameplay. Empires unlike factions are less political and more institutional... the reason why people feel connected to an empire is because it provides a sense of immortality to them and the empire in turn gains a further longevity with the more people who proscribe to its principles. Whereas a faction is about the here and now, the moment, it idealogy is what drives it and sparks its actions. That's why you don't see "happy" people in Smac... not because there aren't any, but because they aren't what's important. What is important? Talents... thats right! talented people that can bring about the perfection and promugation of one's ideology. That's also why you have the council... only in a factioned world do you find an UNsque council... In the Age of Empires (sorry but its a good description), you would never have found the idea of a "world counil" and this is because people identified with their kingdoms and empires, and not with any certain faction... That's the true difference between SMAC & CIV is that one is oriented towards the empire (the society) and the other is aimed towards the faction (ideology)... So why don't you feel that SMAC is an empire building game? It's my belief that its not meant to be one... instead it is a great representation of modern factional politics something more interested in pursuit of its own ends and less for the good of the society on the whole... Thanks and I hope to hear from you all soon ;-)
kaelis posted 02-21-99 01:46 AM ET
Sphinx I have an answer for you to question number 4: If you us the go to base [G] key the list of bases the artifact can go to will let you know which have network nodes that have not been connected.
I have to agree with most of the people here. Now that I have read this topic I know what it is about SMAC that is preventing it from relpacing Civ2 in my heart. I am playing the game and enjoying it buy not to the same degree as Civ2. And I think it is the 'immersion feel', or lack thereof, which is bothering me. Could it be that the game doesn't take place on Earth? Maybe it is the fact that I am having to fight a planet as well as a bunch of idiots who couldn't build an ant farm much less an empire. I just don't know. I will have to get back to playing so that I can attempt to figure it out.
cousLee posted 02-21-99 02:36 AM ET
guess i might be alone on this one.
city view in civ2? (boring) yippe, a cartoon cell
the throne room? (annoying) how many times do I have to hit enter to close the da*n screen? (early on, near every other turn).
the Pyramid? (almost perfect) almost because the "first city" badge seems to be random and does not really amount to a hill of beans anyway.
great game. Thx Firaxis.
PawtheUnstuk posted 02-21-99 04:30 AM ET
Use your imagination. This is like the difference between a book and a movie: in a movie you see exactly what they want you to see, in a book you can imagine it yourself.
Also, they themselves don't know what the various st ructures represent. If you listen to the quote for Rec Commons, you'll find out that Firaxis's conception of a rec commons isn't anything specific-just something for the people to do to relax. Also, I doubt they have a very clear idea of what, say, a Genejack facility is.
I never used the city view feature. I always thought it was kind of silly.
LamprosWC
Purple posted 02-21-99 09:30 AM ET
Undertaker, your comment about the impossibility of achieving interstellar travel by the year 2100 pushed me out of the lurker's corner. Briefly, I would ask you to think back to 1900. Would anyone outside a Jules Verne have imagined the amazing world we live in a century later (TV, computers, space stations, genetic manipulation, etc.)?
Boggling.
Purple
Purple posted 02-21-99 09:36 AM ET
Oops! I just noticed the thread on the possibility of reaching Alpha Centauri by the year 2100 with over 130 messages. Sorry for posting in this one. I'm sure my point has been expressed there (I haven't read the whole thread yet.)
Purple
Carnick posted 02-21-99 06:05 PM ET
PawtheUnstuk, this is exactly my point. If I want to read a book I'll read a book, if I want an interactive experience I'll play a PC game.
-Carnick
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Author	Topic: Something is missing...
Carnick	posted 02-16-99 08:07 PM ET First off I'd like to say great job with SMAC! It's been the first TBS to hook me as much as the old Civ2 did. My major gripe however is the fact that when playing SMAC you don't "feel" as if you're running an empire. In Civ2, when you built a structure or researched a tech you got a nice 3D image of the item. Now you may think that isn't such a big deal, but it really helps the gameplay quality and makes you believe you're building an empire. This is ESPECIALY crucial in a science fiction game. For example, everyone knows roughly what a temple or airport looks like, but what the heck does a Recreations Common look like? Instead of getting a picture of the building you get a crude 2D icon representing it. This makes you unattached to the people in your empire, and I often just regard my citizens as ants and drones collecting minerals. In a game with the goal of setting a new life from the ravages of Earth, I'd think it would be important to immerse the player into the environment more. In Civ2 you could even see your cities grow by clicking on the View button. Is there anything like this in SMAC? Nope. Sure, we see a lot of detail in the military units, but is that all there is to building an empire? Feel free to flame me if you want, I welcome it =) -Carnick
Borodino	posted 02-16-99 08:10 PM ET What do you mean by 3D images in CivII. I don't remember those? Then again, I always played with the Civlopedia turned off...
Cat	posted 02-16-99 08:26 PM ET He means you could 'view' your city as improvements were made. Personally I didn't find this such a worhwhile feature in Civ II - the strategy angle was more important to me. The images were not 3D either - nicely rendered, but not 3D. SMAC is a futuristic game - perhaps there is less connectedness with your people than used to occur in the past. Warfare is high-tech, politics often refined. The population is more a resource you manipulate to determine a greater outcome. None of the factions put the welfare of their citizens first if they want to drive home their agenda and ultimately win. In this respect actually seeing your city improvements is not really useful.
