posted 02-16-99 03:47 PM ET            

If you're playing peacefully, then the huge police penalty doesn't matter. And a negative "Planet" score can be as much a blessing as a curse-- if you're prepared to fight off mindworms, that's free money (and morale boosts) when you win. And when you have to fight, you can change from "Free Market" to "Planned" right away.

I bet when they were testing this, "Free Market" originally had a lower penalty (-5 anything just looks so darned bad)-- but they probably found that the +2 on econ was so good, they had to balance it somehow. So don't use FM if you're a warmonger, but while you're behaving peacefully, it can be great-- all that extra energy can do wonders for your tech advancement.

posted 02-16-99 05:39 PM ET         

+2 Econo and +2 Industry, IMO however, is WAY too powerful. 20% cost reduction on everything AND an extra unit of energy per square. People don't seem to realize it but +2 Economy is really a very, very powerful thing.

posted 02-16-99 05:47 PM ET            

I'm curious as to your disdain for Free Market economics... after all, if not for them, you wouldn't even be playing SMAC, because it wouldn't exist. Think about how many great computer games come out of Europe or Russia... not many. Most come from US based software companies, who are, last time I checked, VERY happy about the idea of a Free Market, so they can sell their software and make money.

Shame on you for cursing simply the BEST socio-economic model in human history.

The fact that the US populace is slowly eradicating the Free Market with ridiculous taxes doesn't change the fact that the free market has done more to grow civilization than any other economic model in history.

Doesn't it make you wonder why, during the Cold War, the Eastern Bloc countries would ONLY allow old people to cross the border to the West? Why would that be? Because planned economics, no matter how wonderful you might think they are, are horribly inefficient, and the Eastern Bloc realized that their economy couldn't support large numbers of old and infirm people. But SURPRISE! Free market societies could. Do some research into the immigration and emigration from Eastern Bloc countries to Berlin and Western Europe before bashing the one economic model that doesn't starve the lowest classes of society. How many Chinese died in the Great Leap Forward? 30 million? How many millions of Russians STARVED under Stalin?

You may see poor people in free market societies, but we don't have millions dying from inefficient distribution of limited resources.

Shame on you for bashing freedom.

posted 02-17-99 12:30 AM ET            

This point has come up several times. For the nth time: Free Market is awesome! You loot the Planet, your citizens are unhappy at their "energy-fattened masters," but that +2 Economy is great! I'll add that +2 Industry is an incredible bonus as well- pound for pound, Economy and Industry have the biggest impacts per point. Which is why an increase of just one point is so good.

JAFO: See MxM's reply- a true free market, like in the 1870's-1890's, can have many bad effects. But add a "values- wealth" on to us at that time as well. Reasonable controls only help the economy- after all, big business supported tariffs, and today we recognize how bad tariffs are (at least most of us). Also, if we ruin the Planet, then there will be no resources left to exploit. So all of those "silly" regulations actually are helping sustain capatalism by forcing it not to destroy itself by going for the quick buck and killing the enviornment, which would be disastrous for our free market.

posted 02-17-99 01:28 AM ET            

If Russia (or USSR) had a democratic government then I believe that would have leaded to introduction of free market elements into its economics much early. That could have resulted into the same combination of planned economics and free market in today�s Russia. (Sorry for English)

Well, I understand that these are just speculation, so do not take it too seriously.

posted 02-17-99 07:55 AM ET            

Free Market ecomomics rules! There is no need to edit it in the alpha.txt.

posted 02-17-99 05:52 PM ET            

You all can bash American free market economics in the late 19th, early 20th century, but much like SMAC, that free market expansion helped make the US the dominant superpower in the world. As late as WWII, when the US entered, the US had the 18th-ranked military in the world (can anyone say negative support/police rating??)

So then the Japanese decide to push us into the war... goodbye free market, hello planned economy. The INFRASTRUCTURE to become a world power was created by free market economics. I'm not AT ALL happy about the current US trends -- I'd be the last to suggest we're pure free market, by any means. Government regulations and yes, tariffs, have made the US a much LESS competitive nation in the world. Look at the US car industry in the '70's. The Japanese almost sunk our car manufacturers because US automakers had become uncompetitive, due to previous tariffs imposed against Japanese cars. The slow erosion of the free market almost killed Chrysler.

America is VERY close to becoming a socialist nation. With taxes running about 40% when you combine federal, state, and sales taxes, the US is certainly NOT a perfect free market model, but it is the BEST HISTORICAL model of free market economics. Take a look at Russia today, with a NEGATIVE population growth, and ask yourself what benefits communism accrued the Soviet citizenry.

