posted 06-18-99 11:05 AM ET         

It appears that Yin unilaterally deleted the thread.
If this is what the edit function is used for,
PLEASE LEAVE IT OFF THIS FORUM.

With a new Webmaster starting on Monday, it probably did not fit in with the Apolyton clique's ideas of how this and the firaxis forums should be run, as some of the ideas could be to their detriment, and seeing that Yin is now a sycophant of that board, it is to be expected.

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

posted 06-18-99 12:28 PM ET            

Normally, the edit button does NOT have that feature on it. I've explained what happened on the Firaxis site, beneath your post. You called me an 'idiot.' In this case, there's some truth to that. But my intentions were entirely good, I assure you. In fact, far from trying to suck-up to the Firaxis people, I was actually leaving, which explains in part why I took down the thread--I wanted to give Stephen a Yin-less environment so he could institute his plans.

posted 06-18-99 08:15 PM ET            

I appreciate your understanding. Sincerely. And I also take your 'exit' comment to heart. In the heat of the moment, I thought I was helping Stephen--and I went about it the wrong way.

And now, in the heat of the moment, Stephen is trying to bail me out of my own predicament. As such, I think he misrepresented himself. In nearly every e-mail I have exchanged with him, he has expressed his hope that the forum(s) would be an open place, free of thread closings and such. In fact, that's why he wouldn't let me moderate the suggestions forum at first. He truly wants people to enjoy themselves, and I think he hates the entire idea that anybody would post something sick enough to need closing (Nazi propoganda, for example--well, that's one of MY personal things I would censor, but Stephen might not).

Anyway, the General forum has no moderator. That's Stephen's signal that people should feel free to post whatever they want. Ideally, of course, Civ3 related, but general forums are never 100% on-topic. And who would want them to be?

posted 06-18-99 09:47 PM ET         

I can see how the problem occurred, and accept the reasons.

But Yin � "The contentious one"� cutting a post to make life easier for the Powers That Be, I find impossible to reconcile.
It flies like a duck, it looks like a duck, you may call it a pigeon if you like, but that stool it's sitting on still spells Mallard to me.

Stephen Lee

Yes lets get a few things straight�
At no time have I mentioned you in a deprecatory manner. My only fear is that this board will become an offshoot of Apolyton, which is more confirmed by your reasoning.

"ACHTUNG mine COMMANDANT" �..THOU shall not complain�.THOU shall obey SLF and his annointed minions�..
____Sound of jackboot heels clicking_____

posted 06-19-99 03:10 AM ET         

I have read that the road to hell is paved with those same good intentions.
But even a cursory reading of both Yin and SLF's posts lead only to one conclusion.
Apolyton rules.

First, we have what now appears to be an upstart schoolboy, on unpaid training, playing soldiers with other schoolboys��. (check the timestamp)
Next, we have the current day to day management of Apolyton, and most of their infantile posters, piddling in SLF's pocket�.. read some of the threads.
Further, we have a wannabee, who was flamed out of this forum, I wonder why,
and fled to Apolyton to continue the piddling of pockets
If we add the fact that a new real webmaster is starting next week, who might, just might, leave already established positions alone, it is imperative they move now.

You, OW, may approve of handmarks on both sides of the face, that is your prerogative.
To me, turning the other cheek is anathema.

Obviously Yin has what his ego required, control of a forum.
Also the thread�."DanS=�.. " is a worry.

I, like you, would like to be able to post reasonable comments on the Firaxis board, but I fear that this now relies on wannabe's for their approval�..Again only time will tell�.

posted 06-19-99 07:55 AM ET            

If you want to help make the list, please do. Civ3 is a gamer's game, after all.

As for your revisionistic history of who "Yin" was or wasn't to this forum, you are free to draw your own conclusions. The fact is I came in screaming because I thought Firaxis wouldn't listen. But they DID listen--not perfectly and not always quickly. But they did. Of course, not until I learned to lead with something positive.

Hey, I enjoy the rebellion against the system trip, but it burns you out. At some point, you just shut up or help. I shut up for a time then decided to help. If this means I'm stripped of my "Freedom Trail" badge, so be it.

If you had any idea, however, of how much time all this "ego" work is taking me, you might rethink your approach (though maybe not, since you want to get me on a rant). I just finished answering 20 e-mails: That arrived after being away from my computer for only 4 hours. I'd say, at this point, I'm spending a good 2-3 hours JUST answering e-mails. Now, this will settle down, but even in a lull, I spend at least an hour/day on stuff like that just to not fall behind.