Carnick	posted 02-16-99 08:31 PM ET I hardly ever used the View option in Civ2 either, however I know what a temple and a library looks like. When comfronted with such bizzare items in a sci-fi universe, you should get a better picture on what they look like, that's all I'm saying. You know the movie for The Merchant Exchange? See all those cars flying through the city? I'd like to see more of that in the game, not just robot looking "workers" everywhere. -Carnick
Cyberduck	posted 02-16-99 08:55 PM ET I was surprised how muched I miss being able to view my SMAC cities. The ONLY time I ever viewed cities in Civ II was when I was sloppy with the mouse and accidentally hit the View button. Now, on the other hand, if getting to view the cities meant waiting another two or three weeks before we could start playing, I'd definitely put the feature in my "postponed for version 2.0" list...
Eddo	posted 02-16-99 09:49 PM ET Running in that same vein, I miss the throne room in Civ2 that the people set up for you. I liked to be able to choose which parts of the throne room I wanted updated. That pyramid thingy with the icons in SMAC just doesn't give me that "bonus" feeling.
UndertakerAPB	posted 02-16-99 10:04 PM ET Very very good topic here.I posted a topic like this earlier what no to many replies.U are absolutely right this game losses the feel of running a empire or let me put it a faction. Civ2 in it's own mysterious way threw u into your nation and made u feel u are responible for the lifes of your citizens. In this game u seem to be 99.9% of time time as a dictator.When I enact a DEMOCRATIC government to my people. I don't really feel they are happy or sympethic for what I done.U may think I am some sort of a nut, I can understand but CIV2 and CIV1 even MASTER of ORION 2.I feel into the excitement of being there leader. I can't sense it or even feel it in this game.The hard to understand techs.The feeling in the game that the drones are a majority and humanity are there slaves. Just can't imagine the future of 2100AD acting out this way.By 2100AD we would probably be on MARS realistically.No way in hell or in the pyshics of Einstein can we come up with the technology to enter another star system. That is one minor flaw I find in the storyline of this game.I always e-mail Microprose and suggested since CIV2 that the colonist from EARTH leaving at the end should have landed on Mars to be realistic. Of course no relies on that topic.These are my personal views though.I only pray that CIVILIZATION:CALL TO POWER as listened and used common sense when it comes to this.Since CTP does end in 3000AD maybe then we will reach ALPHA CENTURAI. Faction still on EARTH, Undertaker
Jazzman	posted 02-17-99 12:02 PM ET You know if they even changed the picture in the build window to reflect that the structure looked like it. In my humble opinion I think it would help relate to the game. I do agree, I feel sort of a loss of connection to the game. Mind you I have had the game for 5 days and have invested maybe 60 hours to the game. I can't eat can't sleep. I like it. I'm must be a machisist when it comes to SMAC but I just wish I could get more feeling from the game.
Ender4000	posted 02-17-99 12:38 PM ET These features were cool for my first game of civ2, then they got turned off. I'm glad they didn't waste time on them in SMAC, or waste my hard drive space. As to the games time frame being unrealistic, its just a game, I played games of civ where I reached AC by 1500 that was unrealistic too, who cares, it was still fun. Of course its posible anyway, when that technology happens it will happen all at once, its not a building up thing, suddenly someone says of course... you can do this, and boop we can travel FTL. I doubt it will happen by then, but it could.
Jason Beaudoin	posted 02-17-99 01:29 PM ET I agree with Carnick. It is little things like that make a game feel more real. Sid Meier always did that right, but it may be missing a little here. You got to admit that the voice overs was a nice touch!
Carnick	posted 02-17-99 06:35 PM ET I just played a game of Civ2 to see what was missing in SMAC, and I noticed it was all these little details that helped make it all come together. For example, the sound of your people cheering when you built a rewarding structure, the little pictures detailing the buildings, the descriptions and photographs of the wonders, the upgradable thrown room, the noble music, and so on. Make sure to look into this for your next SMAC game Firaxis. I do agree though, the voice overs are great. Is it unhealthy to hear CEO Morgan's voice talking about the ethics of greed in your sleep? =) -Carnick "Human behavior is economic behavior."
