posted 06-25-99 03:21 PM ET            

And anyway, Bill Gates is my best friend I just adore his ultra-stable operating systems and his non-bloatware Office suite. It's so compact and not at all annoying! I especially love Mr Paperclip!! And Active Desktop is a joy to use! Couldn't be happier with my mate Bill's products, me!!

Nell... who now can't be bothered to change ISP because it would mean having to tell everyone her new email address... lazy or what?

PS: From the Daily Telegraph, June 24th 1997
NO AUTHOR GIVEN, but still from the Telegraph, computing section.

posted 06-25-99 03:34 PM ET            

"and I pitty any girl who isn't me tonight, na na na na na...."

posted 06-25-99 04:06 PM ET            

Kitty:
Yeah, but it would have been greater if they'd resisted skipping the first verse of the song and going straight into the second one, eh? My Gran used to sing that song to me when I was tiny, and the first verse goes...

"I feel pretty, pretty witty,
I feel pretty, and witty, and gay..."

I guess Intel couldn't get that one past the marketing guys, huh?

posted 06-25-99 07:52 PM ET            

Resource Consumer
- unresiuorceful -

posted 06-26-99 02:43 PM ET            

JayPegg:
"Jar-Jar dancing banks"? Wossat? I gotta know, because it's obviously something I absolutely must rush out and buy... and as for the Queen Amidala headdress, well obviously I'm wearing mine as I type... hehe
No but seriously, product marketing does suck, but it's a fact of life and it's sad but true that Star Wars is such an institution that it was bound to be a real target for the marketing drones. I've emailed you a thing I found on the Net that I thought was quite funny... a rewrite of the Star Wars script... obviously written by a disaffected fan of the original trilogy, and worth a smile or two Although I still say TPM is a good film, marketing hype or not...

JohnIII:
Can't resist... Darth Maul is a hopeless, pointy-headed oaf who couldn't win a battle if his life depended on it... which it did, and he didn't, so QED. Oh and that face paint was really daft too.

Nell... with too much time on her hands

posted 06-26-99 10:35 PM ET            

Picker:
Sure, that was the best fight sequence I've ever seen, I think, in any film... it's even more impressive when you consider that the Darth Maul actor really can do all that stuff I loved the way they delayed the fight with those red force fields... it made it very tense. Great choreography!

LoD:
Hmmm now if you're talking about elves a la Lord of the Rings... all tall and beautiful and intelligent and wise and stuff... then yeah, I guess that they could have a bit-part in my heavily Ewan-based dreams! hehe

posted 06-27-99 01:23 PM ET            

Looking for a dark and depressing universe

posted 06-27-99 03:15 PM ET            

Kitty:
Give George Lucas time and I'm sure you'll be able to buy a full Queen Amidala outfit... the juggernaut of product marketing is unstoppable! Oh and I'm speaking as someone who's never owned (well, never bought - have been given a few) a piece of movie merchandise... hmmm do my SouthPark figures that sit on top of my monitor count as marketing devices? Yes? Oh damn

Valtyr:
You can't fight it... it's no use... Star Wars is everywhere... Jar-Jar toys coming to get you in your nightmares... kids dressed up as Darth Maul haunting your waking hours... give in now, don't try to resist The Force Of Product Marketing... many have tried, all have failed...
PS: It's a pretty good film y'know, and I guess talking about Star Wars beats talking about hats? Or maybe not?

posted 06-27-99 03:45 PM ET            

Any sighs of relief will be revenged by inclusion in even more forthcoming story-type drivel, by the way...

posted 06-27-99 04:31 PM ET            

Valtyr tries his Hellfire King's Bastard Sword of Haste on the evil that is Star Wars. No result.

Valtyr memorizes his level 15 Apocalypse spell and lets it rip on the Hollywood tripe. No result.

Valtyr sends 20 Singularity Gravships against the "no real dialogue, but oooh! lots of pretty pictures!" mass hysteria. No result.

Valtyr planet busts (?) George Lucas' home 50 times! Again no result.

Awwwww, I give up!

May the Scwartz be with you!

posted 06-27-99 05:26 PM ET            

John:
hehe... you can d/load a horrible camcorder pirate copy of it off the Net if you fancy 2 x 640Mb downloads... or just wait... and wait... for the next 18 days to pass...

Nell... still laughing

posted 06-27-99 05:51 PM ET            

Freen Cross? <memorising that in case a question ever comes up in Trivial Pursuit as to where Dave Pearce lives>

posted 06-28-99 08:16 AM ET            

"I was going to Tarshi station to pick up some power converters!."

"Shut up you spineless whiny kid, and don't think that your transformation into a Jedi and subsequent part in saving the Universe excuses you from squealing that high. You arse."

http://www.mystic4.freeserve.co.uk/mhdojo/StarWars.htm

posted 06-28-99 09:23 AM ET            

BTW, I just love the Cetagandan face paint job on Darth Maul. I wonder if Lucas is paying royalties to Bujold...

posted 06-28-99 10:46 AM ET            

Cool link btw

posted 06-28-99 01:08 PM ET            

Tension? There was tension in the movie? Where? It was way too high in the predictability department to have 3 drops of tension on the whole movie. Not the worst flick... but that makes it #3 out of the 4.