The ideals of democracy and free market economics are both rooted in the idea of the individual being the most important factor in a society, not the GOVERNMENT being the most important factor. Sadly, Americans seem to WANT the government to tell them to wear their seatbelts at the point of a gun, they WANT to be told not to smoke in public at the point of a gun, they WANT to have half their income taken from them at the point of a gun. Americans have become wimpy, non-self-reliant whiners who now look to the government, not themselves, to solve their problems.

But don't hold up Sweden as a great example. They've got plenty of problems, and the last time I checked, weren't they seeking to overhaul their SOCIALIZED medical system in favor of a more Free Market approach?

France has 30% unemployment... go SOCIALISM!

The old saw is true -- Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. The same goes for capitalism.

Socialism is an indivuality-killing concept. Wonder why there aren't many charismatic, enigmatic, individualistic European celebrities, outside of Branson? Because socialism sucks away that which makes you unique. Democracy and capitalism have at least encouraged some degree of individuality. It's no mean mystery why America dominates the world culture, because, historically, we've ALLOWED people to do what they want, not worrying about what their neighbor wants them to do.

posted 02-17-99 06:52 PM ET            

Mr.Smily: We aren't colonizing an alien planet. If we were, we would definitely want to be careful about the type of economics we used.

posted 02-17-99 09:32 PM ET            

" free market expansion helped make the US the dominant superpower in the world"
In 1919 Russia did not have economy at all! In 1985 everyone spoke about USSR as a superpower. So planned economics can be as powerful as free marked economics, and in some situations even more powerful. But Russia has never had democracy. Again, let me stress that democracy is the leading factor of stability and prosperity of society.
It might be that Planed Economics + Democracy is more powerful than Free Market + Democracy. However it is not possible to check because there was no Planed Economics + Democracy society in history. Need more experimental data.

"Democracy and capitalism ... ALLOWED people to do what they want, not worrying about what their neighbor wants them to do�
It does not look like democracy and capitalism, it looks more like anarchy.

"Take a look at Russia today, with a NEGATIVE population growth, and ask yourself what benefits communism accrued the Soviet citizenry."
By the contrary, Russia now is the country with freest market available. No rules, no (or very week) government regulation. Every one does whatever he wants. Basically it kills all attempts to rise economy.
The absence of democracy begot self-destruction of the USSR, self-destruction begot week government and wild, free market that begot the rest of problems.

All what I am trying to say here is that free market by itself is nothing. It can lead to fascism (as it was in Germany) as well as to democracy.
The old saw is true -- Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
It is not an accident that this was said about Democracy, not about Free Market.

posted 02-17-99 11:00 PM ET            

In defence to all remarks against my home country Sweden: Even the Roman Empire fell

"Lots" of computer games are made in Sweden(a few of them quite good in fact), but most of them are for the Scandinavian market

I think that comparing Sweden(with a population of 9 million) with the US is pretty unfair won't you say? Compare Sweden in all things with one of your states instead.

I also think that a country with so many poor as the US has, can hardly call themselves the land of opportunity or democracy for that matter(I'm refering of course to the fact that money/education breeds money/education).

But of course you are right: Swedish taxes have always been high and that makes business tougher, but then again I'll gladly pay a little extra tax and know all in my country gets a chance to go to a decent school, all in my country can get a place to live and get food, good hospital care(yes still that but it's a bit more expensive) etc

So in that sense Planned Economy leads to a truer Democracy than a Free Market.

BTW Sweden is nr 3 in the world in music sales(which is a pretty commercial biz I would say), compare that per capita with the US

It isn't all a big race, at least it shouldn't be

Salut

posted 02-17-99 11:24 PM ET            

More I think it to some degree has to do with that the average American is not very well educated and thus could care less about what happens outside US borders. Here in Sweden(and else in Europe), the average American can be perceived as pretty stupid and uneducated(as you are well aware of I'm certain), which is of course the effect of the so-called "best of all" Free Market politics

And finally, both our precious countries suffer from huge depts, both the effects of their politics... so the conclusion is -

nothing lasts or is good forever

posted 02-18-99 01:08 AM ET            

Further, the US education system is much better than you give it credit for (esp. the university system). It has less to do with wealth begetting quality education than you might imagine. Loans and extra jobs can do wonders. It's more related to desire to go to school.

That being said, Sweden does very well. But then Sweden doesn't have the most complex society either. So you're right, it's like comparing apples with oranges.

posted 02-18-99 02:29 AM ET            

Democracy was considered one of the best forms of government in Civ, and it restricted troop movement considerably moe (can't leave home bases instead of can't leave territory.) Firaxis proabably decided that it was too powerful without -3 Planet.