punishment sphere bug. it needs verification

  Alpha Centauri Forums
  The Game
  punishment sphere bug. it needs verification

profile | register | prefs | faq | search

Author Topic:   punishment sphere bug. it needs verification

korn469 posted 06-19-99 12:16 PM ET
i was playing around with punishment spheres and i noticed they were not decreasing science for my faction. aceplayer said he noticed this too. i think it's a possible bug but i might not understand the exact way the punishment sphere formula works. i am going to be doing more experimenting with it and i need help if anyone knows the formula for how punishment spheres work then post it here. if anyone else discovers punishment spheres don't work post it here. and if i am totally wrong post it here and laugh at me.
exactly what number does a punishment sphere change? the book says it decreases labs by 1/2. so how exactly does that effect your research? would it be the same as having a negative 5 in research? does it just effect the lab bonus? how exactly does it work? ok for example you have zero on the research scale besides your headquaters it has three structures in it. a punishment sphere a biology lab and a network node you're taking in 8 energy total and 4 energy is going to your labs and you have a librarian in your city.
ok the biology lab supposedly provided +2 research. the network node supposedly increases research at the base by 50% and the punishment shpere supposed to decrease labs by 1/2. the librarian provides +3 bonus to labs. so how exactly does the punishment sphere effect your base? i have been playing around with them lately and it seems to have no effect at all. i am begining to think it is a bug. please if anyone knows the answers (like the formula on how it calculates the punishment sphere into research) i will greatly appreciate it.
korn469
like a researcher i'm looking for a peer reveiw of my study to back up my findings