Quin deserved to die as the rebelious scum he was. Talk about a Sith lord in motion. [ For the sarcasm impaired ].

Seriously... Nell, you are just out of luck. There aren't many "good" villians. Although they are about the only thing that shows smarts on the Tele, now and again. If I see a promising villian though, I'll be sure to point him out to you...

And the marketting drive of TPM is a natural survival instinct. They spent over $750,000 a second on the film. The next, George is spending 1.2 Million a SECOND on. Or so he (and his accounting department) claims.

posted 06-28-99 02:59 PM ET            

I wasn't going to pay my own money for it anyhow, but a boyfriend offered to take me, so I was considering it. At this point... I don't really know.

Eris (Jedi knights don't wait 15 years for a sequel)

posted 06-28-99 03:33 PM ET            

I don't buy the Virgin Birth thing either... I think it will be explained in Episode 2 or 3... well it had better be, because it's not credible as it stands.

Oh and I've dedicated my life to seeking out "good" villains... you're right, there aren't many... they're either fatally flawed, ugly, unable to act, or all of the above. I've always had quite a soft spot for Q in Star Trek TNG, mind you... he's kinda fun in a malicious sort of way

John:
Yeah, Darth Vader was probably the best all-round baddie of them all... totally evil while still remaining cool, and still managing to exert himself to slaughter hapless minions when the mood took him. OK, so the Emperor was pulling his strings, but Vader had CLASS

Mike:
You wrote the stuff on the link? Brilliant... especially the cider references... those appeal to me, West Country lass that I am

Eris:
Never mind Jar-Jar and his cretinous accent... never mind George Lucas's vast budget... never mind the horrible merchandise... I'm going to go and see the film when it opens here for the sole purpose of refreshing my memory of the Sainted Ewan, and I can assure you that he's worth a few dollars of anyone's money!

posted 06-28-99 04:05 PM ET            

Go see it. Jar Jar isn't nearly as bad as say... Barney. The buzz I had heard about him turned my desire down. The movie isn't bad... if you ignore every other Star Wars movie. And we all know you throughout history, even when its the future.

Seriously, if your Boy is going to pay, let him. Its not a BAD flick as comtemporary films go. Now, please excuse me as I take up battle with the others...

Nell... GIVE ME A BREAK! That red force field was commercial filler time. You only like it because it was about HALF of Ewan's screen time.

And Obi is not an apprentice. He is a Journeyman... also called: Jedi Knight. Quin simply didn't promote him sooner as he liked having a friend about.

The GunGun shield is obviously a kinetic shield. Like in Dune. Slow and easy gets through. Standard Sci-Fi dietary seasoning. I am still trying to figure out the brain burp of indepentant robots that suddenly cease functioning because the mother ship blows. Something smells in Denmark...

As far as fights go... That saber versus staff sucked. It was below par for the current sword/staff fighting action cinematography. Once again, your Ewan bias is getting the better of your judgement. And NO fight is going to beat the Princess Bride's sword (Wesley) vs sword (Montauia) for amusement for a LONG time...

posted 06-28-99 04:19 PM ET            

There is one "bad" guy that I think you might like. Have you seen the most recent movie version of Cooper's "Last of the Mohicans?" It is an action packed romance that takes place in New York during the French and Indian War (Seven Years War). The bad guy is an Indian who wants to revenge the death of his family at the hands of the English.
Maughua (sp) is noble, brave, and a very skilled warrior. He just happens to fight on the "wrong" side and likes to scalp people.

posted 06-28-99 05:03 PM ET            

Darkstar:

"Nell... GIVE ME A BREAK!"

No no no no

"That red force field was commercial filler time. You only like it because it was about HALF of Ewan's screen time."

M'lud, I object... I honestly did enjoy the fight on its own merits... I thought the force fields *were* a good touch... and if I was to pick my favourite Ewan bit, it would hardly be the bit where he spends most of his time either off-camera or getting kicked in the head, now would it? Please, I may be a sad lecher, but not so sad as that!

"And Obi is not an apprentice."

Is too. Remember the final scene with Yoda, where Yoda says to him: "Confer upon you the rank of Jedi Knight the Council does". Up until then he was Qui-Gon's Padawan Learner, which is why Qui-Gon wasn't allowed to take on Anakin as well. "Impossible to take another", apparently.

"Quin simply didn't promote him sooner as he liked having a friend about."

I could get very catty here and suggest that, to judge by their behaviour in the scene where Qui-Gon bites the bullet, he was a bit *more* than a friend, but that would just be smutty. Bad Nell.

"The GunGun shield is obviously a kinetic shield. Like in Dune. Slow and easy gets through."

Well it's a silly invention... but then again, Dune was a VERY silly film. And an even worse set of books...

"I am still trying to figure out the brain burp of indepentant robots that suddenly cease functioning because the mother ship blows."

Yeah OK good point... battery backup might have been a good plan

"As far as fights go... That saber versus staff sucked. It was below par for the current sword/staff fighting action cinematography. Once again, your Ewan bias is getting the better of your judgement."

