posted 02-15-99 06:03 PM ET         

On a huge map hive comes second because of their fast expansion.
On standard and large maps 2nd-6th place is fairly well balanced. But Miriam always sucks no matter what!
On the two small map sizes the spartans and Gians has the upper hand(also over UoP), and the rest is again fairly well balanced(expect of course for Miriam the Loser).

Personally I always play University, I really hate being at disadvange by playing someone else, just becouse Firaxis is bad at balancing.

posted 02-15-99 06:30 PM ET         

My personal top three factions would be:

1)
Morgan. With Wealth I get, for the most part, doubled energy production in the early game. Powerful stuff.

2)
Human Hive. The Hive is, in essence, the Anti-Morgans. But I like 'em anyway. They grow fast and build fast. And with Hive immunity to efficency, I can expand with no worries as well as use Police State and Planned with no penalties.

posted 02-15-99 07:36 PM ET         

"If you're not the UoP you're screwed." Please, explain, HOW.

Tech? Yeah right.

People seem to exagerate using technology to the extreme. But quite frankly, having good tech and putting it to use can be two wholly other things.

While the UoP is blazing ahead in technology, building deathspheres or experimneting with Cybernetic government, I can rally together other factions to kill them. Or, I can use mass probe teams to steal all their tech and then mind control their cities. Or, using the Hive, I can just expand around and contain.

posted 02-16-99 10:20 AM ET            

If you frequently trade techs with everyone (before they trade with each other) then all techs go through you: a Morganic take on tech, I suppose.

posted 02-16-99 10:35 AM ET         

Will any Firaxians be playing on Alphahq.net? It would be kind've nice to see if my Hive minions could try and tackle the creaters of the game

posted 02-16-99 12:08 PM ET            

I would rank the factions:
Gaian
PK (it takes some subtlety)
UoP
Hive
Spartan
Morgan (growth limits are a real drag)
Believers

posted 02-17-99 03:19 PM ET            

It really depends on your playing style. I'm incapable of playing the Hive, but win easily with the Morganites. I'm sure there's someone out there who's the exact opposite.

Pretty much everyone posting here has played Civ II, and I'm sure everyone has a different opinion as to which civilizations are the best.

posted 02-19-99 04:04 PM ET            

Their major flaw is that they seem to lack staying power. Well...there is a rather simple way to solve that:

The root of their downfall mainly seems to be Inefficiency, which stops them producing anything at a decent rate of speed. This is not an immediate factor, but something that only shows in the long run, as other factions start to outstrip them.

I solved this by switching my social engineering to Democracy/Green (Optimize for efficiency is the quick way)

I follow up by building Creches in all my cities, and also concentrating my Research on Weapons for a few turns...This puts me ahead in the military game to the point that nobody can touch me (especially with all the extra support and morale - although you are losing some support from the social engineering).

I have used this strategy to win development games as much as conquest games - Probe foils and just plain out demanding stuff are very effective when everybody is too scared to tackle you.

posted 02-20-99 04:54 AM ET            

I see that the traditional forums crowd (the guys on the boards like me since July and August) is totally vacant on an answer to this question, so I'll take advantage of their absense:

The Peacekeepers!!!!!!

I find (after playing all of the factions, and wining the game more than once with several of them, including a custom faction of my own) that the peacekeepers are truly ideal to my own strategy.

If...you are someone who likes to take advantage of building as many bases as you can by continuously building colony pods and filling all available space with bases and then pursue a strategy of working on maximizing growth potential...the peacekeepers were MADE for you (like me).

As the peacekeepers, establish a democracy and build Human Genome Project (if you can. Not having it is ok, but when you have it, you are truly unstopable). Democracy will give you a basic 20% bonus to the normal growth rate and you have advantages in terms of maximum population limits for bases (that REALLY comes into play when have exceptional growth rates like with the peacekeeper democracy). Then...having that extra Talent for every 4 citizens really helps out on various game factors. If you get Human Genome Project (Something every Peacekeeper player should at least attempt to pull off), you essentially get a perpetual Golden Age in every single base below about pop 5 (and dependent on other factors, it can just continue, especially when that second free talent for being the peacekeepers kicks in).