korn469 posted 06-19-99 01:32 PM ET
after doing more research i proved myself wrong there is no punishment sphere bug
so feel free to go ahead and call me stupid
korn469
Resource Consumer posted 06-19-99 06:14 PM ET
Korn,
Don't feel so bad. I was beginning to wonder after my first dalliance with a PS and didn't feel that I was being clobbered on research. However, I retired it and I was.
There may indeed be a bug (historial precedent suggests that this is the most likely hypothesis) - just that we can't find it.
Resource Consumer posted 06-19-99 06:14 PM ET
That's "retried" for all you non-pensioners, by the way.
Alkis posted 06-19-99 07:12 PM ET
Hey friends,
It's easy to check that. You just go to the technology screen (f2) then BASES. You choose a base you build a Pun. Sphere and check the output before and after.
You know what? I did that for you. The result was, NO difference in lab output in that base. You can check it yourself if you like.
Btw I have version3 installed.
korn469 posted 06-19-99 07:18 PM ET
ok but here's how punishment spheres work. to make it simple i'm basing this on one city. take the total research number from your city (that's the raw number plus the bonus points) then multiply that number by the research penalty/bonus for your factions social engineering. this gives you the tech per turn number on the F2 screen. now if you have a punishment sphere the game multiplies the tech per turn number by 1/2 when it adds it to the total tech accumulated in the F2 screen. so when you have a punishment sphere in your city, you actually are only going to add half the number it has in tech per turn. try it it works. but in my game it's basing the turns till discover on the tech per turn number before it's modified by the punishment sphere. so it's saying i'm going to discover a tech twice as quick as what i really am. so i did find a bug, just not a big one. but all i got to say unless you know where and what to look for you're not going to see how a punishment sphere effects you.
korn469
Alkis posted 06-19-99 07:26 PM ET
Korn,
I checked again with another city. This time I checked the total research output as well. Again there was no difference. So it seems that Pun. Spheres have no negative effect as stated. If you think they actually have tell me where to look for it.
jimmytrick posted 06-19-99 07:28 PM ET
Good work. Someone needs to confirm.
I just can't get over the fact that Brian and Sid would let a game get out the door with so many goofs. Lets see how they blame this one on system configs.
SMAC is a great game in its current beta form. Shame its never going to be finished.
jimmytrick posted 06-19-99 07:31 PM ET
Alkis, if Korn is right you should be able to confirm by tracking the tech accumalated on the lab status screen. I think I will try to confirm it myself.
Alkis posted 06-19-99 07:39 PM ET
I did another check. This time I built a structure with positive effects (a fusion lab). I wanted to make sure that the new buildings have an effect on the tech screen.
They do! After the fusion lab was built the base's output changed from 66 to 81. On the other hand when a Pun. Shpere was built there was absolutely no change.
Someone said once, that this game has the touch of a genius. I agree. Only this genius didn't take the time to complete it.
laurens posted 06-19-99 08:24 PM ET
Like to add to the voice of the verificationists -
Spend the whole night doing it, and sadly I think there's indeed a punishment sphere bug (my research output wasn't affected). When I checked it the first time round, I was playing v1 and the research output was indeed halved. This time, with the v3 downloaded patch, I've got this problem.
So korn469, you might make a great research/scientist afterall.
jimmytrick posted 06-19-99 08:37 PM ET
I did a quick test. Korn is right.
When you build the punishment sphere - research for the base is halved, but it does not show on the base screen, or on the lab status screen in the tech generated per turn. But, if you track the tech accum. it is clearly being subtracted.
Therefore, when you build one or more of these spheres, you are indeed losing tech as advertised, but the information screens will be all mucked up.
Good work Korn. We will call this the Korn469 bug. Have you reported this to Firaxis? It's your honor since, as far as I know, you are the first to discover it.
korn469 posted 06-19-99 09:09 PM ET
jimmytrick
so is the time until you complete your research based on the total tech per turn before it is modified by the punishment sphere and it's saying you'll finish researching tech faster than what you really are? that's what it's doing on my computer. the punishment spheres work as advertised but the F2 screen isn't taking that into account. that's the bug
jimmytrick i'm honored to have this called the korn469 bug thanks!
korn469
jimmytrick posted 06-19-99 09:54 PM ET
It appears to me that you have it pegged. If I am wrong I am sure we will hear about it ..in spades...
aceplayer posted 06-19-99 11:38 PM ET
ok - this is what I did
I took a sav file - and changed the projects so that none would be completed the next year. I saved that.
Then I ran the it twice - once with a punishment sphere at a base with 8 research credits and 17 bonus credits - node (50%), fusion (50%), research (50%), biology (+2), and 40% social. 17 = (190%*8)+2
The base showed 25 research credits - with and without the punishment sphere. Also the F2 research screen (F2) showed 597.8 techs per turn both with and without the sphere.
Therefore - the punishment sphere had no effect on research.
I even ran the game for another turn to see if there was a delayed effect, but there wasnt.
jimmytrick posted 06-20-99 12:00 AM ET
Aceplayer,
That all sounds right assuming 597.8 techs per turn is tech generated. But what did the tech accumulation show? Run it a few turns both ways. Based on my tests you will see a difference in accumulation.
Which means that the tech is being halved, but that it does not show on the base screen or in the tech generated column.
Am I wrong about this?
laurens posted 06-20-99 06:34 AM ET
jimmytrick:
I think aceplayer means that the rate at which the research breakthrough is unaffected, disregarding whether the tech accumulated/research output is showing the halved output or not from the punish. sphere.
my case is this:
Take the one showing on the top of the F2 screen:
8 turns to breakthrough ... (without P.S.)
8 turns for breakthrough (with P.S.)
Anybody with different results? It would be better if we can get to find out whether the versions matter, though I think it's rather unlikely.
korn469 posted 06-20-99 06:53 AM ET
laurens
there is a bug with punishment spheres, but it's not what you think. punishment spheres work as advertised but there effect doesn't show up anywhered. however the amount of tech added a turn is correct. it is the time till discoveries that is messed up. if everyone of your cities have punishment sphere then it will take you twice as long as the buggy time till discover bar in the F2 window says. that is the bug.
do this. build one city put a punishment sphere in it with the scenario editor. then look number it gives for tech per turn. if you have a punishment sphere look and seehow much is actually added. it is half of the number it has for the tech per turn. however eventhough research is taking twice as long the number on the bar still shows how many turns it would normally take to discover tech. i counted how many turns it took me and that was twice as long as what it said. that's the bug.
korn469
jimmytrick posted 06-20-99 11:10 AM ET
Right, Korn.
The Korn469 bug.
aceplayer posted 06-20-99 06:34 PM ET
right - techs per turn is wrong
but techs accumulated is right
congrats
plus I learned alot about how research works...
laurens posted 06-20-99 09:27 PM ET
Thks a lot korn
perhaps I didn't really take notice of the no. of turns for the breakthrough
No interest to do anything with the Spheres now.
TheMadStork posted 06-20-99 11:45 PM ET
Can we clarify what the actual bug is?
Is it an F2 bug?
If so, is it in the # of turns being incorrect, and/or the tech per turn (and base)? I have never noticed a time when I did _not_ get a new tech during the turn predicted. Then again, as I build the appropriate facilities, the # of years has to increase, right?
Is there an F4 (base operations screen) bug (base rankings)?
Is there an F3 (energy maintenance) bug?
I have rarely /completely/ trusted the report screens for pure data like energy/turn. Somehow, I usually get 3 different amounts for how much cash I rake in.
Can we mere beta testers possibly be able to verify the possible bugginess of the total number of ways to get reports?
Fanning the flames of FiraxisSidBrian loyalty...
I go now.
To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


Hop to:

Contact Us | Alpha Centauri Home

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.18
© Madrona Park, Inc., 1998.