Can't agree. I thought Darth Maul was very good, mainly because he actually is a martial arts expert, unlike many stuntmen and almost all actors. I thought it was very well done... for me, at least, it worked. And think about it... it features mostly Qui-Gon, whom I can't stand, and Darth Maul, about whom I'm indifferent, so once again it's not Ewan-bias that's to blame. My favourite scenes with Ewan aren't the fight scenes at all, but I won't bore you with a list of them!

"And NO fight is going to beat the Princess Bride's sword (Wesley) vs sword (Montauia) for amusement for a LONG time"

lmao... OK you have a point... what was it... never match wits with a Sicilian? That's one of my all-time favourite films... it's a shame that Cary Elwes didn't make more of his career... he's a really good actor and deserved to do better than he has done.

Anyway, enough from me already!

posted 06-28-99 05:43 PM ET            

The guy in the Darth Maul costume moved well. I hope he can parley that role into something more. But the cinematography of the fight sucked. They were doing better fight scenes 10 years ago in action films. George Lucas should have payed more attention if he wanted to spend so much film time on it (especially since its a big plot device). Heck, I cheered when Ewan got kicked in the head (I'm sure you winced ). FINALLY, the staffman was using his obvious prowess to some advantage. He'd passed on so many other opportunities. Quin and Obi looked very poor in movement in comparison to the Maul. But my point is that whole sequence sucked. And sucked big time. Maybe its from years of all the action films I've endured, or having one of the world's top ranked juvenile Karate masters as a playmate and sparring partner growing up, but the action was sorely lacking a whole world of items. But if it did it for you, I guess it succeeded for part of the audience.

Once again, Obi was only Quin's student because Quin hadn't wanted to promote him, and thereby lose his friend and companion. Obi-wan isn't a Jedi Master, but he had been up to Jedi Knight standards for a while. They just make it official at the end of TPM.

posted 06-28-99 07:01 PM ET            

"Nell, are you SURE that wasn't half of Ewan's screen time?"

I haven't actually timed it, but look. OK I have a sad fetish for Ewan in his Obi-Wan incarnation. But this doesn't blind me to whether or not the film itself is any good. Honestly. And yes there are criticisms of the film, even if overall it was good, IMHO. I've emailed you a thing I downloaded off the Net which is a pretty accurate satire of the whole film... it gave me a laugh, maybe you'll like it too

"I remember seeing very little that just had him in it .... but Obi seemed like a bit player in the film."

Well now... I saw the film once in the cinema in the States, and have now seen it on CD-ROM about 12 times. Yes I am sad. And yes, Obi-Wan should have been in the film a lot more than he is, NOT because he's Ewan, but because he's a very central character in the whole Star Wars story and more should have been made of developing his character in the first film. Whoever had played him, he was made too insignificant and that's something I would criticise. Equally, the was too MUCH of Qui-Gon, who was a relatively insignificiant character, but even he wasn't fully developed. If anything, that blue flying git in the shop (Watto?) was the best-developed character of all, which says a lot.

"But then, I don't have an Ewan fixation, so maybe he just didn't impress me enough to even register in anything else."

He hangs about in the background in quite a few scenes, but should have been given more dialogue. And I'd be worried if you DID have a Ewan fixation... leave that to me, I'm getting pretty good at it

"The guy in the Darth Maul costume moved well."

Indeed. Very impressive moves, which was one of my original points.

"But the cinematography of the fight sucked."

Dunno about that... I'm not a cinematography buff. I thought the choreography was good, though, and the whole effect worked... i.e. it was an exciting fight, which is what counts?

"They were doing better fight scenes 10 years ago in action films."

Can't think of many... I still say it was well done. Just because there may well be better fight sequences out there, doesn't mean that this one was awful. It wasn't.

"Heck, I cheered when Ewan got kicked in the head (I'm sure you winced)"

lol... well... no, actually, I was just enjoying the fight... I'm not uncontrollably obsessed with Ewan, you know, despite appearances to the contrary!

"FINALLY, the staffman was using his obvious prowess to some advantage. He'd passed on so many other opportunities. Quin and Obi looked very poor in movement in comparison to the Maul."

What do you expect? Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor are actors, the other guy is a kickboxer and martial arts expert. Ergo, at some points, he is going to move better than they do. "Willing suspension of disbelief" is the phrase?

"But my point is that whole sequence sucked. And sucked big time .... But if it did it for you, I guess it succeeded for part of the audience."

Uh huh... even Lucas can't please all of the people all of the time, eh? Shall we agree to disagree, then?

"Once again, Obi was only Quin's student because Quin hadn't wanted to promote him, and thereby lose his friend and companion. Obi-wan isn't a Jedi Master, but he had been up to Jedi Knight standards for a while. They just make it official at the end of TPM."

Did I miss something? Throughout the film, Obi went around calling Qui-Gon "Master", and Qui-Gon referred to him at various times as "Apprentice" and "Padawan". In the Jedi Council when they are considering Anakin, Qui-Gon says that Obi is "ready to take the tests", meaning that he hasn't already done so and is therefore still an Apprentice. And there's Yoda's remark... "An Apprentice you already have, Qui-Gon. Impossible to take another." He was referring to Obi. Qui-Gon is a Jedi Knight, not a Master, and Obi is promoted from Padawan/Apprentice to Knight in the (almost) penultimate scene. And at that point he can take Anakin as *his* Apprentice. Sheesh, this is getting longwinded!