The bottom line is that the optimal early strategy with the Peacekeepers to build as many colony pods as you possibly can. Starting with Recycyling Tanks is a HUGE advantage, particularly when you aren't close enough to others to trade techs early, and even then it's still a big advantage. The starting production queue should be something like this (when you have the right techs):

1. Scout Patrol or Synthmetal Garrison
2. Recycling Tanks
3. Colony Pod (you can send the original defense for the colony with the colony pod, since you just built a new defensive unit in step 1)
4. Former
5. Scout Patrol or Recon Rover (to protect new colonies from mind worms. You'll find that new colonies will build their first synthmetal garison about the same time as the "colony pod building colony" finishes the next Colony Pod. The timing is near perfect.)
6. Colony Pod
7. Children's Creche, Rec. Commons, Network Node, or Energy Bank (just one of them)
(repeat steps 6 and 7 until local space runs out, then build up the improvements for this base, building no further colony pods here. Make sure to occasionally upgrade your military units)

In this manner, you expand VERY FAST. Your growth bonuses for being the Peacekeepers become phenomenal with so many bases (multiple bases better able to take advantage of the growth bonus). In normal or smaller maps, go ahead an pack cities quite close to one another, overlapping in areas somewhat in several places...the objective is to make sure that every space of available land will indeed be used for production other than fungal squares. This method maximizes the peacekeeper growth potential to quite madening proportions.

The idea is you just keep on expanding and expanding and expanding until you hit brick walls in every possible nook and cranny on the planet. The "core" cities (those that have stopped building colony pods because they aren't near the "frontier" anymore) just keep pumping out base improvements and secret projects with an added layer of impunity (because you have all of those layers of "periphery" bases around them building military units and doing further expansion). The "core" of your empire just keeps on builing toward the secret projects. If you go to war, it may become necessary to devote the attention of core cities to buidling advanced attack units while the outer layers concentrate on defense. That way the periphery defends itself while the core keeps pumping out attack units to send to enemy territory (since you can protect the interior with a strong exterior).

I find that this strategy works exceptionaly well for the Peacekeepers (who seemed to be specifically designed to take advantage of it) against both the AI (even at high levels) and human players alike. This strategy pretty much ASSURES you of being elected planetary governor, which can give you considerable economic rewards in addition to the other things you've already achieved. It is almost ALWAYS in your best interests to remain at peace, as the Peacekeepers relative advantage takes on stagering proportions when everyone is just sitting around doing peaceful development. Warfare slows down your growth edge and should be avoided unless vital interests are at stake (like someone directly impeding your growth or attacking you outright).

Make sure you maintain as many friendly trade partners as possible for both economic trade that happens automatically with the friendship treaty AND most importantly with the technology trading between factions. It's a basic rule to maintain as many trading partners as possible when trading techs, but this can actually become an advantage as the Peacekeepers because the peacekeepers' highest goals aren't really militarily achieved, so you'll likely be at war less and be one of the only trading partners of perhaps several participants in other wars, giving you a significant trading advantage (of course this is prudent for other factions, but factions such as the Spartans and Believers have to exercise military strength to realize their full potential, which makes enemies and decreases the number of possible trading partners).

Overall, I think the advantages the peackeepers have are truly stagering if the game becomes peaceful. If the game becomes really warlike, the peacekeepers can still hold their own, but the morale and attack advantages of the Believers and Spartans give them some advantages of their own (although UofP technology can help upset that, always stay in good relations with the UofP and Gaians as the Peacekeepers, these three factions are logical allies, never forget that). Alliance wise, I find the most effective strategy is to pursue the closest relationship possible with the UofP and the Gaians, who have compatable social agendas and compatable game interests.