Sphinx	posted 02-17-99 07:23 PM ET I'd like to congratulate the designers for an excellent game. I've been sold on Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds since RRT. Now for the gripes..the mechanics of the game, by that i mean how you work with the interfaces is astonishingly poor. i mean its CivII without better graphics and late in the game the tedium of managing all those bases gets to you. I played an ascend victory and my amin complaint is that the design guys here (like in my business)concentrate on the game concepts (great job there) but don't spend enough time on the keystrokes. Not to pile on but my main complaints: 1) terraforming- if on auto the terraformers spend all thgeir time going places instead of staying near "home" and doing improvements. The suggestion that you could give a command stack to terraform each square is great. 2) Turns end without you knowing. With all the auto commands i often miss doing something at a base or attacking. 3) leave the cursor n=where it was! if I'm working on a part of the map, every time I do something the cursor eagerly moves to the next place that needs a command usually half way accross the map! Same thing when making improvements you often want to build the same thing in lots of places, but the cursor always moves to the top. 3) Need a "global' command like when ice caps melt i'd like to be able to insert dome as first in queue in all cities that don't have it- i spent 15 minutes going over every city to do this! 4)Tell me where I have network nodes that have already received an alien, really annoying to move one half way accross the map only to find out its already had one. 5) Late in the game all aircraft designs were eliminated from the design screen- you guys did a great job on the design setup a real plus in this game but the algorythms and interface for updating/replacing designs needs work.
Lone War	posted 02-17-99 07:37 PM ET Sphinx, I can address some of your concerns. 1. Under your automatic functions of your terrorformers there is an option of Upgrade Home Base. This should make them stick around their home base and upgrade it. 2. Goto the Menu, then goto Game then under Preferences click on Pause at end of turn. This makes you have to push Enter to end each of your turns. 3.Don't know what to tell you about this one. 4.This would be a nice command to have. 5.For network nodes that already have an alien in them, just push the "g" key when an alien is active, it will bring up a list of cities that that alien can move to, and whether or not they have an alien already there. 5. Me, I personally turned off the auto design function. This can also be found under Menu, Game, Preferences.
Wraithfire	posted 02-21-99 01:15 AM ET Hiya everyone, I just wanted to add my 2 cents... I think that we are missing the Empire game b/c this is not an empire building game... It is a "faction" building game and that implies a totally different gameplay. Empires unlike factions are less political and more institutional... the reason why people feel connected to an empire is because it provides a sense of immortality to them and the empire in turn gains a further longevity with the more people who proscribe to its principles. Whereas a faction is about the here and now, the moment, it idealogy is what drives it and sparks its actions. That's why you don't see "happy" people in Smac... not because there aren't any, but because they aren't what's important. What is important? Talents... thats right! talented people that can bring about the perfection and promugation of one's ideology. That's also why you have the council... only in a factioned world do you find an UNsque council... In the Age of Empires (sorry but its a good description), you would never have found the idea of a "world counil" and this is because people identified with their kingdoms and empires, and not with any certain faction... That's the true difference between SMAC & CIV is that one is oriented towards the empire (the society) and the other is aimed towards the faction (ideology)... So why don't you feel that SMAC is an empire building game? It's my belief that its not meant to be one... instead it is a great representation of modern factional politics something more interested in pursuit of its own ends and less for the good of the society on the whole... Thanks and I hope to hear from you all soon ;-)
kaelis	posted 02-21-99 01:46 AM ET Sphinx I have an answer for you to question number 4: If you us the go to base [G] key the list of bases the artifact can go to will let you know which have network nodes that have not been connected. I have to agree with most of the people here. Now that I have read this topic I know what it is about SMAC that is preventing it from relpacing Civ2 in my heart. I am playing the game and enjoying it buy not to the same degree as Civ2. And I think it is the 'immersion feel', or lack thereof, which is bothering me. Could it be that the game doesn't take place on Earth? Maybe it is the fact that I am having to fight a planet as well as a bunch of idiots who couldn't build an ant farm much less an empire. I just don't know. I will have to get back to playing so that I can attempt to figure it out.
cousLee	posted 02-21-99 02:36 AM ET guess i might be alone on this one. city view in civ2? (boring) yippe, a cartoon cell the throne room? (annoying) how many times do I have to hit enter to close the da*n screen? (early on, near every other turn). the Pyramid? (almost perfect) almost because the "first city" badge seems to be random and does not really amount to a hill of beans anyway. great game. Thx Firaxis.
PawtheUnstuk	posted 02-21-99 04:30 AM ET Use your imagination. This is like the difference between a book and a movie: in a movie you see exactly what they want you to see, in a book you can imagine it yourself. Also, they themselves don't know what the various st ructures represent. If you listen to the quote for Rec Commons, you'll find out that Firaxis's conception of a rec commons isn't anything specific-just something for the people to do to relax. Also, I doubt they have a very clear idea of what, say, a Genejack facility is. I never used the city view feature. I always thought it was kind of silly. LamprosWC
Purple	posted 02-21-99 09:30 AM ET Undertaker, your comment about the impossibility of achieving interstellar travel by the year 2100 pushed me out of the lurker's corner. Briefly, I would ask you to think back to 1900. Would anyone outside a Jules Verne have imagined the amazing world we live in a century later (TV, computers, space stations, genetic manipulation, etc.)? Boggling. Purple
Purple	posted 02-21-99 09:36 AM ET Oops! I just noticed the thread on the possibility of reaching Alpha Centauri by the year 2100 with over 130 messages. Sorry for posting in this one. I'm sure my point has been expressed there (I haven't read the whole thread yet.) Purple
Carnick	posted 02-21-99 06:05 PM ET PawtheUnstuk, this is exactly my point. If I want to read a book I'll read a book, if I want an interactive experience I'll play a PC game. -Carnick