Nell... wondering if everyone else is sick of this topic yet?

posted 06-29-99 04:18 AM ET            

Nell, how can you say Dune was bad ? OK, the movie was not a masterpiece, but the *BOOK*, nell, the *BOOK* ! I'm not talking about the whole series, just the first tome.

That one is really in the top five, together with Asimov's Foundation, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Weis&Hickman's the Death Gate Cycle.

posted 06-29-99 04:53 AM ET            

Darkstar: *sigh*. If only you knew the half of it - there virtually isn't a movie or video fight scene that would pass muster against third grade showoffs these days. Give the man a break. At least his advertising is passable - I must get a copy of that 'Fear is my ally' speech for future reference.

"...doing better fight sequences 10 years ago."

Yes. And then some total moron, probably Jean Claud Van Dam, decided it would be cool to do stuff with hiden ropes and mini-tramps.

But seriously, I hope you're not talking about Kick Boxer or Rocky .

Personally, I'm starting to conclude that Darth Maul must have cut himself in half just before 'forcing' Ben off the ledge - how else do you explain his ridiculously delayed reaction to the Jedi's leap? Ben just reopened the wound one too many times for the Sith to handle.

A neat weapon though, the light sabre - cuts and cauterises in the same blow.

And it would be very amusing if Sicilious was Anakin's father - I hope this turns out to be true.

The excessive 'metachlorines' (spl? word?) would then neatly explain all three of them. Good call.

Although 'metachlorines' was about as dumb as the virgin birth stuff. Brought on I suspect by 23 seperate religions claiming the force represented something or other of theirs. GL might just be in need of an editor for the next fILM, lest we get Anakin talking to god...

Aredhran: I agree.

Jsorense: Are you joking? The early 90's version with Daniel Day-Lewis? Full of intelligent, merciful French, inept and arrogant English, savage and (on occasions) seemingly bullet proof indians and the unstoppable heroism and charm of Long Rifle, the Day-Lewis character.

I had to leave the cinema almost crying over the stereotypes in this one.

posted 06-29-99 06:04 AM ET            

[Bad Spanish Accent]
"My name is I�igo Montoya. You killed my faderr. Prreparre to die."

Shiny: I agree with the "stereotypes" comment on the "Last of the Mohicans". But the point is, the bad guy was really "good" (read "evil"), and the movie scores one of the best soundtracks ever.

posted 06-29-99 01:22 PM ET            

Obi-wan is a bit character in Episode one. But, like Lando, I am sure they will fill him out. They have to. He has to goof SOMEWHERE in guiding the Miracle Child of the Force so that the future Emporer can make him a Sith Lord. (Or so we presume.) And get the children that apparently Queen Amadalia will have by Anikan. Or so we presume AGAIN.

Now, that said... there were a couple of passing references in the movie that made me believe that Quin had not promoted his apprentice for the simple fact that he enjoyed Obi-wan's company and companionship. Apparently, Obi was more than ready. Obi, still being the dutiful apprentice, as well as friend, was required by tradition, and in the habit, of calling Quin "Master". That is a TECHNICAL matter. Quin rectified the official standing so that he could take on Anikan.

We seem to agree. What matter are you arguing? I love to debate and argue (which is why I DIDN'T become a lawyer... I didn't want to spoil my fun by having to do it for a living). I just need to know what are the sides, and which one you are on.

Shining1 - I thought the metachlorines or whatever it was, was HIGHLY lame. But it's probably just a PLOT DEVICE to help emphasis that Anikan is the most powerful potential Jedi ever known in their recorded history, and nothing else. And in a universe with such strong mental domination, it's easy to excuse Anikan's mother's lack of knowledge about HOW he came to be. Maybe it was the Force, maybe it was the Dark Side, maybe it was a Dark Man, and maybe it's a wild genetic experiment gone awry. Hey, she's a slave, and who's to say until George Lucas reveals it?

The supra fighting styles that you speak of are seriously sucky when done outside the context I first saw them... in the old Eastern Martial Art flicks where they leap half a mile in a bound and fight in mid-air for minutes a time. In that context, they can be taken as simply hilarious, or someone's envisionment of the legends. You pick your favorite. But out of context as done in a "Western" action film is just being Hollywood these days. Like the flashing knife fights between punks in which they are using very stylized and choreographed moves and seriously aiming for a "very short sword" fight action. But hey, obviously anyone that takes anything out of Hollywood TOO serious has problems.

posted 06-29-99 07:44 PM ET            

Darkstar:

"Nell... I think I will have to accept truce"

lol... sounds good to me... for the general good of the forum, I shall say no more about this... well, not today, anyway

Shining1:

"...but the first novel is virtually Tolkien as far as it's contribution to Sci-Fi went."