Well, that's about it for my dissertation on the advantages of being a peacekeeper (people from the old forums will recall I've made this argument before, even before I played the game. It was only affirmed by experience, although I must admit I'm a bit biased :-) ).

posted 02-20-99 02:52 PM ET            

Like, good post. I play the EXACT same strategy as you, expand expand expand!!! It's so true, with this strategy your empire can grow to *insane* proportions. It hardly matters where you start either (at least not against the AI) because as you said you simply grow into every nook and cranny available.

I personally don't use the PK's even though they're probably best for this strat. Mainly because I CAN'T STAND Lal!! What a bloody hypocrite the guy is... "Peace"-keepers my ***!!!

posted 02-21-99 04:47 AM ET            

I find it works with most factions. The only two factions it really doesn't work with or Miriam or Sparta. The keepers are far from the best at it, IMO. On the other hand, they can go to war quite well if need be. I generally use the Hive with this strategy. I go Police State/Planned ASAP. The +2 police keeps the drones in line, while Planned provides the Growth. You also have much better industry than the Pks with this st rategy. Support isn't to shabby either:lets you support more formers, as well as the units you need to Police. I go for Industiral Automation quickly as well to get to -1 Economy.

Also works with Morgan (lots of commerce can rival Zakharov for tech), Gaia (effinency), and Zakharov (tech superiority is an integral part of this strategy.)

Sorry this is poorly written and proabably semi incoherent, I'm really tired right now.

posted 02-21-99 07:37 AM ET            

Strategy 1: Explore- Build lots of units quick, find the other factions in their hatching stages, take out as many as you can and surround the others. Best: Believers.

Strategy 2: Discover- Build a reasonably big empire and out-tech the others. Best: UoP.

Strategy 3: Build- Build a large, rich empire in preparation for a diplomatic/economic victory. Best: PKs, Morgan.

Strategy 4: Conquer- Build a large army and crush the others. Best: Spartans.

However, the OVERALL best factions, basically the only ones that can win in every way, are the Gaians and the Hive. The Hive has it's industry bonus and can build all three labs and lots of wonders in every city, meaning they can out-tech an equal-sized UoP (I'm doing that now). The Gaians with Worm Farming and Efficiency can beat them all...

This is what each faction can't do (from the four basic strategies):

posted 02-21-99 02:50 PM ET            

Comparing the Believers to the Spartans is really an eye-opener. Both factions have a large advantage in combat, the Believers a +25% advantage on the attack; the Spartans a 2 morale level advantage (under most circumstances).

A 2 level morale advantage is basically equal to the Believer's +25% bonus in most attacks. But the Spartan's advantage ALSO applies on the defense. AND it is better against mindworms.

To add insult to injury, the Spartan's start with a MUCH better tech (mobility) and they don't have the Believer's devastating research penalty. It's really pretty hard to think of any reason to choose the Believers when you can have the Spartans instead.

But I think the Believers are still a workable faction. They probably just require a very specific strategy.

posted 02-21-99 07:37 PM ET            

Long time no see!

I welcome the chance to yet again have our Peacekeeper-vs-Hive debate!

I'm playing a game as the Hive right now. Personally, I must admit tOFfGI that the Hive is amazingly more survivable than I had originally considered. The one BIG problem with the Hive is that they really only have one player that they're capable of forming a survivable alliance with...the Spartans. In both the game I played as the UofP (where the Hive was my major oppponent, but that was only because they had the large continent on the "map of planet" ALL TO THEMSELVES...) and the game I played as the Hive, the logical and only lasting alliance was with the Spartans.

However, I found the typical "build" strategy that I use to be quite INEFFECTIVE with the Hive the farther you go into it. The reason why is VERY simple, NO MONEY. The economy negative for being the Hive REALLY HURTS. My typical strategy of building tons of city/base improvements was simply unfeasable with the Hive because they couldn't afford all of them without jacking up the economy rate (which in turn downed both economy AND research by a certain percent.)