Then, all the little things involved with maintaining the forums add up. That takes another hour each day--easily. Minimum. If big things need to be done, like setting up an entire new structure on another fourm, the time involved grows exponentially.

Now, I work two jobs, taking about 70 hours a week. I have NO days off. Yes. None. So, why the hell would I force another 2-5 hours a day on myself doing this stuff? Ego? My ego was shattered long ago when I started getting stuff that verged on hate mail because I made mistakes doing this or that. For every nice comment I get, I get 4 complaints. But I choose to focus on the positive.

I guess my therapy started on this forum by being an ass. It was a release. Now I'm finding my therapy by trying to help Firaxis achieve some of the very things I bitched at them to do: Namely, to listen to us. I think it would be the highest mark of hypocrisy NOT to take the chance to help the fans organize themselves and get a quality wish list together to give Firaxis a fighting chance of implementing what we want.

I went to Apolyton because of the good support Mark and Dan show for the games. THEY were postitive and willing to see good things happen when most people weren't even paying attention anymore. Their genuine enjoyment of these games and the forums is contagious. What can I say? If anything forced me away from here, it was my own early history of flame-wars and just basic screwing around that made me want to move on. Plus, I had played enough games of SMAC to live two life-times.

Anyway, the game will be released without you, me or any of these ideas. I realize that perhaps more than anybody. But even a failure in a postive direction seems more satisfying than wallowing in a victory for another empty post and another missed opportunity. Hard to believe, I guess, but all this has made me immensely more humble than when I first got here.

posted 06-19-99 12:05 PM ET         

I fully appreciate that your work schedule keeps you busy, and that your therapy appears to be working, and I'm glad you're happy in your work.

BUT
Look at it from another's point of view.
It was you, not me, that made that post.
It was you, not me. who stated that Stephen was not up to the job, even though I totally agree.
I thanked you for helping to make the forums usable and added my thoughts.
The thread appeared to be a lot more sensible than most on the whole board.
Suddenly no thread and a post in a completely different forum, stating that Yin has seen the error of his ways.
Slowly it emerges that Yin is now moderator of the forum. Dare I say Quid Pro Quo, a post unflattering to SLF vanished.
I believe the old Yin, looking from where I sit, would have been much more scathing.
Further, to the crux of the matter, this was all done in an underhanded manner, which you yourself state�20 e_mails in 4 Hrs�..
20 pieces of censored information, which will only see the light of day if you feel like showing them, hidden agenda's.

Enough of my bile. To paraphrase OldWarrior, "It's your puppy", so you feed it. To my mind Firaxis Forums suck at present, and I wish Dan lots of luck to try and improve them.
I, like OW will be very careful from now on, and keep my thoughts to myself.

posted 06-19-99 07:48 PM ET            

I understand your point of view. Truly. By the way, those 20 e-mails were just things like people asking to help out--they weren't secretive things. And each time, I basically told people to post their requests/thoughts/concerns on the appropriate forum so we ALL know what's going on. Trust me. I don't want any surprises for anybody on this. That happened last time at Apolyton. I've learned my lessons (hopefully ).

Yes, Stephen and I had a rough spot there for a few days, and I think he ultimately realized only a very sick person would want to try to sort all this out. Plus, I think he also realized that an "official" Firaxis person can only lose by getting involved in something like this--eventually he would make some mistakes, and that would mean Firaxis is making mistakes (well, some people would see it that way). If I make mistakes--well, people expect that already!

Anyway, I just see that Firaxis is at least open to doing some interesting things with the Internet (finally). True, a list-making drive is still essentially the fans' work, but at least it has been given "official" recognition. And I'm very much with you: I hope Dan takes it to a much higher level.

Again, deleting my threads was done in haste, in a 'hazzy' state of mind (no sleep), and in part to see: Will it really delete the thread? I also pulled a fire-alarm in the 5th grade 'just to test it--I'm doing people a favor by testing this, right?'

Well, after being whipped by my father's belt a dozen times after being sent home by the principal, I realized: "You know, the world doesn't seem to appreciate the tests I undertake to make this a better place for us all."

Yes. Deleting the thread was a 5th grader's move that combined misguided intentions and curiosity. I'll try to remember the beating my dad gave me the next time such thoughts come to mind.

Anyway, I would just much rather work with you on all this. You raised very valid criticisms and have given support when you felt it was due. What more can anybody expect?