Author	Topic: punishment sphere bug. it needs verification
korn469	posted 06-19-99 12:16 PM ET i was playing around with punishment spheres and i noticed they were not decreasing science for my faction. aceplayer said he noticed this too. i think it's a possible bug but i might not understand the exact way the punishment sphere formula works. i am going to be doing more experimenting with it and i need help if anyone knows the formula for how punishment spheres work then post it here. if anyone else discovers punishment spheres don't work post it here. and if i am totally wrong post it here and laugh at me. exactly what number does a punishment sphere change? the book says it decreases labs by 1/2. so how exactly does that effect your research? would it be the same as having a negative 5 in research? does it just effect the lab bonus? how exactly does it work? ok for example you have zero on the research scale besides your headquaters it has three structures in it. a punishment sphere a biology lab and a network node you're taking in 8 energy total and 4 energy is going to your labs and you have a librarian in your city. ok the biology lab supposedly provided +2 research. the network node supposedly increases research at the base by 50% and the punishment shpere supposed to decrease labs by 1/2. the librarian provides +3 bonus to labs. so how exactly does the punishment sphere effect your base? i have been playing around with them lately and it seems to have no effect at all. i am begining to think it is a bug. please if anyone knows the answers (like the formula on how it calculates the punishment sphere into research) i will greatly appreciate it. korn469 like a researcher i'm looking for a peer reveiw of my study to back up my findings
korn469	posted 06-19-99 01:32 PM ET after doing more research i proved myself wrong there is no punishment sphere bug so feel free to go ahead and call me stupid korn469
Resource Consumer	posted 06-19-99 06:14 PM ET Korn, Don't feel so bad. I was beginning to wonder after my first dalliance with a PS and didn't feel that I was being clobbered on research. However, I retired it and I was. There may indeed be a bug (historial precedent suggests that this is the most likely hypothesis) - just that we can't find it.
Resource Consumer	posted 06-19-99 06:14 PM ET That's "retried" for all you non-pensioners, by the way.
Alkis	posted 06-19-99 07:12 PM ET Hey friends, It's easy to check that. You just go to the technology screen (f2) then BASES. You choose a base you build a Pun. Sphere and check the output before and after. You know what? I did that for you. The result was, NO difference in lab output in that base. You can check it yourself if you like. Btw I have version3 installed.
korn469	posted 06-19-99 07:18 PM ET ok but here's how punishment spheres work. to make it simple i'm basing this on one city. take the total research number from your city (that's the raw number plus the bonus points) then multiply that number by the research penalty/bonus for your factions social engineering. this gives you the tech per turn number on the F2 screen. now if you have a punishment sphere the game multiplies the tech per turn number by 1/2 when it adds it to the total tech accumulated in the F2 screen. so when you have a punishment sphere in your city, you actually are only going to add half the number it has in tech per turn. try it it works. but in my game it's basing the turns till discover on the tech per turn number before it's modified by the punishment sphere. so it's saying i'm going to discover a tech twice as quick as what i really am. so i did find a bug, just not a big one. but all i got to say unless you know where and what to look for you're not going to see how a punishment sphere effects you. korn469
Alkis	posted 06-19-99 07:26 PM ET Korn, I checked again with another city. This time I checked the total research output as well. Again there was no difference. So it seems that Pun. Spheres have no negative effect as stated. If you think they actually have tell me where to look for it.
jimmytrick	posted 06-19-99 07:28 PM ET Good work. Someone needs to confirm. I just can't get over the fact that Brian and Sid would let a game get out the door with so many goofs. Lets see how they blame this one on system configs. SMAC is a great game in its current beta form. Shame its never going to be finished.
jimmytrick	posted 06-19-99 07:31 PM ET Alkis, if Korn is right you should be able to confirm by tracking the tech accumalated on the lab status screen. I think I will try to confirm it myself.
Alkis	posted 06-19-99 07:39 PM ET I did another check. This time I built a structure with positive effects (a fusion lab). I wanted to make sure that the new buildings have an effect on the tech screen. They do! After the fusion lab was built the base's output changed from 66 to 81. On the other hand when a Pun. Shpere was built there was absolutely no change. Someone said once, that this game has the touch of a genius. I agree. Only this genius didn't take the time to complete it.