OK, I concede that Dune was the *inspiration* for a lot of subsequent books by other authors. But in itself, I don't think it's a masterpiece, or even a very good book. It had some good and original ideas, but Herbert didn't develop them... later authors did, thus ensuring Dune a place in the sci-fi hall of fame, but that still doesn't make the original book particularly good. And the sequels were worse... very much like afterthoughts, badly conceived and poorly structured. I found parts of the trilogy completely impenetrable... couldn't understand what was happening, or why, which can't be a sign of a good book... if the author had great ideas, he didn't manage to convey them to the reader, IMHO.

"Personally, I'm starting to conclude that Darth Maul must have cut himself in half just before 'forcing' Ben off the ledge"

lmao... yeah, either that, or he was so busy showing off that he forgot he was supposed to be killing Obi-Wan, rather than doing a formation lightsabre display for him... hehe

"Although 'metachlorines' was about as dumb as the virgin birth stuff."

I agree... midichlorians (or however you spell it) just don't fit with the storyline or the spirit of the original Trilogy... the Force is far too transcendent to be the work of some daft bacteria, or whatever the things are supposed to be. That was a mistake, as was the virgin birth thing, although maybe they will explain that in a later movie? I hope?

Aredhran:
"Nell, how can you say Dune was bad?...I'm not talking about the whole series, just the first tome."

Hmmm. Well... at the risk of earning your undying hatred, I can't agree... OK the first book wasn't too bad. But the second and third ones went from "not too bad" to "utterly dire"... those meaningless spiels at the beginning of each chapter (did you really understand what Herbert was talking about? I had no idea), and the ending (of the third book) was pathetic... I mean, nothing happened... the story just kind of stopped, as if the author had grown tired of it. And IMHO the quality of the writing itself was poor, never mind the storyline... did you read the books in translation? In the original English, they really were nothing, nothing at all, compared with, say, LOTR, which was written by a literary genius who could WRITE, as opposed to just stringing a story together. The Dune trilogy was full of half-developed ideas which never came to fruition, under-developed and transparent characters, and simple bad writing - unimaginative descriptions, convoluted and inexplicable plots, all the hallmarks of the bad novel. Which is probably why it made such a bad movie...

By the way, have you ever read Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast trilogy (Titus Groan, Gormenghast, and Titus Alone)? In my opinion, possibly the *only* work of fantasy fiction (though its subject isn't "swords & sorcery") that can compare to LOTR. It has some of the most beautiful descriptive prose and the most memorable and brilliantly drawn characters you'll ever come across.

<</arrogant self-opinionated mode>>

"that's probably because I have to wait until late August to see TPM"

hehe... it opens in London on July 15th... you could bring your Vangelis CDs with you and make a party of it...

posted 06-29-99 09:58 PM ET            

I disagree on nearly all counts with your assessment of Dune. Not only were the ideas there, they were well developed and quite structured. In fact, I would challenge you to find any other recent sci-fi novel that pushed the human development ideas as far as this one - not Iain Banks, not C.J Cheryl, not... er, who else rates more than a blip on the invent-o-meter?

All the quotes in the text actually make sense, when you've finished reading the book. (Which adds a new aspect to rereading the tome, if you're that way inclined.)

The characters weren't bad, either. And - most importantly - the ending was not crap. This happens so often these days it's not funny.

posted 06-30-99 04:53 AM ET            

I haven't read any Iain Banks, having heard that his works tend towards something of a cruel theme (he's the Wasp Factory guy, yes?)... I'm not too good with things like that... can't watch horror films either (I have the embarrassing distinction of having fainted at my friend's house due to trying to watch Hellraiser II... I mean, that bloke with no skin, he just would NOT get off the screen!)

posted 06-30-99 04:57 AM ET            

I can't come to London in July, unfortunately Would love to, though. Maybe some other time ?

Anyway, back to Dune (btw, I didn't fully manage to drive the conversation off TPM, but at least now we're discussing sci-fi litterature in addition to it )

I must admit I did not read Dune in English, and it was a while ago. Tome 1 was a blast, truly a *great* book (sorry...). 2 and 3 are an entirely different story though. I struggled through T2, and never actually finished T3. Like you said, the plot did not really make sense, the whole thing was messy and I got the feeling that Herbert was losing it. Maybe it's time for me to read it again, in English this time (I did not read much English back then)... If I can come by a copy, that is.

Oh, and btw Dune has one of the best movie soundtracks of all time (by Toto). But I already said that elsewhere...

posted 06-30-99 04:57 AM ET            

Wow... I had forgotten that line... haven't seen The Princess Bride for, oh, maybe five or six years? They never put it on TV . Still one of my Top 5 films though... and, bad or not, I�igo Montoya's accent really has... charm

posted 06-30-99 05:36 AM ET            

Also you should check out Iain M. Banks stuff (the M. in the name means it is Sci-Fi without the M it's non-genre stuff.) Good though. His sci-fi is excellent. I'm currently working my way through his stuff. The wasp factory was a bit dark but most of his stuff isn't as nasty as people make out, it might make you think but he gets away with stuff which ought to seem pretentious. He's not gentle on the reader.

Did you see the BBC adaptation of The Crow Road? That was a more typical representation of his non-genre stuff. The Wasp Factory is the hardest thing of his I've read and it is a bit disturbing. Not horror though really.

posted 06-30-99 06:14 AM ET            

"Nell, no flames from me"

Damn! Damn! I'll have to try harder...