The industry was truly phenomenal, and the Hive can pump out military units better than any other faction, I agree. The CONSTANT problem was a complete lack of money. I NEVER had enough money to buy anything, I was always totally dependent on my superior industry to finish things, since I couldn't rush the production of even some of the most insignificant items (even as planetary governor, didn't help enough). I found that even at 70% economy in the late game, I could just tread water economically (even though the industry was sickening powerful).

Jacking up econ. so high to pay for all of the improvements was really harmful to competing with the other factions and it really helped keep the other factions in play. So it's my opinion that the crappy economy the Hive has more than makes up for their industrial advantages. As the Peacekeepers or Morgans, I would always more money than I knew what to do with, especially in the late game. I could always just BUY secret projects because of so much money.

The difference in the late game seemed fairly simple. Where the Hive could build a secret project in 20 turns rather than 30, the Morganites or the Peacekeepers could just outright BUY IT after 5-10 turns! (although supply crawlers helped, the Morganites and Peacekeepers were still more effective).

I have found the UofP very hard to play until you get your hands on Virtual World and Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, at which point they become MUCH more effective.

The Believers have been really wimpy in every game I've played, even when tech from conquest was turned on. I suppose the Believers would be MUCH more effective if a human player controlled them, as I'll bet a human player wouldn't feel obligated to declare Vendetta on 4 factions every game upon their first meeting with that faction (the AI seems to be SERIOUSLY inept in this area because the Believers are teh ONLY ones to establish a Fundamentalist government)

The Spartans are really tough, but once they get behind in tech, buh bye! I've found the Spartans are most effective when they ally with someone willing to help them out (which sorta defeats the whole "go it alone" Spartan mentality). As I said, the Spartans' logical ally is the Hive, they work very well together (every game I've seen that alliance, it has been VERY effective).

The Morganites tend to be one of the most successful factions until they have to go to war. I found that the Morganites would even be in first place if you left them alone long enough, but would plummet the moment they came into contact with say...the Spartan-Hive alliance...(in my game as the UofP, I was litterally protecting the formerly 1st place Morgan player, by then 5th place, from the Spartan-Hive Alliance)

Well, that about wraps it up. For the bulid-up strategy, nothing surpases the Peacekeepers. They tend to be all-around very effective if you use that strategy.

posted 02-22-99 04:59 AM ET            

Last time I teamed up with the Gaians, and we set out to "free" some Morganite cities ;O) worked really well, he is now down to 3.

posted 02-22-99 10:35 AM ET            

Their inefficiency penalty is easily cancelled out by democracy and green. That leaves them with only bonuses. The talent bonus is very good and the Hab bonus ok. And late in the game the double vote bonus can turn stalemate into victory. Their bonuses aren't directly powerful, but indirectly they add up.

As Jacks-of-all-trades they don't have to follow any single minded strategy. This makes them the most flexible of the factions. They work well on all map types and sizes. They can make war or peace equally well.

Their only drawback is that they don't have any bonuses that work synergistically with projects and base facilities to give them a decisive weapon. The Spartans, for instance, can build the Command Nexus, creches and BE centers to make their units Commandos right off the assembly line. Or the Gaian's can build Psi enhancements to make mindworms ultra-deadly.

On the other hand, the PK's can just concentrate on normal units. They do the job and you don't have to worry about countermeasures.

Hmmm, maybe the PK's ARE the best faction.

posted 02-22-99 04:16 PM ET         

It is not hard to win small conflicts militarily. Keep the battle contained and the low support will not slow your cities down at all. Use top-of-the-line troops well and probe teams if possible to apply enough directed pressure to first stop enemy advances and then crush enemy resistance.

When you can get into position for a peaceful win, get enough Efficiency to change energy settings into Research/Economy depending on Transcendance/Economic victory. You can also make lots of friends, throw around money, fight to contain those who dislike you and then get voted Supreme Leader.

I think SMAC is very well balanced. It's going to be a long time before any definite advantage can be found between the factions.