laurens	posted 06-19-99 08:24 PM ET Like to add to the voice of the verificationists - Spend the whole night doing it, and sadly I think there's indeed a punishment sphere bug (my research output wasn't affected). When I checked it the first time round, I was playing v1 and the research output was indeed halved. This time, with the v3 downloaded patch, I've got this problem. So korn469, you might make a great research/scientist afterall.
jimmytrick	posted 06-19-99 08:37 PM ET I did a quick test. Korn is right. When you build the punishment sphere - research for the base is halved, but it does not show on the base screen, or on the lab status screen in the tech generated per turn. But, if you track the tech accum. it is clearly being subtracted. Therefore, when you build one or more of these spheres, you are indeed losing tech as advertised, but the information screens will be all mucked up. Good work Korn. We will call this the Korn469 bug. Have you reported this to Firaxis? It's your honor since, as far as I know, you are the first to discover it.
korn469	posted 06-19-99 09:09 PM ET jimmytrick so is the time until you complete your research based on the total tech per turn before it is modified by the punishment sphere and it's saying you'll finish researching tech faster than what you really are? that's what it's doing on my computer. the punishment spheres work as advertised but the F2 screen isn't taking that into account. that's the bug jimmytrick i'm honored to have this called the korn469 bug thanks! korn469
jimmytrick	posted 06-19-99 09:54 PM ET It appears to me that you have it pegged. If I am wrong I am sure we will hear about it ..in spades...
aceplayer	posted 06-19-99 11:38 PM ET ok - this is what I did I took a sav file - and changed the projects so that none would be completed the next year. I saved that. Then I ran the it twice - once with a punishment sphere at a base with 8 research credits and 17 bonus credits - node (50%), fusion (50%), research (50%), biology (+2), and 40% social. 17 = (190%*8)+2 The base showed 25 research credits - with and without the punishment sphere. Also the F2 research screen (F2) showed 597.8 techs per turn both with and without the sphere. Therefore - the punishment sphere had no effect on research. I even ran the game for another turn to see if there was a delayed effect, but there wasnt.
jimmytrick	posted 06-20-99 12:00 AM ET Aceplayer, That all sounds right assuming 597.8 techs per turn is tech generated. But what did the tech accumulation show? Run it a few turns both ways. Based on my tests you will see a difference in accumulation. Which means that the tech is being halved, but that it does not show on the base screen or in the tech generated column. Am I wrong about this?
laurens	posted 06-20-99 06:34 AM ET jimmytrick: I think aceplayer means that the rate at which the research breakthrough is unaffected, disregarding whether the tech accumulated/research output is showing the halved output or not from the punish. sphere. my case is this: Take the one showing on the top of the F2 screen: 8 turns to breakthrough ... (without P.S.) 8 turns for breakthrough (with P.S.) Anybody with different results? It would be better if we can get to find out whether the versions matter, though I think it's rather unlikely.
korn469	posted 06-20-99 06:53 AM ET laurens there is a bug with punishment spheres, but it's not what you think. punishment spheres work as advertised but there effect doesn't show up anywhered. however the amount of tech added a turn is correct. it is the time till discoveries that is messed up. if everyone of your cities have punishment sphere then it will take you twice as long as the buggy time till discover bar in the F2 window says. that is the bug. do this. build one city put a punishment sphere in it with the scenario editor. then look number it gives for tech per turn. if you have a punishment sphere look and seehow much is actually added. it is half of the number it has for the tech per turn. however eventhough research is taking twice as long the number on the bar still shows how many turns it would normally take to discover tech. i counted how many turns it took me and that was twice as long as what it said. that's the bug. korn469
jimmytrick	posted 06-20-99 11:10 AM ET Right, Korn. The Korn469 bug.
aceplayer	posted 06-20-99 06:34 PM ET right - techs per turn is wrong but techs accumulated is right congrats plus I learned alot about how research works...
laurens	posted 06-20-99 09:27 PM ET Thks a lot korn perhaps I didn't really take notice of the no. of turns for the breakthrough No interest to do anything with the Spheres now.
TheMadStork	posted 06-20-99 11:45 PM ET Can we clarify what the actual bug is? Is it an F2 bug? If so, is it in the # of turns being incorrect, and/or the tech per turn (and base)? I have never noticed a time when I did _not_ get a new tech during the turn predicted. Then again, as I build the appropriate facilities, the # of years has to increase, right? Is there an F4 (base operations screen) bug (base rankings)? Is there an F3 (energy maintenance) bug? I have rarely /completely/ trusted the report screens for pure data like energy/turn. Somehow, I usually get 3 different amounts for how much cash I rake in. Can we mere beta testers possibly be able to verify the possible bugginess of the total number of ways to get reports? Fanning the flames of FiraxisSidBrian loyalty... I go now.