I can't come to London in July, unfortunately Would love to, though. Maybe some other time?

Hmmm we'll have to see who makes it to the other's beautiful city first... I'm equally keen to see Geneva... although in addition to London, I can offer you the most beautiful place in the world... a little spot in North Wales, right off the beaten track and near where my mother lives... if ever there was a place where you really can imagine Tolkien's characters existing, it's there... a positively mystic place... but words don't do it justice, so I'll shut up

"I must admit I did not read Dune in English"

I've always thought that, to get a true idea of a novelist's skill, you have to read his/her works in the original language... this is particularly true, apparently, of the great Russian authors (Dostoevsky et al), which is a bummer because I struggle with French, and Russian is way beyond me. Apparently, though, reading different translations of the same book can give you a radically different view of how good the author is... because what you're getting is the creative skill of the translator, not the author. Hey ho.

"Oh, and btw Dune has one of the best movie soundtracks of all time (by Toto). But I already said that elsewhere..."

Indeed you did... and I agree with you about the soundtrack... so, any news on the Starman theme?

MikeH:

"I've seen the Princess Bride at least 4 times on British TV"

Not fair. How have I been missing it? Obviously I'm gonna have to stop watching the Teletubbies and actually pay attention to what's in the TV guide...

"Also you should check out Iain M. Banks stuff"

Don't get me wrong... I've heard (from a person whose opinion I really respect) that Banks is a good author, but that his works do tend towards the "darker" side of life, which can spook me, hence me not reading his works. The same goes for Brett Ellis Easton (American Psycho)... apparently a good book, but not for me... unless of course I want to give myself serial nightmares! Mind you, I saw an interview with him in which he admitted to most of that book being drug-inspired and cathartic, based on his own nightmares and bad trips, and he almost sounded like he wished he hadn't written it in the first place...

"Did you see the BBC adaptation of The Crow Road?"

Nope, for reasons stated above...

"Read 'A Player of Games' "

Not come across this, but I'll seek it out. For myself, I just love Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books... his Gap series was a little disappointing, but the two Covenant trilogies are great... he tries a bit too hard to be Tolkien, but even so, they're rivetting and well worth a read if you're into "swords & sorcery" as well as sci-fi.

Anyway... it's a bit early for me, too, so I'm off!

posted 06-30-99 06:44 AM ET            

And to answer another question, the 1492 soundtrack is a full album (like 50 minutes of music or so). The main theme "Conquest of Paradise" is there of course, as well as a few other magical tunes.

While on the subject of soundtracks, also worth mentioning are: Mission, Last of the Mohicans, Prince of Darkness, Conan the Barbarian

posted 06-30-99 07:02 AM ET            

His Science fiction stuff is a lot lighter. That doesn't mean it's like reading a Star Wars novel or something but it's more level. Still brilliantly written and still got a lot to say. Very imaginative as well. It's hard to find pure science fiction which has a new perspective but he does manage it.

Basically I love his work. If you hadn't already guessed.

"I just love Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books... his Gap series was a little disappointing, but the two Covenant trilogies are great..."

The amount of times I've nearly picked those up. I don't really read much Fantasy. Apart from Tolkien. I read Lord of the Rings again every so often and it astounds me.

posted 06-30-99 09:10 AM ET            

I'm sorry, Nell, but I must know: what drugs are you on? You didn't like _Dune_ but you liked the second Covenant series????

God, the first one was bad enough. It was an interesting story but I think that Covenant whined FAR LONGER than was strictly necessary. And if you read the first book directly after reading the _Lord of the Rings_ trilogy, not only does Donaldson come across 'Tolkienesque', you see how he outright is ripping off Tolkien. But I can understand liking the first series; none of its flaws were downright fatal.

The second series, however, was merely a waste of trees. It had too much in common with the first series and unfortunately mostly only had the bad parts in common.

I can understand not liking the Gap novels, though. They are a little bizarre. I like those I've read, but I have interesting taste in horror novels -- and that's what those are, regardless of how they're classified.

While we're on the topic, though, how about _Mordant's Need_? Of his stuff, it's easily the best novel-length (he's also got a few short stories I rather like).

posted 06-30-99 12:56 PM ET            

Nell, Dune wasn't bad, but its really an ego trip. The whole of the human race is about the hero? Come on. That's one SERIOUS ego trip. A Christ like saviour that fights back. Sorry, that makes it Mohammed, doesn't it? He was a soldier.

Jordan's Wheel of Time was about the best Fantasy I have read in a long time, but he's lost that freshness and excitement that he had in the beginning. In my [STUPID] opinion. Still, a good read. And I still am connected enough to several of the characters, so I want find out how it ends. Therefore, I buy his work and help kill a tree.

posted 06-30-99 02:21 PM ET            

Re Starman: yeah, I've tried every online CD store I can find, as well as the HMV on Oxford Street in London (world's largest record store, apparently) and nobody can track it down without knowing either its title or its record label, neither of which I know. It's apparently not called "Starman Theme"! Grrrrr.

Thanks for the info on "Conquest of Paradise"... I would try to persuade you to get hold of a copy of AudioCatalyst, but maybe better not...