Personally I will play as all factions, and think that each is great when played in the right mindsets. I'll admit a _vague_ leaning toward Peacekeepers, the Hive and Morgan for strongest though.

posted 02-22-99 04:38 PM ET            

IT DEPENDS ON YOUR OWN PERSONAL STYLE WHICH FACTION IS BEST.

posted 02-23-99 10:17 AM ET            

The best faction to play is the one which suits your playingstyle best. If you like military units, the UoP and Morganites are probably not the best choice and vice versa.

posted 02-23-99 12:41 PM ET         

Every faction does have a disadvantage, but I feel that supply crawlers always fulfill those disadvantages. A few doesn't cut it, I usually build around 10 supply crawlers per city, before devoting it to build improvements.

At first to me, the Believers seem to be the worst faction, but using supply crawlers grabbing at least two energy each, I was defintely highest tech on transcend.
It does take a while to get industrial automation though.

As with the hive, you get mass energy this way.
spartans - minerals
and so on.
or otherwise,
low economy - grab energy
low efficiency - grab energy
low support - grab minerals
low morale - (I grab minerals so it's faster to build city improvements, raising this)
low police - grab energy (so psych is higher)
low growth - grab food
low planet - (i grab food so I can use green economics)
low probe - (I grab minerals so I can make probe teams protecting my own cities fast)
low industry - grab minerals
low research - grab energy

or just grab food
the more food, the more people, the more total resources

I like the gaians most because of their initial start with 2 food per fungus.
Putting supply crawlers on these otherwise useless squares makes it easy to survive with just forests around your cities early on. Since intitially, the fungus only produces food, your not wasting any resources, because you're grabbing the only resource they provide. You then don't feel guilty for not putting a city there instead.

posted 02-24-99 05:14 AM ET            

For pure conquest I LOVE the Spartans. Research lasers first thing and immediately you can send out a ton of 2-1-2 rovers. You can usually eliminate (or better, surrender to you) one or two factions extremely early. The real reason I love the spartans is going Green Police State (creches offset the growth penalty), then not only can you pump out high morale troops (especially if you build Command Nexus and eventually Cyborg Factory), but capture those pesky worms and use them to harrass other factions before bringing up your big guns. I don't put much into research as the Spartans, I like getting someone to surrender and give all theirs to me.

posted 02-24-99 02:33 PM ET         

Hive - Very Strong in the early and midgame, Weaker in the Endgame. Best situation is Police State, Planned, Knowledge with UOP and Morgan close at hand early. You need to wipe UOP off of face of planet early or it's hard to win.

PK - The average faction, no particular strengths or weaknesses either early or late. Best situation is Democratic, Any, Knowledge. Adjust the middle factor (Freemarket, Planned, Green) to jibe with your immediate neighbors to further your diplomacy. Team up quickly against any runaway military power or face the consequences on your eastern border.

Gaian - Solid developmental faction. Tends to spread out and grow in the early game. Midgame provides some difficult decisions, Mindworms are obvious primary assault weapon but other factions quickly develop counters. I save Mindworms for initial defense to insure that they work. Best situation Democracy, Green, Knowledge with PK's close at hand as a partner. You can always make this alliance work.

Morgan - Tough faction to play. I either runaway win early or get stomped. The primary problem is that best situation Democratic, Freemarket, Wealth is a) very successful early, pissing off the AI and b) very unpopular with planet, causing your perimeter bases to be picked off by Mindworms. When I start on an island I de-fungify quickly and tend to win, in other situations things can get hopeless quickly. I wonder if Police State would be a better choice, it seems to have worked for Singapore.

Spartan - I have no luck with this faction. In fact, I lose so regularly that I won't try to provide best situation. Primary weakness is the amount of time it takes to build more advanced units. I conquer whoever is next door and am then forced to watch UOP or PK or Gaians or even Morgan soar way above me in tech.

Believers - Research is so critical that I think this faction has no chance to win the game. Typically I am killed by choppers in the midgame. Turning on the Captured cities provide a tech option might make this group strong.

posted 02-24-99 02:34 PM ET         

Hive - Very Strong in the early and midgame, Weaker in the Endgame. Best situation is Police State, Planned, Knowledge with UOP and Morgan close at hand early. You need to wipe UOP off of face of planet early or it's hard to win.