MikeH:

I don't dispute at all that Iain Banks is a good author... but I still think I might find his works rather disturbing... it's a personal taste thing, I guess An ex-boss of mine, who was a really good literary critic, used to rave about Iain Banks, but he did warn me that I might find it to be not my kind of thing.

"You get so much half understood crap about drugs that it's good to read about them in a real life context who knows what they are talking about."

Surely the master of that particular field is Irvine Welsh? The Acid House is absolutely brilliant, both tragic and comic (if macabre at times) and Trainspotting is nearly as good (better than the film, which was also really good). I haven't read Marabou Stork Nighmares, but his latest (I think?), Ecstasy, is another really good book... four short stories, and one of them is the ONLY example I've ever seen of a man writing as a woman, and actually being 100% convincing. Superb.

"I also love the way he uses words. He's got a healthy disregard for traditional writing and he's not afraid to experiment with mixing linguistic styles."

This is another thing that Irvine Welsh does really well. He mixes all kinds of styles, and his stories written in Glaswegian dialect are hard to read at first, but you really do get into the dialogue once you get used to it.

"The amount of times I've nearly picked those up...I read Lord of the Rings again every so often and it astounds me."

Well, Donaldson isn't in Tolkien's league, but then again, nor is anyone else. But he writes a good tale, even if a lot of his stuff is lifted from Tolkien, which it is.

Eris:

"You didn't like _Dune_ but you liked the second Covenant series????"

No, I didn't like Dune, for reasons stated above. Yes, I did like the Covenant series, both of them, although I agree that the first trilogy is far better than the second. This is almost always the case with sequels... if the first series hadn't done so well, I don't expect Donaldson would have written the second, but the first one was so successful that I guess he couldn't resist the filthy lucre. Can't blame him, really!

"It was an interesting story but I think that Covenant whined FAR LONGER than was strictly necessary."

So do I. There was too much of Covenant analysing himself and suffering from angst. I think the idea was to make him a kind of anti-hero (or at least a reluctant hero), but the net effect was annoying. The story, though, was good, and not too badly written. However, it was obvious that the author had "thesaurusitis", as several of the words he used didn't actually make sense in context. He tried too hard to vary his adjectival phrases just for the sake of it.

"not only does Donaldson come across 'Tolkienesque', you see how he outright is ripping off Tolkien."

It's impossible to write a fantasy novel that doesn't emulate LOTR at least in some respects... as MikeH says, "Tolkien IS fantasy writing", insofar as he included just about every possible element of Western mythology in his work. Having said that, Donaldson does rip off LOTR quite blatantly, e.g. the Ranyhyn are heavily based on Shadowfax/Riders of Rohan, Covenant's wedding ring is a complete rip-off of Frodo's ring, etc etc. But Donaldson also had some original ideas, and some good new characters: the Giants (Foamfollower et al) were really good, and the sur-jheherrin were absolutely heartbreaking. And some good story elements too: the destruction of Lord Foul by laughter was a good idea and worked really well, I thought. I also liked the Elohim (the Old Testament word for angels, which about summed them up). So, OK, he plagiarised somewhat, but still turned out an interesting story that the reader could be bothered to read. Not great literature, but a good tale

"how about _Mordant's Need_? Of his stuff, it's easily the best novel-length"

The Mordant's Need series (duology? err) is probably better than the Covenant series, yes. Although there's some pretty heavy sexual innuendo in them, especially the second one, which sort of spoils them for me... it seemed incongruous in a "swords & sorcery" series. That's a small gripe, though. (Actually, with my weakness for bad guys, I rather liked Master Eremis, but there ya go... that's irrelevant to whether they were good books or not!)

"he's also got a few short stories I rather like"

AFAIK, there's only one book of short stories and yes, some of them are pretty inventive. "Daughter of Regals and other Stories", isn't it? I liked most of those.

Darkstar:

"Dune wasn't bad, but its really an ego trip...Sorry, that makes it Mohammed, doesn't it?"

I agree. The whole trilogy seemed confused as to what it was trying to say, or to be. But Mohammed sprung to mind quite a few times while I was reading it, IIRC.

I really have to stop waffling so much.

Nell

posted 06-30-99 03:33 PM ET            

Tolkein was, not, boys and girls, completely unprecedented and original. Really. Try mythologies of several cultures and the archetypal Hero's Struggle of rather ancient literature for why.

This does not stop LoTR and the Hobbit from being excellent books. Do not get me wrong. But I think, for instance, that _Mordant's Need_ is both a more intriguing story and better written. (And for all that Tolkien had a rather good story, to be honest, I think his writing is /not/ all that great; it drags horribly in places and his characterization is sometimes lacking.) Despite how I feel about the Covenant books, Donaldson /is/ an excellent fantasy writer, and also apart from the blatant rip-offs of Tolkien already mentioned, nothing like him or his works.

Likewise, I think Mercedes Lackey used to be an excellent fantasy writer, until she started suffering from Piers Anthony syndrome. Her stories were vivid, her characterizations usually fairly deep, and the spirituality interestingly presented. And, like Donaldson, her stuff is really nothing like Tolkien's, other than sharing an 'evil wizard' motif, which is hardly original to Tolkien.

posted 06-30-99 08:16 PM ET            

"Tolkein was not completely unprecedented and original. Try mythologies of several cultures and the archetypal Hero's Struggle of rather ancient literature for why."

This is exactly my point... Tolkien didn't *invent* his archetypes, nor ever claim that he did, but the reason why Tolkien is widely accepted as THE fantasy author is because he included in his works pretty much every single mythological character, concept and fairytale figure that has ever existed in the Western world. Hence, seeing as most fantasy authors borrow heavily from mythology, they can't help also borrowing from, or *appearing* to borrow from, Tolkien, who had it ALL in one book. He didn't invent the ideas, but he put them all in one place for the first time. He freely admitted, IIRC, that Merlin was the inspiration for Gandalf, the Little People of Eire inspired the Hobbits, etc etc.

It's the same reason as why Homer is accepted as THE epic poet... he didn't invent his themes, but rather he collected together ALL the ancient epic sagas and, being the first and the best to have done so, it's not possible to emulate him without at least appearing to borrow from him. There's no other original material to draw on, after all.

"his characterization is sometimes lacking"

Which ones? I can't think of any... they are all very vivid... I mean, think of Treebeard the Ent, Tom Bombadil, Sam Gamgee, Frodo himself, Gandalf, Sauron, Saruman, and (my personal favourite) Aragorn, to name a few... and what about Gollum? How many authors could create such a character, who really lives in the reader's imagination, long after the book has been read and put aside?

"her stuff is really nothing like Tolkien's, other than sharing an 'evil wizard' motif, which is hardly original to Tolkien."

He never claimed it was... but he drew the motif better than anyone else, in two forms: Saruman, the foolish wizard who falls because of his own pride and greed; and Sauron, the truly immanent evil presence, who is never even described and yet can be imagined vividly by the reader. That is quite a feat.

Most of the best literary critics accept that Tolkien *is* a great author, as opposed to a simply popular one, one who is quite good, or one who can tell an interesting story.

Anyway... any more of this and I will have to go and read the book again!

posted 07-01-99 05:11 AM ET            

Eris: Tolkien set out to create a mythology for Britain and he succeeded. It's a great story.

Nell again) The evil wizard motif, he also goes into the temptation of Gandalf. Showing in Saruman the ease with which power can corrupt.

posted 07-01-99 08:51 AM ET            

And yes, good point about Gandalf: he is the counterpoise and reverse mirror of Saruman... those two figures, together with Sauron, on my reading of them, are at least in part intended to demonstrate the old maxim "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"... the temporary rewards of evildoing vs the permanent, though slower to materialise, rewards of doing good... truly epic stuff. OK, it's a traditional theme from mythology and ancient religion, but it was still very well done.

"Tolkien set out to create a mythology for Britain and he succeeded"

Hmmm... I know what you mean, but really Tolkien simply modernised and co-ordinated the existing British historical heroes and mythologies, which are very rich and numerous. The first person who actually tried to write them all down (and it's a good job he did, or else they would have been forgotten) was a monk called Geoffrey of Monmouth, who travelled the British Isles in the 12th century, writing down all the local tales (both fact-based and mythical). Unfortunately he also made up a few bits, and there's no way of telling which bits are his and which are original material, but even so, he's the first acknowledged re-teller of British early history and mythology. He was the inspiration for Malory's Morte d'Arthur and almost every other fantasy/mythology author ever since. For example, it seems quite possible that King Arthur actually *did* have a basis in fact, in a King of Wessex who organised the local independent knights into an army (the "Round Table" of Camelot) and went over to France to fight. There is also some evidence of the existence of a great warrior who came from the west, probably from Ireland, in the early Christian centuries, who was called Myrddin - pronounced Meer-thin - (Man of the West), hence "Merlin".

Dammit, I have to get off this subject... I can go on about this for hours...

Nell... thinking of the cost of daytime phone calls!

posted 07-01-99 08:58 AM ET            

I should have said he set out to collate the mythology of Britain into a coherent story like the Greek myths or the Norse legends or the many other mythologies that Britain has lost by absorbing so many other cultures in the past.

Reminds me of Terry Pratchett's Ankh Morpock, Never gets subjugated because the invaders are just absorbed into the city. Must be an analogy for Britain musn't it?

posted 07-01-99 09:23 AM ET            

"the many other mythologies that Britain has lost by absorbing so many other cultures in the past."

But I don't think we *have* lost our mythologies... which, in any case, are an amalgamation of many others, e.g. Celtic, Norse, Roman... other cultures are absorbed, sure, but the end result remains more than the sum of its parts.

"I'm just trying to help the American stereotype of the English along. (By using Simpsons quotes, nice move)"

QED... we absorb influences from everywhere, yet still remain "British"... this has often been cited as a cardinal feature of the British character... the ability to absorb outside influences while retaining a coherent identity... for example, the quintessential British night out is now, maybe, to go and see a movie (American, most likely), go for a curry (Indian) and then get outside a few lagers (German)!!

Nell... probably hailing from somewhere in the Middle East, originally, if family name and looks are anything to go by...