PK - The average faction, no particular strengths or weaknesses either early or late. Best situation is Democratic, Any, Knowledge. Adjust the middle factor (Freemarket, Planned, Green) to jibe with your immediate neighbors to further your diplomacy. Team up quickly against any runaway military power or face the consequences on your eastern border.

Gaian - Solid developmental faction. Tends to spread out and grow in the early game. Midgame provides some difficult decisions, Mindworms are obvious primary assault weapon but other factions quickly develop counters. I save Mindworms for initial defense to insure that they work. Best situation Democracy, Green, Knowledge with PK's close at hand as a partner. You can always make this alliance work.

Morgan - Tough faction to play. I either runaway win early or get stomped. The primary problem is that best situation Democratic, Freemarket, Wealth is a) very successful early, pissing off the AI and b) very unpopular with planet, causing your perimeter bases to be picked off by Mindworms. When I start on an island I de-fungify quickly and tend to win, in other situations things can get hopeless quickly. I wonder if Police State would be a better choice, it seems to have worked for Singapore.

Spartan - I have no luck with this faction. In fact, I lose so regularly that I won't try to provide best situation. Primary weakness is the amount of time it takes to build more advanced units. I conquer whoever is next door and am then forced to watch UOP or PK or Gaians or even Morgan soar way above me in tech.

Believers - Research is so critical that I think this faction has no chance to win the game. Typically I am killed by choppers in the midgame. Turning on the Captured cities provide a tech option might make this group strong.

posted 02-24-99 02:40 PM ET            

"Scared?"

posted 02-24-99 10:46 PM ET            

I prefer a loose, adaptive style of play. As someone else pointed out, the PK's are great for this. They don't really have any glaring weaknesses, and they switch gears from peace to war rapidly. Besides, I admit I LIKE being Planetary Governor and having Veto Power. Yang keeps trying to yank it away, but with my own intrinsic bonuses, plus an Empath Guild (which I build to keep anyone else from diluting my advantage) I find that I can yank the AI around diplomatically. Miriam and Yang are almost always intractable, but what do you expect from ingrates?

posted 02-25-99 01:08 AM ET            

I'm going to re-post here the post I put in the Believer thread in the "Factions" forum:

The problem with the Believers is not the faction itself, but rather how the AI plays them.

The AI is incredibly fanatical as the Believers, this tends to get people pissed at them and they die a quick and painful death...

However realistic this might be (it is, this is just what happens to religious wacko's, quick deaths due to insanely fanatic stupidity...), a PRAGMATIC leadership makes the Believers quite effective. The Believers are incredibly effective with a pragmatic human leadership, and generally have been incredibly insignificant under the control of the rabidly fanatic AI.

just my two cents.

Arnelos
Peacekeeper
Keeper of Wisdom

That's what I had to say over there. To see the entire argument we've been having about the Believers, refer to the "Effectiveness of Believers?" thread in the Factions Forum.

posted 02-25-99 01:41 AM ET            

They also make a new campaign level every month, in addition to the map of the week program.

posted 02-26-99 11:11 AM ET         

Next, the UoP's have an advantage in that their two disadvantages, are not only offset by 2 projects (Hunter Seeker and Virtual World), but the UoP gains the full advantage of the project in addition to the disadvantage alleviation. Basically, while other advantages may counteract disadvantages such as max population limits, or inneficiency, the projects which counteract the UoP's disadvantages provide just as much utility to the UoP as they would be to any other faction (this is more true for the Hunter Seeker perhaps).

posted 02-26-99 01:45 PM ET         

UoP- 11 votes
Gains- 8 votes
PK- 8 votes
Hive- 4 votes
Morgan- 4 votes
Spartan- 3 votes
Believers- 1 vote

I'll add my vote: The Peace Keepers. I love the triple vote feature. Plus my cities are always larger when I'm the PK's.